Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by BWri » Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:31 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
HeroR wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote: This entire post is absolutely true, from beginning to end. Especially the part about them reusing Super Saiyan 1 again during the U6 Tournament Arc. Even though SSJ Blue should have replaced it. It looks like you read my mind.
Except, as others have pointed out, it was never once said that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan replaced Super Saiyan. That was just what fans assumed because Goku didn't used Super Saiyan in Resurrection 'F' and base form Goku was so strong. Fans were wrong, it happens. Being mad because your theories didn't work out is just bitter.
I admit, i was very very upset and highly dissapointed when that first happened, along with Goku and Vegeta changing their clothes back to normal and their powers seemingly being retconned where they had trouble fighting against the likes of Cabba, Magetta and Frost. (Because of the whole Saiyan Beyond God Theory i seemed to believe back than because of the RoF arc). However, after all of that happened, something changed in me, i suddenly started taking Dragon Ball Super not so seriously anymore, with all of it's retcons and powerscaling issues, and now mainly focus on the good side of Super, while completely ignoring the bad. I guess you could say, my mind is much more at peace now because of this sudden change of mindset.
Yes! I call it turning my brain off, but yeah, it's the only way I can enjoy the show nowadays, because consistency and logic mean next to nothing anymore. I can honestly sit back and enjoy the show without pointing out all it's flaws.

But regarding the OP's topic, yeah I noticed it back in the U6 tournament. They've brought back nearly every form but the great ape. And they're doing the complete opposite that a show like this needs. Instead of simplifying an already bloated and confusing series, they're just adding more, on steroids. Instead of streamlining and eliminating obsolete transformations, they're utilizing and focusing on them at strange and illogical times. I like transformations, but only when they mean something and so now I roll my eyes at every new form because all I see is a temporary powerup that'll only last for an arc until the next powerup makes it obsolete. I've been calling for these forms to have special abilities for a while now, like only certain attacks can be used in certain forms, or a speed or power form. An elemental manipulation form, etc. More creativity please, instead of just MOAR POWAH.
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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:58 pm

BWri wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Except, as others have pointed out, it was never once said that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan replaced Super Saiyan. That was just what fans assumed because Goku didn't used Super Saiyan in Resurrection 'F' and base form Goku was so strong. Fans were wrong, it happens. Being mad because your theories didn't work out is just bitter.
I admit, i was very very upset and highly dissapointed when that first happened, along with Goku and Vegeta changing their clothes back to normal and their powers seemingly being retconned where they had trouble fighting against the likes of Cabba, Magetta and Frost. (Because of the whole Saiyan Beyond God Theory i seemed to believe back than because of the RoF arc). However, after all of that happened, something changed in me, i suddenly started taking Dragon Ball Super not so seriously anymore, with all of it's retcons and powerscaling issues, and now mainly focus on the good side of Super, while completely ignoring the bad. I guess you could say, my mind is much more at peace now because of this sudden change of mindset.
Yes! I call it turning my brain off, but yeah, it's the only way I can enjoy the show nowadays, because consistency and logic mean next to nothing anymore. I can honestly sit back and enjoy the show without pointing out all it's flaws.

But regarding the OP's topic, yeah I noticed it back in the U6 tournament. They've brought back nearly every form but the great ape. And they're doing the complete opposite that a show like this needs. Instead of simplifying an already bloated and confusing series, they're just adding more, on steroids. Instead of streamlining and eliminating obsolete transformations, they're utilizing and focusing on them at strange and illogical times. I like transformations, but only when they mean something and so now I roll my eyes at every new form because all I see is a temporary powerup that'll only last for an arc until the next powerup makes it obsolete. I've been calling for these forms to have special abilities for a while now, like only certain attacks can be used in certain forms, or a speed or power form. An elemental manipulation form, etc. More creativity please, instead of just MOAR POWAH.
In martial arts power in generally created through the speed and technical prowess of the fighter. Its not your typical "Lift weights get strong"

The idea of a form being fast but weak doesnt make sense in the context of martial arts. Though you can have a degree of power without speed the opposite generisn't true. By being fast you will generate power.

