Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

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avasatu
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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by avasatu » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:33 pm

I wonder what the Grand Priest has that is so superior to UI that Whis can't even touch him.

Though I suppose that UI doesn't really increase strength and power directly. It just removes your need to think about doing things like dodging and moving, and has the hax that your movements become sharper, faster and stronger over time. GP could just have UI and a much higher ki capacity.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by supersaiyan1993 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:42 am

we need more info on ultra instinct.
i think its a technique, but when saiyans use it, they change appearance which is why its a sort of form. goku could possibly use this with only super saiyan blue due to its calm mind. we might get a new form when he combines ultra instinct and super saiyan blue.

anyway it could be possible that gohan will be able to use ultra instinct since gohans limit may already have been broken by the old kai.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by TheMikado » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:54 am

avasatu wrote:I wonder what the Grand Priest has that is so superior to UI that Whis can't even touch him.

Though I suppose that UI doesn't really increase strength and power directly. It just removes your need to think about doing things like dodging and moving, and has the hax that your movements become sharper, faster and stronger over time. GP could just have UI and a much higher ki capacity.
Exactly, UI combined with specialized techniques like temporal do-over would essentially make him unbeatable unless he’s asleep and even then UI could kick in while he’s unconscious.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:38 pm

TheMikado wrote:
avasatu wrote:I wonder what the Grand Priest has that is so superior to UI that Whis can't even touch him.

Though I suppose that UI doesn't really increase strength and power directly. It just removes your need to think about doing things like dodging and moving, and has the hax that your movements become sharper, faster and stronger over time. GP could just have UI and a much higher ki capacity.
Exactly, UI combined with specialized techniques like temporal do-over would essentially make him unbeatable unless he’s asleep and even then UI could kick in while he’s unconscious.
Now I have this mental image of Goku unconsciously using Ultra Instinct while he's sleeping, leading to shenanigans with the Pilaf Gang.

I absolutely love it :lol:

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by TheMikado » Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:55 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
avasatu wrote:I wonder what the Grand Priest has that is so superior to UI that Whis can't even touch him.

Though I suppose that UI doesn't really increase strength and power directly. It just removes your need to think about doing things like dodging and moving, and has the hax that your movements become sharper, faster and stronger over time. GP could just have UI and a much higher ki capacity.
Exactly, UI combined with specialized techniques like temporal do-over would essentially make him unbeatable unless he’s asleep and even then UI could kick in while he’s unconscious.
Now I have this mental image of Goku unconsciously using Ultra Instinct while he's sleeping, leading to shenanigans with the Pilaf Gang.

I absolutely love it :lol:
I was actually thinking of a Beerus or Whis scene where Beerus is using it in his sleep and inadvertently kicking their butts although we technically already got that so a Pilaf assassination attempt would be pretty funny.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by avasatu » Sat Oct 14, 2017 2:56 pm

TheMikado wrote:
avasatu wrote:I wonder what the Grand Priest has that is so superior to UI that Whis can't even touch him.

Though I suppose that UI doesn't really increase strength and power directly. It just removes your need to think about doing things like dodging and moving, and has the hax that your movements become sharper, faster and stronger over time. GP could just have UI and a much higher ki capacity.
Exactly, UI combined with specialized techniques like temporal do-over would essentially make him unbeatable unless he’s asleep and even then UI could kick in while he’s unconscious.
Whis has temporal hax too, though. I think the Grand Priest exemplifies the notion that Ultra Instinct is not necessarily an increase in power level through the traditional means of just “moar ki plz.”

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by KingKaash » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:02 pm

I have so many different little thoughts on this.

First I think Ultra Instinct is a technique not a form. Being able to move your body without thinking is a technique. That's not a form like Super Saiyan. Sure the aura is there but that's from ki control I believe.

Next how was it achieved? Explanation wise, Whis states that the power of the Spirit Bomb pushing Goku and Goku's willpower pushing back allowed Goku to break through his shell and reach an even higher limit. That would make sense but there's one problem in my opinion. You can push past something coming at you if you still have energy. But at the end of the Spirit Bomb battle, Goku is completely depleted of energy so there's no energy reserve left to break the shell. For example, imagine me going to the gym for an hour and doing so many workouts that my stamina and energy have reached 0. Then someone puts 200 lbs. in front of me and asks me to lift it. If I am dead tired from previous workouts, there's no way I have any energy left to push 200 lbs. even for a little bit. And don't mention the Spirit Bomb energy entering Goku. Because it should vaporized him. Even if he wanted to resist it and contain it and harness it, you can't resist it if you're dead tired. So that part makes no sense to me but I remember Whis concluding that this was only his guess on what he thinks happened to Goku.

