Did Goku and jiren create a black hole?

[Polyphase Avatron]

We know he wasn't there before he reemerged. He went somewhere. So a black hole is a good bet. I think he went to another dimension then got back somehow. Possibly via IT. Or the black hole simply ran out of juice and reinverted itself and he popped back in.

Black holes don't work like that.

[Asura]

That's what I was basing it on. I'm guessing he was just like a meter or so below the bottom of it. Probably the force of the explosion smashed him into the ground, or it's how he evaded it.

There would have been another crater/more damage if he came from the ground with the eruption of energy though.

I don't think we saw the bottom of the crater after he emerged, did we?

Yup, we did. Here's the crater right after the spirit bomb explodes:



Here's the beam of light that happens when Goku's returning, notice it's directly in the center, meaning there should be a lot of damage/another crater directly in the center if he erupted from the ground there, but there isn't.



Now here's a view of the crater during UI Goku and Jiren's fight:

[apex_pretador]

I believe so. That "black sphere" just sucked in light within a range, which is literal definition of a black hole. As for Goku being sucked and other competitors not, we have to keep in mind that all competitors are strong and they were many times farther away from the black hole than Goku, who was basically almost at the event horizon and totally exhausted.

As for where mass comes from, the spirit bomb's energy was compressed into a singularity

[Ziegander]

In this thread: no one understands what a black hole is or how one operates. Everyone makes up their own rules and explanations for what black holes are and how they operate so that they can confirm their own theories about how Goku and Jiren created a tiny black hole. The struggle. It is real.

[Lord Beerus]

It certainly looked like a black hole in first inspection. Given Whis' comments of how Goku fought against the power of Genki Dama consuming it, it would appear what happened is that the immense pressure for Jiren and SSJB Kaioken Goku pushing the Genki Dama back and forth, lead to the sphere itself collapsing and turning itself inside out. Revealing the void or passageway into the realm of the energy that the Genki Dama consisted off and where it collects and stores its energy.

It shrank considerably, massive black-holes are suspected to be smaller then our planet size, if not less.

If Jiren is strong enough to withstand the pull, and on the other hand Goku not, then the whole arena should've collapsed in no time sucking all the weaklings. Kinda hints to just a reference to have something "real" to compare to the powers, it may just be a reference after all, a lousy one though for us physics geeks.

Hmm. So it's not really a black hole then, would you agree?

[Asura]

In this thread: no one understands what a black hole is or how one operates. Everyone makes up their own rules and explanations for what black holes are and how they operate so that they can confirm their own theories about how Goku and Jiren created a tiny black hole. The struggle. It is real.

Don't you think it's possible though that TOEI just made it look like a black hole to make it look cool, without even knowing themselves how it works or how it operates?

It collapsed and sucked in the energy of the spirit bomb, then Goku fell into it, and then he completely disappeared. Until they eventually explain what happened to Goku there, the black hole theory is still a pretty solid theory if we're just going by the visuals, since like I said I doubt that TOEI would follow real scientific rules if they were going for a black hole here.

[Polyphase Avatron]

In this thread: no one understands what a black hole is or how one operates. Everyone makes up their own rules and explanations for what black holes are and how they operate so that they can confirm their own theories about how Goku and Jiren created a tiny black hole. The struggle. It is real.

Don't you think it's possible though that TOEI just made it look like a black hole to make it look cool, without even knowing themselves how it works or how it operates?

It collapsed and sucked in the energy of the spirit bomb, then Goku fell into it, and then he completely disappeared. Until they eventually explain what happened to Goku there, the black hole theory is still a pretty solid theory if we're just going by the visuals, since like I said I doubt that TOEI would follow real scientific rules if they were going for a black hole here.

I think it would have been a pretty important thing for Whis to mention when he was explaining what happened. No one said anything of the sort, instead they just said that the Genki Dama exploded and Goku may have been vaporized, then Whis said that he just barely evaded the explosion. I still think he was under the floor.

BTW, in your screenshot of the crater floor after Goku emerges it's not very clear and we can't see for sure that there isn't more damage.