Test it out for yourself. Punch something as quickly as you can. Its impossible to hit quickly and softly. Now try and punch something hard but slow. Its also nearly impossible.

Elements would work but honestly the last thing I want is Goku the last airbender.
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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by Taingo » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:04 pm

I'm really hoping, if this arc isn't the last of Super, that this next transformation is the absolute final, last one, and I'm also kind of hoping it cancels out Super Saiyan completely so it isn't needed anymore.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Sep 25, 2017 3:10 pm

I think it needs to to be clarified that bringing back SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3 was Toriyama's intention. Not that of Toei. In both mediums of Dragon Ball Super (the anime and the manga), the interpretation of the events of Universe 6/7 Tournament and Future Trunks arc, which is based of a plot outline given to them from Toriyama, Goku and Vegeta use the golden line of SSJ transformations again.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:51 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:I think it needs to to be clarified that bringing back SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3 was Toriyama's intention. Not that of Toei. In both mediums of Dragon Ball Super (the anime and the manga), the interpretation of the events of Universe 6/7 Tournament and Future Trunks arc, which is based of a plot outline given to them from Toriyama, Goku and Vegeta use the golden line of SSJ transformations again.
We don't know that. Just because something is in both the manga & anime of Super, it doesn't mean that it comes from Toriyama's story drafts, it only means that it's possible that it came from Toriyama's story drafts. It's is also as much possible that the anime took the idea from the manga or the other way around, since we know that they take inspiration from each other, from character poses to story ideas.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:16 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:I think it needs to to be clarified that bringing back SSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3 was Toriyama's intention. Not that of Toei. In both mediums of Dragon Ball Super (the anime and the manga), the interpretation of the events of Universe 6/7 Tournament and Future Trunks arc, which is based of a plot outline given to them from Toriyama, Goku and Vegeta use the golden line of SSJ transformations again.
We don't know that. Just because something is in both the manga & anime of Super, it doesn't mean that it comes from Toriyama's story drafts, it only means that it's possible that it came from Toriyama's story drafts. It's is also as much possible that the anime took the idea from the manga or the other way around, since we know that they take inspiration from each other, from character poses to story ideas.
Considering that Toyotaro has stated that he doesn't deviate from the major plot-lines that Toriyama lays down in his outline story for Super, I think it safe to say that if both medium have a specific plot point which takes place in the story which are identical (i.e Goku turning SSJ to fight Final Form Frost, SSJ3 Goku fighting SSJ2 Future Trunks).

Plus, the relationship between the Toyotaro and anime staff is still very vague. We know that Toyotaro provided character designs for some of the Hakaishin in Universal Survival arc that the anime staff used. But beyond that, whether the manga and the anime take inspiration from on another, like character poses or story ideas, is still unknown. Especially with how much the anime and manga vary greatly in how they get from plot-point A to plot-point B.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Sep 25, 2017 8:37 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Considering that Toyotaro has stated that he doesn't deviate from the major plot-lines that Toriyama lays down in his outline story for Super, I think it safe to say that if both medium have a specific plot point which takes place in the story which are identical (i.e Goku turning SSJ to fight Final Form Frost, SSJ3 Goku fighting SSJ2 Future Trunks).
You are assuming that Toriyama wrote those details in his story drafts. In the story drafts, the fights could have just been described in single sentences like "Goku fights Frost, Frost beats him by cheating" or "Goku tests Trunks' strength in a sparring match, and Goku easily beats full power Trunks without using his full strength".
Plus, the relationship between the Toyotaro and anime staff is still very vague.
That's the thing. We don't know if Toyotaro watched the anime, liked the part where Trunks cuts Zamasu in two, and then decided to do the same thing with his own spin to it. We don't know if Toei decided that they wanted to bring back the golden forms, so they instructed Toyotaro to do the same, or if Toyotaro simply decided that it was a good idea from Toei to bring back the golden forms & did the same in his version.