Next, I think Jiren has Ultra Instinct. There's no way he could fight with Ultra Instinct Goku if he didn't have it. It explains why he was able to hit SSJBKKx20 without even moving when Goku charged at him.

Next, I think Ultra Instinct is only good to a certain extent. Ultra Instinct is viewed as something GoDs fear and Angels have mastered. But imagine if Krillin had Ultra Instinct. What good would it do him if his body was moving on its own reflexes to attack an opponent. UI Krillin vs SSJB Vegeta, for example, would still be in Vegeta's favor because Vegeta would overpower UI Krillin. So basically Ultra Instinct is incredible to have when you are already extremely powerful. That's why it's insane that Jiren is already so strong and has UI to boost him to a completely different stratosphere.

People I could see reaching this Ultra Instinct: Toppo (next GoD of U11), Frieza (mentally trained to defeat Goku in every conceivable way in Hell), Gohan (extremely smart/analytical and has potential).
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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:08 pm

You know, I didn't think much of it at first, but in episode 111, Freeza says that the power Goku displayed was Ultra Instinct, something that the gods feared.

He never makes any distinction between this speculated "form" that "uses" Ultra Instinct and the Ultra Instinct itself. Simply that the power Goku displayed was Ultra Instinct. It might be clarified later, but for now, I think that's the best evidence we have that Goku's new state of being that he used IS the Ultra Instinct, and it's not just a form he uses to tap into Ultra Instinct.

After all, why complicate things with the distinction?

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by Analytical Delusion » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:15 pm

I wonder...

Perhaps someone has hit on this already in the thread, but is UI the perfect way out of the strength "arms race" and the tons of transformations we have? If the focus from here on out is on perfecting UI (assuming that it still is extremely rare), it could give Goku, Beerus, Vegeta, Freeza (if he sticks around), and Uub eventually, something in common to chase.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by emperior » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:14 am

The new look Goku got is probably only to give a visual distinction of when Goku is using Ultra Instinct. He doesn't even look all that different from his normal state.
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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by HeroR » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:32 am

emperior wrote:The new look Goku got is probably only to give a visual distinction of when Goku is using Ultra Instinct. He doesn't even look all that different from his normal state.
Transformations in Dragon Ball usually doesn't work that way. For example, Goku looks different from his hair to his eyes changing colors. If they were going for a look where Goku is actually in base, but a visual different is presented for the sake of the audience, we would get something like Ultimate Gohan.
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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by TheShadowEmperor8055 » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:02 am

Super DBH released a new vid with the initial seconds being Goku once again accessing Ultra Instinct. Think this the mastered form of it?

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:25 am

TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:Super DBH released a new vid with the initial seconds being Goku once again accessing Ultra Instinct. Think this the mastered form of it?
I think that this is an inaccurate representation of the Ultra Instinct.

Goku is EERILY CALM and stoic when he was using this power against Jiren, not screaming and powering up like normal. He only started to vocalize near the end of that fight, when he was starting to fizzle out.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:20 pm

BTW, something interesting happened to me a few days ago. I slipped in the bathroom and nearly fell over, but my hands reached out to grab the wall and steady me before I did. I didn't consciously think about or decide to do that, it just happened automatically. So then I realized:

Ultra Instinct is real. Sort of.
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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:36 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:BTW, something interesting happened to me a few days ago. I slipped in the bathroom and nearly fell over, but my hands reached out to grab the wall and steady me before I did. I didn't consciously think about or decide to do that, it just happened automatically. So then I realized:

Ultra Instinct is real. Sort of.
It's a well-documented approach to martial arts that's based on conditioning the body to react in a fight as instinctively as one would react when breathing.

In the world of DB, this is upped to be basically put the body on auto-pilot god-mode. Quite literally, seeing as how only Angels like Whis have been named as legitimate masters of the technique. That...... and Goku.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:41 pm

KingKaash wrote:I have so many different little thoughts on this.

First I think Ultra Instinct is a technique not a form. Being able to move your body without thinking is a technique. That's not a form like Super Saiyan. Sure the aura is there but that's from ki control I believe.

Next how was it achieved? Explanation wise, Whis states that the power of the Spirit Bomb pushing Goku and Goku's willpower pushing back allowed Goku to break through his shell and reach an even higher limit. That would make sense but there's one problem in my opinion. You can push past something coming at you if you still have energy. But at the end of the Spirit Bomb battle, Goku is completely depleted of energy so there's no energy reserve left to break the shell. For example, imagine me going to the gym for an hour and doing so many workouts that my stamina and energy have reached 0. Then someone puts 200 lbs. in front of me and asks me to lift it. If I am dead tired from previous workouts, there's no way I have any energy left to push 200 lbs. even for a little bit. And don't mention the Spirit Bomb energy entering Goku. Because it should vaporized him. Even if he wanted to resist it and contain it and harness it, you can't resist it if you're dead tired. So that part makes no sense to me but I remember Whis concluding that this was only his guess on what he thinks happened to Goku.

