Kale's Super Saiyan forms

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Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:43 pm

I was watching Kale's fights again, and I noticed something... is it just me, or she gets stronger the more she fights in he Super Saiyan Berserker form?

She starts fighting evenly with SS Cabba, then overpowers him, but SS2 Caulifla is strong enough to deflect her ki blast with one hand. Then in the tournament she fights with SS2 Goku & beats him up, but she doesn't appear to be strong enough to deal any real damage to him. Then Goku skips SS3 & SSG and goes SSB, but he can't damage her even with his Kamehameha. Then after a while Jiren has to step in & stop her, as if no one else could do it. Kale says that her "ki is increasing, overflowing" in her fight with Cabba, and Piccolo notices that she can't control her power when her overflowing ki damages her body. Vegeta also describes this form as possibly being the Saiyan's "true form" due to the form's out of control nature.

What I get from all these is this: SSBerserker Kale's power starts at a level above Super Saiyan, and not only the more she fights the stronger she gets, but the stronger her opponent is, the stronger she gets as well. It's like the Saiyans' ability to get stronger through their fights & near-death experiences, but amplified to a whole new level, which would fit to the "true form" of a Saiyan. Kale is also extremely durable, and her stamina is never ending when in this form since her ki is always increasing, which is why she is forced to continuously keep fighting & using ki blasts or her overflowing power will destroy her body. And even though she doesn't get tired in this form, she can't hold this form forever, and after reverting back to base it drains all of her stamina.

As for her Controlled Super Saiyan form, it appears that this form is as strong as her Berserker form, but her power is at a steady level & doesn't increase over time.

Perhaps Kale can turn into a Controlled Super Saiyan, which is at the same level Super Saiyan Berserker is at its initial level (above SS, below SS2), and then by transforming into a Super Saiyan Berserker, she becomes stronger by fighting for a while, and then by reverting to back to Green she can keep that power without going out of control. We'll probably learn more about her in the anime, and perhaps even more in the manga, if her forms work the same way. But what do you think about her forms & power?
Last edited by DBZGTKOSDH on Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:55 pm

Who the heck calls the less-buff SS form Kale has Super Saiyan Green? It's like, a very slightly duller shade of gold than regular SS. Anyways, I wouldn't be surprised if Berserk increases her power, Broly's LSS got stronger between appearances too.

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:02 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:Who the heck calls the less-buff SS form Kale has Super Saiyan Green? It's like, a very slightly duller shade of gold than regular SS. Anyways, I wouldn't be surprised if Berserk increases her power, Broly's LSS got stronger between appearances too.
It is more buff than regular Super Saiyan (but less than SS Grade 2), and has green hair. It's not regular Super Saiyan, so Super Saiyan Green is the most fitting name for now. Even her Berserker form doesn't have an official name, the video-games just call her "Kale (Out of Control)".
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:06 pm

In heroes it's called Out of Control Saiyan, but I believe it's also translated as Berserker Saiyan. Apparently they're not calling it Super Saiyan for some reason. And the other form doesn't even have green hair. The preview of the form in the magazine did, but when it actually made an appearance they went and made it yellow like Broly's normal SS form in Second Coming.

Just to make sure my eyes don't fool me, I even checked the shade from the least-yellow part of Kale's hair. It's not green whatsoever, just dull yellow/gold.

Image

Anyways, part of me thinks we'll get more of an explanation on the form, and possibly its name in the manga.

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:16 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote:In heroes it's called Out of Control Saiyan, but I believe it's also translated as Berserker Saiyan.
The FORM is only called "Berserk"(暴走, bousou).
"Out of Control Saiyan" is the name of the ability, but it's a generic name than the actual name of the transformation. Same for the various "Super Saiya-Power!", "Limit Breaking Saiyan" and "Saiyan Beyond God" abilities: they are NOT the name of the transformations.

Dokkan, too, has Kale as "Kale (Berserk)" and it's not treated as a Super Saiyan even in the link abilities.

I'm headcanoning it's because a Super Saiyan is supposed to be IN CONTROL, a berserker one is not a "Super" Saiyan.