We don't know all the details, so saying that something definitely comes from Toriyama simply because it appears in both anime & manga is just wrong. It's possible yes, but we can't know for sure.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:04 pm

Saturnine wrote:First bringing back the regular SSj forms for Goku and Vegeta, even though they were supposed to be replaced by SSj Blue, then making Future Trunks go grade 3, even though FPSSj was supposed to replace it entirely, and now Freeza using the bulky form again, even though he was heavily implied to have mastered his body to put out 100% without needing to get bulky.

I'm beginning to think that Toei is indeed more interested in potential merchandise and video game options than in logic and consistency.
If you're going to blame anyone for transformations coming back, blame the fans, because Toei is just giving them what they want.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by Lord Beerus » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:38 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Considering that Toyotaro has stated that he doesn't deviate from the major plot-lines that Toriyama lays down in his outline story for Super, I think it safe to say that if both medium have a specific plot point which takes place in the story which are identical (i.e Goku turning SSJ to fight Final Form Frost, SSJ3 Goku fighting SSJ2 Future Trunks).
You are assuming that Toriyama wrote those details in his story drafts. In the story drafts, the fights could have just been described in single sentences like "Goku fights Frost, Frost beats him by cheating" or "Goku tests Trunks' strength in a sparring match, and Goku easily beats full power Trunks without using his full strength".
Plus, the relationship between the Toyotaro and anime staff is still very vague.
That's the thing. We don't know if Toyotaro watched the anime, liked the part where Trunks cuts Zamasu in two, and then decided to do the same thing with his own spin to it. We don't know if Toei decided that they wanted to bring back the golden forms, so they instructed Toyotaro to do the same, or if Toyotaro simply decided that it was a good idea from Toei to bring back the golden forms & did the same in his version.

We don't know all the details, so saying that something definitely comes from Toriyama simply because it appears in both anime & manga is just wrong. It's possible yes, but we can't know for sure.
There far too many similarities with how certain moments in the arcs of Dragon Ball Super, in both the anime and the manga, to not suggest that Toriyama didn't specify that is how he wanted a certain plot point to occur. We can't just ignore when a specific moment happens in the both mediums as a case of the anime staff and Toyotaro just sharing ideas. Yes, they do communicate with each other on a certain degree, but they ultimately have central point with the story of Dragon Ball which are identical because that is what is specified in the plot outline from Toriyama to happen and they follow that because that is core reason Toriyama got into the mix of Dragon Ball Super: to provide a direct impact of the story. Toriyama was't included in the production of Super for shits and giggles. He brought in to provide a guideline for the anime staff and Toyotaro to follow and develop with their own devices.

We know that how the Toei anime staff and Toyotaro take liberties in how the plot progresses. But when you see a fight or shift in scene in the anime and the manga are literally the same, that is an indication that Toriyama wanted that moment to specifically happen within the narrative. That's why when people, including myself, say that when something happens in the manga that is identical to what happens in the anime or vice-versa, in terms of moving the story forward or how a fight specifically occurs, like Goku transforming into SSJ to fight Final Form Frost, Vegeta transforming into SSJ to fight Frost and Magetta, Goku transforming into a SSJ3 to fight SSJ2 Future Trunks, Goku Black transforming into SSJR to fight SSJB Vegeta, then it's obvious to tell those are moments Toriyama specifically noted in his plot outline to happen in the grand scheme of Super's narrative. How the story leads up to those moments are up to the creativity of Toyotaro and Toei, but we know that Toyotaro does't deviate from the major plot-points in Toriyama draft so the same can be assumed for Toei. Hence why there certain part of the story in the anime and manga of Super that are the same.

