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You can choose to ignore the manga but that doesn't change the fact it's just as much an adaptation from Toriyama's notes than the anime is, actually rumors say Toriyama is more invested in the manga if anything lolBaggie_Saiyan wrote: The manga is not source material for DBS, it's irrelevant what the manga does or doesn't do.
Another difference is that Broly appears to be fully in control of himself when he transforms into his Legendary Super Saiyan form while Kale loses control, becoming violent and unreasonable each time except for 101. Of course Broly is nasty and violent anyway...DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Personally, I believe that Super Saiyan Rage is connected to Broli's Legendary Super Saiyan form.
The way I see it, Super Saiyan Rage is stronger than Super Saiyan God, but slightly weaker than Super Saiyan Blue/Rose, and drains more stamina (which is why Trunks powered down to SS2 against Future Zamasu after fighting SSR Black).
Broli's Legendary Super Saiyan form is similar to Kale's Super Saiyan Berserker form, but it's not the same. LSS has golden hair (the green was a temporary side-effect from the control device changing altering his regular SS form), and even though it has overflowing power, it doesn't increase Broli's battle power. It can also be combined with Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Oozaru, and Super Saiyan 4, and it can even reach a new level by combining it with SS4, Super Saiyan 4 Full Power. But Broli has an even stronger form now, his God form, which is a form beyond Legendary Super Saiyan. I believe that the way to reach this form is by combining Legendary Super Saiyan with Super Saiyan Rage, which triggers this unique God transformation.
Kale's Super Saiyan Berserker form however is something greater than Broli's LSS. It doesn't need to be combined with other forms to reach higher levels, it can reach higher levels on its own.
At least that's my head-canon on this. I'm planning to make a thread about my head-canon on all Saiyan forms, but I want to see Goku's new form first.
Hmmm... that's not true. You are just making that up, there is no info explaining why his hair turned more yellow-ish in the second coming. We don't even know if there are any temporary side effects after breaking the crown, we only know that when Broly has the crown on, it prevents him from accessing his full potential, which explains the color change and his skin tone gets darker as well. But once he breaks free of his father's control he doesn't have the crown anymore and his hair is green.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Personally, I believe that Super Saiyan Rage is connected to Broli's Legendary Super Saiyan form.PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:My take on this whole matter is that SSBerserk (my personal name for Kale's form) is, on a technical basis, the same form as SSRage, which Future Trunks used in the anime rendition of his main story arc before the current one. I believe these forms represent the pinnacle of Saiyan power without the influence of SSG, the "true form" of a Saiyan, achieved through the purest of rage.
There are some similarities between the two. Both have blank white eyes (at least at first for SSRage), both have immense power that puts them on equal footing with lower god-level opponents, both are catalyzed by immense rage and anger, both involve a bulking up of the body (though SSRage slims back down), and both allow the user to shake the very ground they step on due to the sheer power. In fact, I speculate that the blue electrical aura sparks from SS2 are a precursor to the full blue aura tint of SSRage.
So why the differences between the two forms? My headcanon on the differences lies in how each was achieved.
Future Trunks had already achieved SS and SS2 a long time ago, and had grown immensely powerful in the time up until he became SSRage. He's also a Human-Saiyan hybrid. Kale, however, raged out into SSBerserk right off the bat, and she's a pure-blooded Saiyan. It's possible that SSRage turned out the way it did because Future Trunks had already experienced SS forms beforehand and was a hybrid, and thus his form didn't grow out of control into a berserker. With Kale, she was turning into the form right away, without any experience as a SS, and perhaps couldn't control the power, explaining why it's green and bulked up so much more.
To summarize, SSRage and SSBerserk are essentially the same form, but the former happens when a hybrid who already has control over SS achieves it, and the latter happens when a pure-blood who hasn't experienced SS achieves it.
The way I see it, Super Saiyan Rage is stronger than Super Saiyan God, but slightly weaker than Super Saiyan Blue/Rose, and drains more stamina (which is why Trunks powered down to SS2 against Future Zamasu after fighting SSR Black).
Broli's Legendary Super Saiyan form is similar to Kale's Super Saiyan Berserker form, but it's not the same. LSS has golden hair (the green was a temporary side-effect from the control device changing altering his regular SS form), and even though it has overflowing power, it doesn't increase Broli's battle power. It can also be combined with Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Oozaru, and Super Saiyan 4, and it can even reach a new level by combining it with SS4, Super Saiyan 4 Full Power. But Broli has an even stronger form now, his God form, which is a form beyond Legendary Super Saiyan. I believe that the way to reach this form is by combining Legendary Super Saiyan with Super Saiyan Rage, which triggers this unique God transformation.