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:33 pm

OK, I renamed the form, can we move on from names now? This thread isn't about the names of the forms, I just used these names because they are easy to understand which forms I'm talking about.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by Hakaishin Liquir » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:59 pm

Berserk Kale is as strong as the writers want her to be. They couldn't care less about power scaling. For example, in her intro episode, her ki blast was deflected by SSJ2 Caulifla, and then in ep. 100 she walked through a SSB Kamehameha, even though she had next to no time to get stronger.

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:58 pm

My take on this whole matter is that SSBerserk (my personal name for Kale's form) is, on a technical basis, the same form as SSRage, which Future Trunks used in the anime rendition of his main story arc before the current one. I believe these forms represent the pinnacle of Saiyan power without the influence of SSG, the "true form" of a Saiyan, achieved through the purest of rage.

There are some similarities between the two. Both have blank white eyes (at least at first for SSRage), both have immense power that puts them on equal footing with lower god-level opponents, both are catalyzed by immense rage and anger, both involve a bulking up of the body (though SSRage slims back down), and both allow the user to shake the very ground they step on due to the sheer power. In fact, I speculate that the blue electrical aura sparks from SS2 are a precursor to the full blue aura tint of SSRage.

So why the differences between the two forms? My headcanon on the differences lies in how each was achieved.

Future Trunks had already achieved SS and SS2 a long time ago, and had grown immensely powerful in the time up until he became SSRage. He's also a Human-Saiyan hybrid. Kale, however, raged out into SSBerserk right off the bat, and she's a pure-blooded Saiyan. It's possible that SSRage turned out the way it did because Future Trunks had already experienced SS forms beforehand and was a hybrid, and thus his form didn't grow out of control into a berserker. With Kale, she was turning into the form right away, without any experience as a SS, and perhaps couldn't control the power, explaining why it's green and bulked up so much more.

To summarize, SSRage and SSBerserk are essentially the same form, but the former happens when a hybrid who already has control over SS achieves it, and the latter happens when a pure-blood who hasn't experienced SS achieves it.

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:11 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:My take on this whole matter is that SSBerserk (my personal name for Kale's form) is, on a technical basis, the same form as SSRage, which Future Trunks used in the anime rendition of his main story arc before the current one. I believe these forms represent the pinnacle of Saiyan power without the influence of SSG, the "true form" of a Saiyan, achieved through the purest of rage.

There are some similarities between the two. Both have blank white eyes (at least at first for SSRage), both have immense power that puts them on equal footing with lower god-level opponents, both are catalyzed by immense rage and anger, both involve a bulking up of the body (though SSRage slims back down), and both allow the user to shake the very ground they step on due to the sheer power. In fact, I speculate that the blue electrical aura sparks from SS2 are a precursor to the full blue aura tint of SSRage.

So why the differences between the two forms? My headcanon on the differences lies in how each was achieved.

Future Trunks had already achieved SS and SS2 a long time ago, and had grown immensely powerful in the time up until he became SSRage. He's also a Human-Saiyan hybrid. Kale, however, raged out into SSBerserk right off the bat, and she's a pure-blooded Saiyan. It's possible that SSRage turned out the way it did because Future Trunks had already experienced SS forms beforehand and was a hybrid, and thus his form didn't grow out of control into a berserker. With Kale, she was turning into the form right away, without any experience as a SS, and perhaps couldn't control the power, explaining why it's green and bulked up so much more.

To summarize, SSRage and SSBerserk are essentially the same form, but the former happens when a hybrid who already has control over SS achieves it, and the latter happens when a pure-blood who hasn't experienced SS achieves it.
Personally, I believe that Super Saiyan Rage is connected to Broli's Legendary Super Saiyan form.

The way I see it, Super Saiyan Rage is stronger than Super Saiyan God, but slightly weaker than Super Saiyan Blue/Rose, and drains more stamina (which is why Trunks powered down to SS2 against Future Zamasu after fighting SSR Black).