Toriyama's plot outline may not be most detailed, but I think it's a least a bit more detailed beyond "X fight Y" or "A does B" in at least in some scenarios. Even your hypothesis of what Toriyama outline may be such "Goku tests Trunks' strength in a sparring match, and Goku easily beats full power Trunks without using his full strength" would be too vague in that context of what happens in the story. I mean, how could interpret that? Both mediums have Future Trunks gaining a SSJ form that he previously never had (Super Saiyan 2), so it can be easily deduced that is something Toriyama specifically wanted to be the case in Super. And if Toriyama is specific with transformations even in scenarios that are ultimately non-consequential to the plot, like Goku sparring with Future Trunks who to say he didn't specify for Goku to use SSJ3 against SSJ2 Future Trunks? You can tell there are times that Toriyama specify's for a certain plot-point to occur in a specific fashion and in other cases where he's a bit more intentionally vague.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by BWri » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:55 pm

GodKaio-Ken wrote:
BWri wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote: I admit, i was very very upset and highly dissapointed when that first happened, along with Goku and Vegeta changing their clothes back to normal and their powers seemingly being retconned where they had trouble fighting against the likes of Cabba, Magetta and Frost. (Because of the whole Saiyan Beyond God Theory i seemed to believe back than because of the RoF arc). However, after all of that happened, something changed in me, i suddenly started taking Dragon Ball Super not so seriously anymore, with all of it's retcons and powerscaling issues, and now mainly focus on the good side of Super, while completely ignoring the bad. I guess you could say, my mind is much more at peace now because of this sudden change of mindset.
Yes! I call it turning my brain off, but yeah, it's the only way I can enjoy the show nowadays, because consistency and logic mean next to nothing anymore. I can honestly sit back and enjoy the show without pointing out all it's flaws.

But regarding the OP's topic, yeah I noticed it back in the U6 tournament. They've brought back nearly every form but the great ape. And they're doing the complete opposite that a show like this needs. Instead of simplifying an already bloated and confusing series, they're just adding more, on steroids. Instead of streamlining and eliminating obsolete transformations, they're utilizing and focusing on them at strange and illogical times. I like transformations, but only when they mean something and so now I roll my eyes at every new form because all I see is a temporary powerup that'll only last for an arc until the next powerup makes it obsolete. I've been calling for these forms to have special abilities for a while now, like only certain attacks can be used in certain forms, or a speed or power form. An elemental manipulation form, etc. More creativity please, instead of just MOAR POWAH.
In martial arts power in generally created through the speed and technical prowess of the fighter. Its not your typical "Lift weights get strong"

The idea of a form being fast but weak doesnt make sense in the context of martial arts. Though you can have a degree of power without speed the opposite generisn't true. By being fast you will generate power.

Test it out for yourself. Punch something as quickly as you can. Its impossible to hit quickly and softly. Now try and punch something hard but slow. Its also nearly impossible.
Power = strength. With your hard but slow punch example, that particular attack would produce a steady pushback due to the strength behind it and would be immovable if the person on the other end of it didn't have the adequate strength to match or deflect it, like getting into a shoving match with a guy bigger than you. You couldn't move him but he could easily move you. But power also equates to Ki output and well, power of ki attacks. So a punch powered by an excess of strong ki would have a ton of explosive power, likely much more than a normal punch of a faster opponent. It's how I saw that Trunks SSJ Grade 3 vs Cell fight. Cell said Trunks was stronger but he'd still lose, which I took to mean he'd never lay a finger on Cell, but if he did he'd do more damage to Cell than Cell could do to him.
Elements would work but honestly the last thing I want is Goku the last airbender.
DB already has elements. SSJ2 has lightning, SSG has fire, and SSB has -- IDK, static or something. All they'd have to do is play that up a little bit to make things a little more interesting. It wouldn't change the nature of the show and would only add another dimension to the fighting, because really I'm just talking about special attacks and attack augmentations. Can you imagine a flaming Kamehameha from Goku or a lightning one from Gohan? Would be sick!
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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:45 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Considering that Toyotaro has stated that he doesn't deviate from the major plot-lines that Toriyama lays down in his outline story for Super, I think it safe to say that if both medium have a specific plot point which takes place in the story which are identical (i.e Goku turning SSJ to fight Final Form Frost, SSJ3 Goku fighting SSJ2 Future Trunks).
You are assuming that Toriyama wrote those details in his story drafts. In the story drafts, the fights could have just been described in single sentences like "Goku fights Frost, Frost beats him by cheating" or "Goku tests Trunks' strength in a sparring match, and Goku easily beats full power Trunks without using his full strength".
Plus, the relationship between the Toyotaro and anime staff is still very vague.
That's the thing. We don't know if Toyotaro watched the anime, liked the part where Trunks cuts Zamasu in two, and then decided to do the same thing with his own spin to it. We don't know if Toei decided that they wanted to bring back the golden forms, so they instructed Toyotaro to do the same, or if Toyotaro simply decided that it was a good idea from Toei to bring back the golden forms & did the same in his version.