[Pluto]

In this thread: no one understands what a black hole is or how one operates. Everyone makes up their own rules and explanations for what black holes are and how they operate so that they can confirm their own theories about how Goku and Jiren created a tiny black hole. The struggle. It is real.

Rather then judging, just enlighten us.

Ps, we know jack shit about black-holes, and i happen to understand most of what science gave us so far.

Hmm. So it's not really a black hole then, would you agree?

Yup, either that or what just Asura said.

Don't you think it's possible though that TOEI just made it look like a black hole to make it look cool, without even knowing themselves how it works or how it operates?

It collapsed and sucked in the energy of the spirit bomb, then Goku fell into it, and then he completely disappeared. Until they eventually explain what happened to Goku there, the black hole theory is still a pretty solid theory if we're just going by the visuals, since like I said I doubt that TOEI would follow real scientific rules if they were going for a black hole here.

[Ziegander]

In this thread: no one understands what a black hole is or how one operates. Everyone makes up their own rules and explanations for what black holes are and how they operate so that they can confirm their own theories about how Goku and Jiren created a tiny black hole. The struggle. It is real.

Rather then judging, just enlighten us.

Ps, we know jack shit about black-holes, and i happen to understand most of what science gave us so far.

Myself and at least one other mentioned how, aside from the energy (or non-energy) being black, there is no other evidence to suggest Jiren and Goku made a black hole, because what we saw in the episode exhibited absolutely NONE of the behavior typical to a black hole. Gravity being especially the key thing missing. I don't know how to make that plainer.

This thread can be easily summed up as, "Did Goku and Jiren create a black hole?" With several posters coming in to say, "Yeah, it looked like one, so I'm positive they did," or "Definitely. It was black, it was round, holes are round. Black hole."

[Asura]

In this thread: no one understands what a black hole is or how one operates. Everyone makes up their own rules and explanations for what black holes are and how they operate so that they can confirm their own theories about how Goku and Jiren created a tiny black hole. The struggle. It is real.

Don't you think it's possible though that TOEI just made it look like a black hole to make it look cool, without even knowing themselves how it works or how it operates?

It collapsed and sucked in the energy of the spirit bomb, then Goku fell into it, and then he completely disappeared. Until they eventually explain what happened to Goku there, the black hole theory is still a pretty solid theory if we're just going by the visuals, since like I said I doubt that TOEI would follow real scientific rules if they were going for a black hole here.

I think it would have been a pretty important thing for Whis to mention when he was explaining what happened. No one said anything of the sort, instead they just said that the Genki Dama exploded and Goku may have been vaporized, then Whis said that he just barely evaded the explosion. I still think he was under the floor.

BTW, in your screenshot of the crater floor after Goku emerges it's not very clear and we can't see for sure that there isn't more damage.

Whis doesn't say he just barely evaded the explosion, he says:

"In that big explosion, the raging power of the Spirit Bomb that entered Goku, and Goku's own power to resist it... Beyond that clash of power, Goku broke through the shell to the deeper potential within himself."

Whis was trying to explain how Goku got the transformation, but nothing about what happened to the spirit bomb or where he went or what that black hole looking thing was.

It's pretty clear given it looks exactly like the first picture before he re-appeared. There's no difference between the two pictures. Also there's this shot that I forgot about which shows Gohan & Piccolo in the same position they were before Goku appeared, and now after, and the crater still looks the same.

Before


After



I'd say this lends a bit more credence to the black hole theory, since it still begs the question of where the hell did Goku go if not another dimension of sorts? Plus if he was just under the floor, how come no one could sense him at all?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Those dust clouds could be obscuring the damage. And couldn't they just not have sensed him because his ki was so depleted?

[Asura]

Those dust clouds could be obscuring the damage. And couldn't they just not have sensed him because his ki was so depleted?

What do you mean? You can see right through the clouds, they're transparent. They said his ki completely vanished as if he was vaporized, so I don't think it was because his ki was so depleted. Plus, how would he even get under the floor? The spirit bomb/black hole thingy exploded in mid-air, and Goku fell into it in mid-air, how would he somehow transition to be underneath the floor?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Those dust clouds could be obscuring the damage. And couldn't they just not have sensed him because his ki was so depleted?