Broli's Legendary Super Saiyan form is similar to Kale's Super Saiyan Berserker form, but it's not the same. LSS has golden hair (the green was a temporary side-effect from the control device changing altering his regular SS form), and even though it has overflowing power, it doesn't increase Broli's battle power. It can also be combined with Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Oozaru, and Super Saiyan 4, and it can even reach a new level by combining it with SS4, Super Saiyan 4 Full Power. But Broli has an even stronger form now, his God form, which is a form beyond Legendary Super Saiyan. I believe that the way to reach this form is by combining Legendary Super Saiyan with Super Saiyan Rage, which triggers this unique God transformation.

Kale's Super Saiyan Berserker form however is something greater than Broli's LSS. It doesn't need to be combined with other forms to reach higher levels, it can reach higher levels on its own.

At least that's my head-canon on this. I'm planning to make a thread about my head-canon on all Saiyan forms, but I want to see Goku's new form first.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by Meshack » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:23 pm

The form is actually called 超サイヤ人(暴走) Super Saiyan (Berserk)

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:03 am

It wasn't stated in the manga to be the legendary super saiyan, right? it could still be another form

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by ZeroDio » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:12 am

Well name wise I just go

The Broly esque SSJ - I called it SSJ Berserker
Her Non Berserk SSJ Form - C-Type SSJ
Her Mastered Berserk Form - SSJ2 (Kale Variation)

But her powerwise

I feel Goku would have been more of a challenge to her & Caulifla if his body hadn’t taken the beating from the physical strain of using Omen for the first time plus The Damage from battling Jiren.

But strengthwise she is amazing to a certain degree now and once she awakens forms like her version of LSSJ3 and possibly in the Far Future Her Version of “Broly God”

She would probably be a Top Tier fighter for the U6 Saiyans & Universe 6

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by Gokitalo » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:46 pm

Koitsukai wrote:It wasn't stated in the manga to be the legendary super saiyan, right? it could still be another form
It could be, but I do think it's meant to be the Legendary Super Saiyan. It's possible that Toyotarou isn't calling it that because Toriyama himself didn't come up with the transformation (although Toriyama did design Broly and his original Legendary form). That said, Bardock made it into the manga and that was a similar deal (Toriyama didn't create him, but redesigned him), so it's hard to say for sure...

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:16 pm

Gokitalo wrote: It could be, but I do think it's meant to be the Legendary Super Saiyan. It's possible that Toyotarou isn't calling it that because Toriyama himself didn't come up with the transformation (although Toriyama did design Broly and his original Legendary form).
Just want to quickly add that the anime barely mentioned it either. If I'm not mistaken, Goku referred to the form as a "true Legendary Super Saiyan" exactly one time, and that was just in a preview. That's not to dispute the name of the form, of course, but it would appear that neither medium is making it a priority to spell it out.

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:28 pm

Koitsukai wrote:It wasn't stated in the manga to be the legendary super saiyan, right? it could still be another form
The manga is not source material for DBS, it's irrelevant what the manga does or doesn't do.

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by Meshack » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:45 am

Koitsukai wrote:It wasn't stated in the manga to be the legendary super saiyan, right? it could still be another form
Her Broly form is officially called 超サイヤ人(暴走) or ケール(暴走). Her other form is either 超サイヤ人 or 超サイヤ人2 officially.

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by Meshack » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:46 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
Koitsukai wrote:It wasn't stated in the manga to be the legendary super saiyan, right? it could still be another form
The manga is not source material for DBS, it's irrelevant what the manga does or doesn't do.
It actually does matter.

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by BrolyKale » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:56 am

Her Berserker form is called Sūpā Saiya-jin Bōsō which means "out of control" so its SSJ out of control and her other forms are called Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2.
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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by Meshack » Sun Jun 24, 2018 3:23 am

BrolyKale wrote:Her Berserker form is called Sūpā Saiya-jin Bōsō which means "out of control" so its SSJ out of control and her other forms are called Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2.
Doesn’t she only have two?

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Re: Kale's Super Saiyan forms

Post by BrolyKale » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:35 am

Meshack wrote:
BrolyKale wrote:Her Berserker form is called Sūpā Saiya-jin Bōsō which means "out of control" so its SSJ out of control and her other forms are called Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2.
Doesn’t she only have two?
3.

First is the Berserker one, second is Super Saiyan (light green) and the last one is mastered Berserker? which is called Super Saiyan 2.
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