We don't know all the details, so saying that something definitely comes from Toriyama simply because it appears in both anime & manga is just wrong. It's possible yes, but we can't know for sure.
There far too many similarities with how certain moments in the arcs of Dragon Ball Super, in both the anime and the manga, to not suggest that Toriyama didn't specify that is how he wanted a certain plot point to occur. We can't just ignore when a specific moment happens in the both mediums as a case of the anime staff and Toyotaro just sharing ideas. Yes, they do communicate with each other on a certain degree, but they ultimately have central point with the story of Dragon Ball which are identical because that is what is specified in the plot outline from Toriyama to happen and they follow that because that is core reason Toriyama got into the mix of Dragon Ball Super: to provide a direct impact of the story. Toriyama was't included in the production of Super for shits and giggles. He brought in to provide a guideline for the anime staff and Toyotaro to follow and develop with their own devices.

We know that how the Toei anime staff and Toyotaro take liberties in how the plot progresses. But when you see a fight or shift in scene in the anime and the manga are literally the same, that is an indication that Toriyama wanted that moment to specifically happen within the narrative. That's why when people, including myself, say that when something happens in the manga that is identical to what happens in the anime or vice-versa, in terms of moving the story forward or how a fight specifically occurs, like Goku transforming into SSJ to fight Final Form Frost, Vegeta transforming into SSJ to fight Frost and Magetta, Goku transforming into a SSJ3 to fight SSJ2 Future Trunks, Goku Black transforming into SSJR to fight SSJB Vegeta, then it's obvious to tell those are moments Toriyama specifically noted in his plot outline to happen in the grand scheme of Super's narrative. How the story leads up to those moments are up to the creativity of Toyotaro and Toei, but we know that Toyotaro does't deviate from the major plot-points in Toriyama draft so the same can be assumed for Toei. Hence why there certain part of the story in the anime and manga of Super that are the same.

Toriyama's plot outline may not be most detailed, but I think it's a least a bit more detailed beyond "X fight Y" or "A does B" in at least in some scenarios. Even your hypothesis of what Toriyama outline may be such "Goku tests Trunks' strength in a sparring match, and Goku easily beats full power Trunks without using his full strength" would be too vague in that context of what happens in the story. I mean, how could interpret that? Both mediums have Future Trunks gaining a SSJ form that he previously never had (Super Saiyan 2), so it can be easily deduced that is something Toriyama specifically wanted to be the case in Super. And if Toriyama is specific with transformations even in scenarios that are ultimately non-consequential to the plot, like Goku sparring with Future Trunks who to say he didn't specify for Goku to use SSJ3 against SSJ2 Future Trunks? You can tell there are times that Toriyama specify's for a certain plot-point to occur in a specific fashion and in other cases where he's a bit more intentionally vague.
So, your answer to me basically is "You are making too much assumptions, so it's safe to assume what I am assuming".
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:31 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: You are assuming that Toriyama wrote those details in his story drafts. In the story drafts, the fights could have just been described in single sentences like "Goku fights Frost, Frost beats him by cheating" or "Goku tests Trunks' strength in a sparring match, and Goku easily beats full power Trunks without using his full strength".