What do you mean? You can see right through the clouds, they're transparent. They said his ki completely vanished as if he was vaporized, so I don't think it was because his ki was so depleted. Plus, how would he even get under the floor? The spirit bomb/black hole thingy exploded in mid-air, and Goku fell into it in mid-air, how would he somehow transition to be underneath the floor?

The animation is kind of hard to make out, and it's only on screen for a few seconds. I wouldn't put too much stake in your interpretation of how it looks. And it's quite possible for someone's ki to be so low that it can't be sensed... after all Whis said he was using the power of the Genki Dama to power his body, so they could have sensed that but not his own ki and figure that it was just the residual energy of the Genki Dama instead of Goku. I think when it exploded he was blasted downwards. I mean you see a pillar of light erupt from the floor and then he stands up from the crater floor... it just makes the most sense to me.

[Asura]

Those dust clouds could be obscuring the damage. And couldn't they just not have sensed him because his ki was so depleted?

What do you mean? You can see right through the clouds, they're transparent. They said his ki completely vanished as if he was vaporized, so I don't think it was because his ki was so depleted. Plus, how would he even get under the floor? The spirit bomb/black hole thingy exploded in mid-air, and Goku fell into it in mid-air, how would he somehow transition to be underneath the floor?

The animation is kind of hard to make out, and it's only on screen for a few seconds. I wouldn't put too much stake in your interpretation of how it looks. And it's quite possible for someone's ki to be so low that it can't be sensed... after all Whis said he was using the power of the Genki Dama to power his body, so they could have sensed that but not his own ki and figure that it was just the residual energy of the Genki Dama instead of Goku. I think when it exploded he was blasted downwards. I mean you see a pillar of light erupt from the floor and then he stands up from the crater floor... it just makes the most sense to me.

Well, I guess you're free to believe in your own interpretation of the events since it's still unclear as to what happened (and hopefully it might be explained during tomorrow's episode), but I think there's more than enough evidence in the pictures to show that he didn't come from the floor. Even if you're having trouble seeing what's behind that smoke cloud in the second picture, it's off-center from where Goku would have come from, and it's also too small for that beam of light which would have made a crater the size of the light.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Lots of times craters are a lot smaller than the blasts that create them (look at the Genki Dama on Namek for example). Anyway unless it is further explained I'm sticking to what I said.

[Ziegander]

Hey, if it turns out that the show ends up saying the Genki Dama was compressed into a "black hole" that sent Goku into another dimension where he trained with Zarama for 100 years and learned to utilize Ultra Instinct, I'm fine with that. I just think people in this thread are incredibly quick to jump to the conclusion that it was definitely a black hole because it sort of looked like one.

[avasatu]

Even if it was a black hole, Goku is well beyond universal, so he should be able to easily tank it. I think it was much more than that...

Then again, his body was depleted before he got hit by the bomb. Surviving that is much more impressive now that I think about it in those terms...

[Pluto]

Myself and at least one other mentioned how, aside from the energy (or non-energy) being black, there is no other evidence to suggest Jiren and Goku made a black hole, because what we saw in the episode exhibited absolutely NONE of the behavior typical to a black hole. Gravity being especially the key thing missing. I don't know how to make that plainer.

This thread can be easily summed up as, "Did Goku and Jiren create a black hole?" With several posters coming in to say, "Yeah, it looked like one, so I'm positive they did," or "Definitely. It was black, it was round, holes are round. Black hole."

And that is what we clearly are saying as well, from what i could tell, everyone was trying to make sense of it, without saying "In this thread: no one understands...".
When one assumes of knowing something, at least in a better manner then someone else, expression is key. Myself, i have no problems standing corrected, learning something new, but, belittling does not aid anyone, it makes any kind of "right knowledge" seem bad cause it's just not given properly.

Everything aside, it's a refreshing development, and it's worth having a normal, intellectual debate over it.