Kale's Super Saiyan Berserker form however is something greater than Broli's LSS. It doesn't need to be combined with other forms to reach higher levels, it can reach higher levels on its own.
At least that's my head-canon on this. I'm planning to make a thread about my head-canon on all Saiyan forms, but I want to see Goku's new form first.
[/spoiler] His hair changes at the end of movie 8. After Goku absorbs everyone's power, he powers up and his hair turns yellow:BrolyKale wrote:]Hmmm... that's not true. You are just making that up, there is no info explaining why his hair turned more yellow-ish in the second coming. We don't even know if there are any temporary side effects after breaking the crown, we only know that when Broly has the crown on, it prevents him from accessing his full potential, which explains the color change and his skin tone gets darker as well. But once he breaks free of his father's control he doesn't have the crown anymore and his hair is green.
Here
[spoiler]
in the concept art (movie 10) it says that his hairstyle and such changed, and his strength increased as well. So maybe they just changed his hair color to point out that he is stronger than before?
[/spoiler]Well then, the power up changed his hair color. Just like Kale she went from light green to green.BlueBasilisk wrote:His hair changes at the end of movie 8. After Goku absorbs everyone's power, he powers up and his hair turns yellow:BrolyKale wrote:]Hmmm... that's not true. You are just making that up, there is no info explaining why his hair turned more yellow-ish in the second coming. We don't even know if there are any temporary side effects after breaking the crown, we only know that when Broly has the crown on, it prevents him from accessing his full potential, which explains the color change and his skin tone gets darker as well. But once he breaks free of his father's control he doesn't have the crown anymore and his hair is green.
Here
[spoiler]
in the concept art (movie 10) it says that his hairstyle and such changed, and his strength increased as well. So maybe they just changed his hair color to point out that he is stronger than before?
[spoiler]
Never thought of it like thatBrolyKale wrote:3.Meshack wrote:Doesn’t she only have two?BrolyKale wrote:Her Berserker form is called Sūpā Saiya-jin Bōsō which means "out of control" so its SSJ out of control and her other forms are called Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2.
First is the Berserker one, second is Super Saiyan (light green) and the last one is mastered Berserker? which is called Super Saiyan 2.
The whole point of her Super Saiyan 2 form is her not being a berserker anymore.ChiefWamsutta wrote:Kale has 3 forms.
1) Super Saiyan Berserker (Broly's form without pupils)
2) Super Saiyan Berserker Suppressed (Murky Yellow Form)
3) Super Saiyan Berserker Full Power (Greenish hair with pupils)
3 is stronger than 1, which is stronger than 2.
Kefla unlocked a 'Super Saiyan Berserker 2' form. She used 'Super Saiyan Berserker Full Power' and 'Super Saiyan Berserker 2' against Goku.
Berserker 2 is stronger than Berserker Full Power.
I classify Kale and Kefla's forms under the Berserker name. It cannot be "Super Saiyan" and "Super Saiyan 2." Those forms do not have green hair. Every single Saiyan that has achieved Super Saiyan has had the same shade of yellow in their hair.ankokudaishogun wrote:The whole point of her Super Saiyan 2 form is her not being a berserker anymore.ChiefWamsutta wrote:Kale has 3 forms.
1) Super Saiyan Berserker (Broly's form without pupils)
2) Super Saiyan Berserker Suppressed (Murky Yellow Form)
3) Super Saiyan Berserker Full Power (Greenish hair with pupils)
3 is stronger than 1, which is stronger than 2.
Kefla unlocked a 'Super Saiyan Berserker 2' form. She used 'Super Saiyan Berserker Full Power' and 'Super Saiyan Berserker 2' against Goku.
Berserker 2 is stronger than Berserker Full Power.
She has:
1. Super Saiyan
2. Berserker
3. Berserker, somehow controlled
4. Super Saiyan 2
[/spoiler]
[/spoiler]
[/spoiler] Let me put it this way.ChiefWamsutta wrote:Just so I understand ...
Regular SS1, Kale's SS, Kefla's SS1, and Broly's SS are all the same form?
[spoiler]
Kale's LSS and Broly's LSS are both the same form?
[spoiler]
Kale's SS2, Kefla's SS2, and regular SS2 are the same form?
[spoiler]
Lord Frieza wrote:
Let me put it this way.
Due to being Legendery Super Saiyan, Kale and Broly have different types of transformations to your normal saiyan.
Their "normal" SS forms are different, Kale's hair is slightly greenish and in both cases they get a notiable increase in muscle mass. So there's enough there to argue it being at least a variant.
As far as we know, yes Kale and Broly's Legendery forms are ment to be the same. However Broly is displaying traits Kale dose not have. He's got a golden eyed buff normal state, his SS form has normal blond hair but increased muscle mass and his Legendery form seems to function differently to Kale's at least from what little we see.
