What are Super's major Plotholes and Retcons so far?

[MaskedRider]

A part of me sees how Super can sound like fan fiction but on the other hand you could say that about any addition to any franchise. It also doesn't help that at least two decades worth of fan fiction material have been out on the internet that would make any what would be thought original that could be traced back to some obscure fan story or drawing.

Z sounds like fan fiction too if you play with words. "Oh yeah Goku has an evil brother, Oh yeah Vegeta's kid from the future time travels, Oh yeah there is YET another Saiyan transformation with different grades, Oh yeah Goku and Vegeta's kids can fuse" like, I don't hate it but I'm just saying.

What DBFZ is doing looks more in tune with what bad fan fiction would sound like where "Oh yeah, you have clones of the main cast but evil" but to be fair I don't know what the story is so I'll have to wait.

BoG and RoF do sound like they come from fan fiction with SSG and Freeza's resurrection but its not so bad when played out. A powerful God uses his divine resources, we're speaking in a Dragon Ball context, in order to find an opponent that would give him the run for his money that he has been waiting for. Freeza's empire is crumbling since the loss of Freeza and his father so in order to get it back in shape they do what fans have been saying to almost any problem in DB for years..."Well...why don't they just use the dragon balls to...!" Everything after connects with previous arcs or story and fits organically with previous installments.

At the end of the day its bullshit but I believe it.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

Frost not using his 100% Power Final Form during the U6 vs U7 Tournament is a plothole.

[Grimlock]

Frost not using his 100% Power Final Form during the U6 vs U7 Tournament is a plothole.

Why?

[Hakaishin Liquir]

Frost not using his 100% Power Final Form during the U6 vs U7 Tournament is a plothole.

Why?

It makes no sense for him to not use it when SSJ Goku was kicking his ass.

During the Namek Saga, Final Form Frieza at 2% of his power, which is apparently noticeably stronger than 3rd Form Frieza, was equal to Base Goku, and Full Power Frieza was equal to 80% of SSJ Goku. 3rd Form Frost was equal to Base Goku, which means that the gap between Base Goku and Full Power Frost should have been even greater than the gap between Base Goku and Full Power Frieza, and Full Power Frost would be nearly equal to SSJ Goku, if not stronger.

So it makes no sense for Frost to not use this form in the previous tournament when he was getting no sold by SSJ Goku.

[Tombstone1988]

At this point, can we call the Saiyans' attitudes towards powering up a retcon? You never saw Goku fight Android 19 or Perfect Cell or Majin Buu in his base form. Gohan didn't try taking on Super Buu in his base form before finally going mystic/ultimate. In Z, if a character was stronger than our heroes and they could transform, they transformed. Now in Super, at least in this tournament, Saiyans apparently prefer taking damage and potentially getting eliminated over transforming. Gohan against Jimeze in this most recent episode and Freeza's comment in regards to that pretty much cements this to me.

If it's not a retcon, it's at the very least incredibly silly.

[MaskedRider]

Guys, a plot hole isn't "well why didn't they..." or "how come..." a plot hole is more in line with "its stated the dragon balls can't be used until next year after activated but the cast used it where a year hasn't passed." and a retcon is more "in the movies Beerus states that 1+1 = 2 but in Super he NOW states 1 + 1 = 3"

[precita]

At this point, can we call the Saiyans' attitudes towards powering up a retcon? You never saw Goku fight Android 19 or Perfect Cell or Majin Buu in his base form. Gohan didn't try taking on Super Buu in his base form before finally going mystic/ultimate. In Z, if a character was stronger than our heroes and they could transform, they transformed. Now in Super, at least in this tournament, Saiyans apparently prefer taking damage and potentially getting eliminated over transforming. Gohan against Jimeze in this most recent episode and Freeza's comment in regards to that pretty much cements this to me.

If it's not a retcon, it's at the very least incredibly silly.

Yeah, Toei did some things like this in the movies, but it never happened in the anime with canon Toriyama material.

[Tombstone1988]

a retcon is more "in the movies Beerus states that 1+1 = 2 but in Super he NOW states 1 + 1 = 3"

That's an example of a retcon. The dictionary definition of retcon is "(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency." Freeza in Super claiming Saiyans delay transforming when fighting strong opponents compared to Z having Saiyans transform immediately against strong opponents sounds pretty close to that definition. Super has a different interpretation (delayed transformations) than Z (immediately transforming).

Apologies if you weren't directing that comment at me.

[MaskedRider]

a retcon is more "in the movies Beerus states that 1+1 = 2 but in Super he NOW states 1 + 1 = 3"

That's an example of a retcon. The dictionary definition of retcon is "(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency." Freeza in Super claiming Saiyans delay transforming when fighting strong opponents compared to Z having Saiyans transform immediately against strong opponents sounds pretty close to that definition. Super has a different interpretation (delayed transformations) than Z (immediately transforming).

Apologies if you weren't directing that comment at me.

Sort of but I'm sorry if I sounded aggressive. I thought it was a bit reaching that we're going on about attitudes as well and it came off as being nitpicky to me. There are other examples in this thread that I could have wrote that comment any other time but I thought it would eventually fade away.

[Tombstone1988]

Sort of but I'm sorry if I sounded aggressive. I thought it was a bit reaching that we're going on about attitudes as well and it came off as being nitpicky to me. There are other examples in this thread that I could have wrote that comment any other time but I thought it would eventually fade away.

Nah, it's all good. I browsed the rest of the thread and I can see what you mean. I might've been a bit too defensive with my rebuttal, so apologies.

[Esfír Dedragón]

There are many to list, but there are a handful that just make me want to destroy something/someone... figuratively speaking.