Next, I think Jiren has Ultra Instinct. There's no way he could fight with Ultra Instinct Goku if he didn't have it. It explains why he was able to hit SSJBKKx20 without even moving when Goku charged at him.

Next, I think Ultra Instinct is only good to a certain extent. Ultra Instinct is viewed as something GoDs fear and Angels have mastered. But imagine if Krillin had Ultra Instinct. What good would it do him if his body was moving on its own reflexes to attack an opponent. UI Krillin vs SSJB Vegeta, for example, would still be in Vegeta's favor because Vegeta would overpower UI Krillin. So basically Ultra Instinct is incredible to have when you are already extremely powerful. That's why it's insane that Jiren is already so strong and has UI to boost him to a completely different stratosphere.

People I could see reaching this Ultra Instinct: Toppo (next GoD of U11), Frieza (mentally trained to defeat Goku in every conceivable way in Hell), Gohan (extremely smart/analytical and has potential).
You're thinking too hard into Bonus limits I think. I get what you're saying 100% but it's more the fact that his willpower prevented him from dying and to do that he had to shatter his limits just for a brief moment. Afterwards he was basically using a Genki Dama battery.
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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:29 pm

avasatu wrote:I wonder what the Grand Priest has that is so superior to UI that Whis can't even touch him.

Though I suppose that UI doesn't really increase strength and power directly. It just removes your need to think about doing things like dodging and moving, and has the hax that your movements become sharper, faster and stronger over time. GP could just have UI and a much higher ki capacity.
It's a very simple concept actually. The Grand Priest has a much higher battle power (stronger ki) than Whis. It's basically the same concept as with regular fighters who don't have Ultra Instinct. If character A has a power level of, lets say, 100, but character B has a power level of 10.000, than character B can pretty much one shot character A, no contest.

It's the same with Ultra Instinct. If Ultra Instinct user A has a power level of 100, and Ultra Instinct user B has a power level of 10.000, than Ultra Instinct user B can most likely beat Ultra Instinct user A.

It's as simple as that.

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:14 am

With the release of episode 115, we get some more looks at the Ultra Instinct.

More of the NEP, really, but still something.

Without even opening his eyes, Ultra Instinct Goku easily dodges SS Kefla's blasts. So, the Ultra Instinct DEFINITELY doesn't need any eyes to function properly. We also see in the NEP that Goku is powering up and screaming and using his Kamehameha. Maybe Goku will continue to evolve the Ultra Instinct.

As well, no mention is made to Goku having a form that accesses the Ultra Instinct in the episode, just that he broke his shell again and manages to somehow utilize the Ultra Instinct again despite all odds. I'm strongly leaning toward the Ultra Instinct simply being Goku's form, and not a secondary power thing.

Tune in next week so that we can see Ultra Instinct Goku in action!

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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by emperior » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:46 am

Episode 115 showed that Ultra Instinct is a sort of "mysterious" power that Goku unconsciously activates. In this state, his eyes go silver, his hair is slightly lifted upward and his body seemingly reaches its limit. It's definitely not a transformation, and Goku doesn't need to/can't transform when using Ultra Instinct because his body is at its peak in that state. We will definitely know more about UI in the future, and I'm very interested in seeing what decides a battle between two fighters with UI. Whis said he can't be compared to his father. Maybe the difference will be in power level as always, but I hope it will be something different. It would be cool if, for once, the battle between two UI users could be decided based on skill and pure martial arts. Like, Grand Priest is so skilled his body punishes every attack he receives with an awesome counter-attack.
I'd love to see Goku's next training being based on martial arts moves and not just about training his body to become stronger and faster.
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Re: Ultra Instinct - A Thread for Theory Crafting and Discussion

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:53 am

Another thing is that Goku seems to be much more........ how would you say it..... "in control" of the Ultra Instinct in the NEP.

He's screaming and using a Kamehameha, something he only did when he was starting to revert back to his base form in his fight against Jiren.

Of course, it could also be that this is our indicator that he's running low on steam in terms of maintaining the state, when he starts to scream and use Ki attacks and whatnot. That'd actually be an interesting thought, that as he starts to reach his limits, he starts to "regain control" of himself and vocalizes, whereas when fully in the Ultra Instinct state, he's silent and calm.

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