Kales later form is a bit of a head scratcher. It dose not have any electrisity and seems smaller then her LSS form. It's be refered to as a Mastered version of her LSS form. I can honesly say I don't know what the hell it's ment to be and it causes an even bigger rift when trying to compire her to Broly.
Kefla is somthing all her own. Her transormations appear to be a fusion of the normal SS branch and the LSS one.
Unless the Dokkan Battle card refers to Kale's yellow-haired state from earlier in the tournament, I don't believe she actually has a "Super Saiyan 2" form. Nothing in the anime specifically calls it that, and the official design notes refer to it as the "controlled/mastered" version of her Legendary Super Saiyan form.ChiefWamsutta wrote: Kale's SS2, Kefla's SS2, and regular SS2 are the same form?
ChiefWamsutta wrote:Lord Frieza wrote:
Let me put it this way.
Due to being Legendery Super Saiyan, Kale and Broly have different types of transformations to your normal saiyan.
Their "normal" SS forms are different, Kale's hair is slightly greenish and in both cases they get a notiable increase in muscle mass. So there's enough there to argue it being at least a variant.
As far as we know, yes Kale and Broly's Legendery forms are ment to be the same. However Broly is displaying traits Kale dose not have. He's got a golden eyed buff normal state, his SS form has normal blond hair but increased muscle mass and his Legendery form seems to function differently to Kale's at least from what little we see.
Kales later form is a bit of a head scratcher. It dose not have any electrisity and seems smaller then her LSS form. It's be refered to as a Mastered version of her LSS form. I can honesly say I don't know what the hell it's ment to be and it causes an even bigger rift when trying to compire her to Broly.
Kefla is somthing all her own. Her transormations appear to be a fusion of the normal SS branch and the LSS one.
Ughhhhhh. So I am trying to create a graphic of all the Saiyan forms from DB/DBZ/DBS/DBGT. Since the Tournament of Power and the December 2018 movie, Kale, Kefla, and Broly have become part of DBS.
The fact that no clarifications have been given regarding what exactly Kale and Kefla's forms are frustrates me. In my post you quoted I drew some inspiration from dragonball.wikia.com (I know it isn't very reliable, but I have no other ideas on **what exactly** Kale and Kefla's forms **are**).
This graphic is to showcase every single form in the above-mentioned series, but I cannot do that if Kale and Kefla's forms are unspecified.
So, my question to you, sir, is ... how I should approach this: 1) go with the ideas from dragonball.wikia.com, or 2) try to parse through this without much to go on?
Marlowe89 wrote: Unless the Dokkan Battle card refers to Kale's yellow-haired state from earlier in the tournament, I don't believe she actually has a "Super Saiyan 2" form. Nothing in the anime specifically calls it that, and the official design notes refer to it as the "controlled/mastered" version of her Legendary Super Saiyan form.
Agreed with the rest of your post, though.
Lord Frieza wrote: Hmmmmm not easy.
For starters ignore Kelfa totally. Her transformations are the result of fusion magic and are in no way tied to saiyan biology.
Best advice for Broly and Kale forms, keep them separate (put them at the end) and ignore Kale's last form due to the lack of information on it and just have the Super Saiyan - Legendery Variant and Legendery Super Saiyan. None will blame you for leaving out form with little to no data or explanation and that appears to be being contradicted in the very next story arc/movie. The form itself makes no sense, with it ment to be a controlled version of LSS but she's weaker then befor and she totally lacks the electricity of 2, worse it's not even in the manga. Hell Trunks's Rage form is less of a headache to rationalise. Save yourself the headache and dump it.
Edit: I say put them at the end, after GT, purly because these are forms tied to a unique genetic trait and not something just any saiyan can get.
That's her "normal" Super Saiyan form.Marlowe89 wrote:Unless the Dokkan Battle card refers to Kale's yellow-haired state from earlier in the tournament,ChiefWamsutta wrote: Kale's SS2, Kefla's SS2, and regular SS2 are the same form?
Source on this? i don't remember the design notes specifying anything.I don't believe she actually has a "Super Saiyan 2" form. Nothing in the anime specifically calls it that, and the official design notes refer to it as the "controlled/mastered" version of her Legendary Super Saiyan form.
What I'm saying is that the Dokkan card most likely refers to her "normal" yellow-haired form. Look closely at the image: Kale's hair is more gold than green, same as her state from earlier in the tournament when she first controlled her berserk state. She also has the raised left bang that's completely down when she controls her power fully later on.ankokudaishogun wrote: Currently, Dokkan is the ONLY source of Kale's Super Saiyan 2 denomination, as that form doesn't appear anywhere else. So we have no reason to doubt it.