Retcons:
1) The Pilaf Gang being kids again and being involved with the rest of the Dragon Ball characters (I will never get tired of mentioning this one)
2) The Potara earrings no longer allowing permanent fusion. (The could have easily fixed this one by using Gowasu's potaras and state that different potaras from different universes work differently, but whatever)
3) Vegeta's motivations to surpass Goku after the Majin Buu saga. (I despise this change that occurred just for the sake of the plot)

Plot-holes
1) Time-travel during the Future Trunks arc. (The amount of paradoxes and logical impossibilities achieved by breaking its own rules is mind-boggling)
2) Future Trunks hair color changing from lavender to blue. (No reason is ever given. No question is ever asked. THE MANDELA EFFECT DOES NOT APPLY HERE!)
3) A lack of aging for major and minor characters. (self-explanatory)

[Lord Beerus]

Frost not using his 100% Power Final Form during the U6 vs U7 Tournament is a plothole.

Why?

It makes no sense for him to not use it when SSJ Goku was kicking his ass.

During the Namek Saga, Final Form Frieza at 2% of his power, which is apparently noticeably stronger than 3rd Form Frieza, was equal to Base Goku, and Full Power Frieza was equal to 80% of SSJ Goku. 3rd Form Frost was equal to Base Goku, which means that the gap between Base Goku and Full Power Frost should have been even greater than the gap between Base Goku and Full Power Frieza, and Full Power Frost would be nearly equal to SSJ Goku, if not stronger.

So it makes no sense for Frost to not use this form in the previous tournament when he was getting no sold by SSJ Goku.

It wouldn't have made any difference. Goku could have just transformed into SSJ2, SSJ3 or SSJG and just kicked his ass in respone. In fact, it would have been counter productive for Frost to use his 100% Power Final Form. Think about it. Frost's 100% Final Form is identical to that of Freeza's case on Namek when he used his 100% Power Final Form in response to getting dominated by SSJ Goku. Frost would have gassed out quickly if he bulked up to 100% and Goku would have an easier time defeating him.

[Beerus-sama]

Retcons
- The potara earrings working diferently now.
-Goku SSG being a six to Beerus' 10 (though I don't mind it )

Plothole
- Future Trunks hair (Although I like it).

For Z's end
- the 5 years without seing each other.
- Uub's existence to Vegeta
- Gohan living in a diferent place and not Next door from Goku and Chichi.
- The 10 years of peace aren't that peaceful now that Freeza attacked earth, F. Trunks lost his timeline and the Universe is now in danger, are they?

[Omori]

For Z's end
- the 5 years without seing each other.
- Uub's existence to Vegeta
- Gohan living in a diferent place and not Next door from Goku and Chichi.
- The 10 years of peace aren't that peaceful now that Freeza attacked earth, F. Trunks lost his timeline and the Universe is now in danger, are they?

Good points, but weren't there mentioned 'ten years of piece'? Wasn't it just like 'ten years has passed'? I think the '5 year line' can be fixed since Goku isn't that accurate with remembering time.

Let me add the ones with concern me the most:
- 5 Supreme Kais in Universe 7 (hopefully that will be fixed at some point, even if Toyo adds a one-liner on that in the manga, but not just ignoring that like now)
- Trunks, Goten, Maron not visible aging (I actually wish for a proper official timeline)
- some age conflicts about the age of the Supreme Kais and the Gods of Destruction (thousands and millions of years..)
- different versions of the hell, since the introduction of 'Earths hell' in Fukkatsu no F, a more clear explanation would be great
- Shenlong called before the Universe survival arc (probably less than a year after Freeza's resurrection)
- Master Roshi's return to the battle field and his actual power - secret training? Him beating up people in ToP?
- 28 planets with mortals in Universe 7?? A bit too less...
- Goku Black killed all the mortals? And Universe 11?

[Anime Kitten]

- 28 planets with mortals in Universe 7?? A bit too less...
- Goku Black killed all the mortals? And Universe 11?

- To be fair, this one isn't technically a retcon because it was never stated otherwise (well, to my knowledge).
- IIRC, Black said he killed "countless mortals", not necessarily all of them.

[Faisal Shourov]

Beerus ordering Freeza to destroy Planet Vegeta (The absolute worst retcon Super has introduced)

I like Beerus but that's an outrageous retcon, that changed the meaning of entire Namek saga (the most iconic arc in entire dragon ball)

[GodKaio-Ken]

There are many to list, but there are a handful that just make me want to destroy something/someone... figuratively speaking.

Retcons:
1) The Pilaf Gang being kids again and being involved with the rest of the Dragon Ball characters (I will never get tired of mentioning this one)
2) The Potara earrings no longer allowing permanent fusion. (The could have easily fixed this one by using Gowasu's potaras and state that different potaras from different universes work differently, but whatever)
3) Vegeta's motivations to surpass Goku after the Majin Buu saga. (I despise this change that occurred just for the sake of the plot)

Plot-holes
1) Time-travel during the Future Trunks arc. (The amount of paradoxes and logical impossibilities achieved by breaking its own rules is mind-boggling)
2) Future Trunks hair color changing from lavender to blue. (No reason is ever given. No question is ever asked. THE MANDELA EFFECT DOES NOT APPLY HERE!)
3) A lack of aging for major and minor characters. (self-explanatory)

1) Its explained why they are kids. Its not a recon.

2) This isn't a retcon either. Its never stated in universe exactly why they defused, simply a guess at it. Super just told us why.

3) How is that a retcon? He thought he was near his limits at that point. Then he found out there was an entire new level to achieve. Also he goes about it an entirentirely different way.

Only #2 and #3 on your pothole list are real things.