That's the thing. We don't know if Toyotaro watched the anime, liked the part where Trunks cuts Zamasu in two, and then decided to do the same thing with his own spin to it. We don't know if Toei decided that they wanted to bring back the golden forms, so they instructed Toyotaro to do the same, or if Toyotaro simply decided that it was a good idea from Toei to bring back the golden forms & did the same in his version.

We don't know all the details, so saying that something definitely comes from Toriyama simply because it appears in both anime & manga is just wrong. It's possible yes, but we can't know for sure.
There far too many similarities with how certain moments in the arcs of Dragon Ball Super, in both the anime and the manga, to not suggest that Toriyama didn't specify that is how he wanted a certain plot point to occur. We can't just ignore when a specific moment happens in the both mediums as a case of the anime staff and Toyotaro just sharing ideas. Yes, they do communicate with each other on a certain degree, but they ultimately have central point with the story of Dragon Ball which are identical because that is what is specified in the plot outline from Toriyama to happen and they follow that because that is core reason Toriyama got into the mix of Dragon Ball Super: to provide a direct impact of the story. Toriyama wasn't included in the production of Super for shits and giggles. He brought in to provide a guideline for the anime staff and Toyotaro to follow and develop with their own devices.

We know that how the Toei anime staff and Toyotaro take liberties in how the plot progresses. But when you see a fight or shift in scene in the anime and the manga are literally the same, that is an indication that Toriyama wanted that moment to specifically happen within the narrative. That's why when people, including myself, say that when something happens in the manga that is identical to what happens in the anime or vice-versa, in terms of moving the story forward or how a fight specifically occurs, like Goku transforming into SSJ to fight Final Form Frost, Vegeta transforming into SSJ to fight Frost and Magetta, Goku transforming into a SSJ3 to fight SSJ2 Future Trunks, Goku Black transforming into SSJR to fight SSJB Vegeta, then it's obvious to tell those are moments Toriyama specifically noted in his plot outline to happen in the grand scheme of Super's narrative. How the story leads up to those moments are up to the creativity of Toyotaro and Toei, but we know that Toyotaro does't deviate from the major plot-points in Toriyama's draft of the plot so the same can be assumed for Toei. Hence why there certain parts of the story in the anime and manga of Super that are the same.

Toriyama's plot outline may not be most detailed, but I think it's a least a bit more detailed beyond "X fight Y" or "A does B" in at least in some scenarios. Even your hypothesis of what Toriyama outline may be such "Goku tests Trunks' strength in a sparring match, and Goku easily beats full power Trunks without using his full strength" would be too vague in that context of what happens in the story. I mean, how could you interpret that? Both mediums have Future Trunks gaining a SSJ form that he previously never had (Super Saiyan 2), so it can be easily deduced that is something Toriyama specifically wanted to be the case in Super's story. And if Toriyama is specific with transformations even in scenarios that are ultimately non-consequential to the plot, like Goku sparring with Future Trunks, who's to say he didn't specify for Goku to use SSJ3 against SSJ2 Future Trunks? You can tell there are times that Toriyama specify's for a certain plot-point to occur in a specific fashion and in other cases where he's a bit more intentionally vague.
So, your answer to me basically is "You are making too much assumptions, so it's safe to assume what I am assuming".
No. You're oversimplifying my answer.

I came to the logical conclusion that you can tell what are specific plot points from Toriyama's outline based on what we know from how Toyotaro develops his plot (not deviating from the plot-points in Toriyama's story draft while having the creative freedom to develop the narrative how he pleases up until he reaches a Toriyama plot-point). In conjunction with how certain scenes and fights takes place in the anime that identical to that of the manga and vice-versa, given that the Toei anime staff work with the same plot outline as Toyotaro does and follow the same method as Toyotaro does with developing the narrative as they please until they reach the specified plot point noted in Toriyama's story guideline.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:21 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:No. You're oversimplifying my answer.

I came to the logical conclusion that you can tell what are specific plot points from Toriyama's outline based on what we know from how Toyotaro develops his plot (not deviating from the plot-points in Toriyama's story draft while having the creative freedom to develop the narrative how he pleases up until he reaches a Toriyama plot-point). In conjunction with how certain scenes and fights takes place in the anime that identical to that of the manga and vice-versa, given that the Toei anime staff work with the same plot outline as Toyotaro does and follow the same method as Toyotaro does with developing the narrative as they please until they reach the specified plot point noted in Toriyama's story guideline.
But you are going under the assumption that Toei & Toyotaro don't ever exchange ideas. We don't know that, so saying that something definitely comes from Toriyama just because it is in both the manga & anime is wrong. It's possible that it cames from Toriyama if it's in both, but it's not definite.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:27 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:No. You're oversimplifying my answer.

I came to the logical conclusion that you can tell what are specific plot points from Toriyama's outline based on what we know from how Toyotaro develops his plot (not deviating from the plot-points in Toriyama's story draft while having the creative freedom to develop the narrative how he pleases up until he reaches a Toriyama plot-point). In conjunction with how certain scenes and fights takes place in the anime that identical to that of the manga and vice-versa, given that the Toei anime staff work with the same plot outline as Toyotaro does and follow the same method as Toyotaro does with developing the narrative as they please until they reach the specified plot point noted in Toriyama's story guideline.
But you are going under the assumption that Toei & Toyotaro don't ever exchange ideas. We don't know that, so saying that something definitely comes from Toriyama just because it is in both the manga & anime is wrong. It's possible that it cames from Toriyama if it's in both, but it's not definite.
Well, without the additional context behind-the-scenes and the surefire knowledge that both adaptations work off of a common ground, Toriyama's outlines, the safest and likely most accurate assumption that we as fans have to make when speculating on these things is to assume that the common ground is the source of the common elements in both adaptations.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:31 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Well, without the additional context behind-the-scenes and the surefire knowledge that both adaptations work off of a common ground, Toriyama's outlines, the safest and likely most accurate assumption that we as fans have to make when speculating on these things is to assume that the common ground is the source of the common elements in both adaptations.
But it's still an assumption you are making!
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by Simere » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:37 pm

We already know that they share details of what they're doing with each other:
What is your relationship with the Dragon Ball Super anime?

At this point, I'm not very involved with it. I think going forward, I'll be more involved, but at this point in time, I actually receive more information from the anime team than I give to them. The anime is a little bit further along than I am, but in the near future I'll be ahead, so the information will be going back to them. Regardless, we'll continue to support one another as we go forward.
Which is why it's not safe to assume particular commonalities among them were in Toriyama's outline.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:38 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Well, without the additional context behind-the-scenes and the surefire knowledge that both adaptations work off of a common ground, Toriyama's outlines, the safest and likely most accurate assumption that we as fans have to make when speculating on these things is to assume that the common ground is the source of the common elements in both adaptations.
But it's still an assumption you are making!
Perhaps, but it's a much safer and more likely one than assuming that the common elements between adaptations is the product of an unstated exchange of ideas between Toyotaro and Toei. We KNOW that they both work off of the same outlines, so we KNOW that certain elements will be the same.

The assumption is merely noting the strikingly similar elements between the two adaptations as the most likely candidates of the common ground.

However, to bring this whole conversation back to relevance to the thread topic, we see that one of the likely candidates for the outline specifying things would be the reintroduction of the SS forms in the same scenarios during the Universe 6/7 Tournament Arc, forms that some fans believed to have been gone as of Resurrection of F.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:42 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:Well, without the additional context behind-the-scenes and the surefire knowledge that both adaptations work off of a common ground, Toriyama's outlines, the safest and likely most accurate assumption that we as fans have to make when speculating on these things is to assume that the common ground is the source of the common elements in both adaptations.
But it's still an assumption you are making!
Perhaps, but it's a much safer and more likely one than assuming that the common elements between adaptations is the product of an unstated exchange of ideas between Toyotaro and Toei. We KNOW that they both work off of the same outlines, so we KNOW that certain elements will be the same.

The assumption is merely noting the strikingly similar elements between the two adaptations as the most likely candidates of the common ground.

However, to bring this whole conversation back to relevance to the thread topic, we see that one of the likely candidates for the outline specifying things would be the reintroduction of the SS forms in the same scenarios during the Universe 6/7 Tournament Arc, forms that some fans believed to have been gone as of Resurrection of F.
Safest or not, it's still an assumption. It is not a fact. So people should stop treating safe assumptions as facts, because it's wrong.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:20 pm

Simere wrote:We already know that they share details of what they're doing with each other:
What is your relationship with the Dragon Ball Super anime?

At this point, I'm not very involved with it. I think going forward, I'll be more involved, but at this point in time, I actually receive more information from the anime team than I give to them. The anime is a little bit further along than I am, but in the near future I'll be ahead, so the information will be going back to them. Regardless, we'll continue to support one another as we go forward.
Which is why it's not safe to assume particular commonalities among them were in Toriyama's outline.
Considering that Toriyama states the doesn't deviate from the plot-points in Toriyama's outline ("Fundamentally, I don't deviate from the major plotlines that Toriyama's laid down.") the same outline that the anime staff work with when writing episodes, it's more than same that if any scene is similar in the anime and manga, it's something that Toriyama specified to happen in his plot outline.

I mean, Toyotaro even gives an example of this kind of context:
The Trunks arc within Dragon Ball Super will hit the U.S. soon, and while a certain reveal is the same in the manga, anime, and Toriyama's outline, both the anime and manga have different ways of getting there, each taking advantage of the unique aspects of their medium, so I hope everyone enjoys comparing them.
In regard to Toyotaro receiving more information from the anime staff than giving it, it can be deduced that the "information" is simply character designs and other miscellaneous drawings and conceptual art. Toyotaro states in that interview that all he receives from Toriyama is just a piece paper with text. No character designs or other miscellaneous drawings or conceptual art. Just a piece of paper with words.
What I receive from Toriyama is literally words on paper, without drawings or anything. So when I'm reading it, I have to fill in the blanks as far as the specifics are concerned. I think of what kinds of expressions the characters wear, which way they're looking when they say a certain line. Many times, Toriyama-sensei doesn't give me specific feedback on the details that I fill in, so I put a lot of thought into those aspects, knowing that my interpretation is what the readers will see.
Given how much the production scale of manga and anime are widely different in circumstances, with the anime staff having to write and prepare episodes to be animated several months in advance, the staff at Toei most likely would have received not only the full plot outline from Toriyama before Toyotaro did, but also all the new character designs, miscellaneous drawings and conceptual art, as they would need a lot of time in advance to get their shit ready for when a new arc with new contents going to happen. Because just based on the new character designs, Toei would have organise hiring new voices actors, composing new music and bringing in more animators for certain episodes. All of that take months of preparations. Toyotaro doesn't have worry about all that stuff. He just needs to focus on getting from plot point A to plot point B for 30-40 pages worth of material within a month. Toei are under much more pressure to produce more material on a weekly basis, so they need every detail they can get from Toriyama way ahead of time.

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Re: Getting rid of transformations really does seem to not sit well with Toei

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:46 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Given how much the production scale of manga and anime are widely different in circumstances, with the anime staff having to write and prepare episodes to be animated several months in advance, the staff at Toei most likely would have received not only the full plot outline from Toriyama before Toyotaro did, but also all the new character designs, miscellaneous drawings and conceptual art, as they would need a lot of time in advance to get their shit ready for when a new arc with new contents going to happen. Because just based on the new character designs, Toei would have organise hiring new voices actors, composing new music and bringing in more animators for certain episodes. All of that take months of preparations. Toyotaro doesn't have worry about all that stuff. He just needs to focus on getting from plot point A to plot point B for 30-40 pages worth of material within a month. Toei are under much more pressure to produce more material on a weekly basis, so they need every detail they can get from Toriyama way ahead of time.
So what? Toei was ahead of the manga in the Universe 6 & Future Trunks arcs, both in production and release. Toyotaro didn't just have Toriyama's story drafts, he also had his TV to watch the new episodes.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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