Do you think the tournament filled with so many jobbers was a good idea?

[precita]

In almost every ep of the TOP, someone is jobbing. It's like everyone is a jobber. The moment a character gets some spotlight, not counting Goku/Vegeta, you expect them to job in the next episode.

For example Frost got a big ep torturing Roshi. What happens in the next ep? He jobs to Freeza. Krillin had his spotlight ep, he jobs to Frost in the same ep. Tien jobbed when he didn't even know he was jobbing. Hit just jobbed to Jiren. The entire Pride Troopers but the final 3 all jobbed. The Yardrat jobbed easily to Freeza. All the "fodder" are essentially jobbers given they all get taken out easily.

It's like characters can't be taken out without being jobbers, only a few characters like Roshi have respectable exits. Here a job, there a job, everywhere a job job. I'm willing to bet the two Nameks job to Piccolo/Gohan next week.

[namekiansaiyan]

Stop using that stupid word.

How can you even possibly judge the Namekians yet?

[gohan_black]

Stop using that stupid word.

How can you even possibly judge the Namekians yet?

he has a valid point about the namekians. the way they were intreduced. you know for sure they are there to fill time

[Ziegander]

So, I'm starting to write a fan-fiction rewrite of the Tournament of Power from episode 97 and on, and it's hard because of power scaling. Even the simple fact of the existence of Super Saiyan and it's rigid 50 times multiplier makes things a pain, but then you go all the way up to Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x 20 just in Universe 7, and that means that your scale from Roshi to Goku is, even lowballing the impact of transformations beyond SSJ3 a metric ton, no less than 1 : 200,000! And then Jiren gets involved. So for the other Universes, the writers have to have characters that can challenge a Super Saiyan Blue level, but also characters that would challenge someone like Piccolo who is, like, Buu Saga SSJ2 level, maybe. And that gap between Piccolo and SSB is actually vastly larger than the gap between Roshi and Piccolo, which is kind of insane when you stop to think about it.

So, the point I'm trying to make is, the writers are kind of locked into this. They have established how strong the base Saiyans are, which is FAR stronger than a lot of really strong characters, and then they have to live up to the form multipliers they've given those Saiyans while still including a diverse cast and trying to make things interesting by challenging different tiers of fighters here and there.

For example, if Krillin has a power level of, lowballing here, 50,000, he's WAY, way weaker than base Goku. Even without considering the two base theory, or god ki in Goku's base form, Goku's base form fights evenly with RoF Final Form Freeza who is like 300 times as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan was at the time. And Goku's gotten stronger since then. So, even if we say Gohan's power had drastically regressed and his 50 times multiplier from Super Saiyan only got him a power level of 25 million or so, that means Goku's base form (and I'm almost positive it's way stronger than this) is at least 7.5 billion. And then when you're designing characters from other universes you have to think, okay, this guy should be a challenge for Super Saiyan Goku, or this guy should be a challenge for Android 17, but when you do that, those characters have power levels that make the gap between Krillin and Base Goku look like an easy hop. That would give Magetta a power level between 300 and 400 billion, but you've got guys like Roshi, Tien and Krillin in the tournament as well.

The established power of Universe 7's heavy hitters is what is causing a lot of issues as I see it. Super has sort of tried to steer away from concrete power scaling and doesn't really worry too much about power level consistency, but, really, even if they try to portray Base Goku as, like, twice as strong as Krillin, he's still 100 times as strong as a SSJ2 and who knows how much stronger as a SSJG, SSB and on up from there. To pad the ranks of the tournament out and give people like Roshi and Tien something to fight, there just has to be characters that are completely out of their league when faced even with base Goku because base Goku has been established to have immense power compared against the entire rest of his own universe.

[namekiansaiyan]

Stop using that stupid word.

How can you even possibly judge the Namekians yet?

he has a valid point about the namekians. the way they were intreduced. you know for sure they are there to fill time

They were introduced trying to knock Goku out so what was so bad? Gohan and Piccolo stopped them, they had a little interaction and Piccolo is excited so I can't see the problem. They will most likely be the last 2 left from team Universe 6.

[SsjCookie]

In almost every ep of the TOP, someone is jobbing. It's like everyone is a jobber. The moment a character gets some spotlight, not counting Goku/Vegeta, you expect them to job in the next episode.

For example Frost got a big ep torturing Roshi. What happens in the next ep? He jobs to Freeza. Krillin had his spotlight ep, he jobs to Frost in the same ep. Tien jobbed when he didn't even know he was jobbing. Hit just jobbed to Jiren. The entire Pride Troopers but the final 3 all jobbed. The Yardrat jobbed easily to Freeza. All the "fodder" are essentially jobbers given they all get taken out easily.

It's like characters can't be taken out without being jobbers, only a few characters like Roshi have respectable exits. Here a job, there a job, everywhere a job job. I'm willing to bet the two Nameks job to Piccolo/Gohan next week.

We get it....they are all jobbers.

[Simere]

There should have been more. Many fighters getting mowed down at once is something I would have liked to see.

[Nickolaidas]

So, I'm starting to write a fan-fiction rewrite of the Tournament of Power from episode 97 and on, and it's hard because of power scaling. Even the simple fact of the existence of Super Saiyan and it's rigid 50 times multiplier makes things a pain, but then you go all the way up to Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x 20 just in Universe 7, and that means that your scale from Roshi to Goku is, even lowballing the impact of transformations beyond SSJ3 a metric ton, no less than 1 : 200,000! And then Jiren gets involved. So for the other Universes, the writers have to have characters that can challenge a Super Saiyan Blue level, but also characters that would challenge someone like Piccolo who is, like, Buu Saga SSJ2 level, maybe. And that gap between Piccolo and SSB is actually vastly larger than the gap between Roshi and Piccolo, which is kind of insane when you stop to think about it.

So, the point I'm trying to make is, the writers are kind of locked into this. They have established how strong the base Saiyans are, which is FAR stronger than a lot of really strong characters, and then they have to live up to the form multipliers they've given those Saiyans while still including a diverse cast and trying to make things interesting by challenging different tiers of fighters here and there.

For example, if Krillin has a power level of, lowballing here, 50,000, he's WAY, way weaker than base Goku. Even without considering the two base theory, or god ki in Goku's base form, Goku's base form fights evenly with RoF Final Form Freeza who is like 300 times as strong as Super Saiyan Gohan was at the time. And Goku's gotten stronger since then. So, even if we say Gohan's power had drastically regressed and his 50 times multiplier from Super Saiyan only got him a power level of 25 million or so, that means Goku's base form (and I'm almost positive it's way stronger than this) is at least 7.5 billion. And then when you're designing characters from other universes you have to think, okay, this guy should be a challenge for Super Saiyan Goku, or this guy should be a challenge for Android 17, but when you do that, those characters have power levels that make the gap between Krillin and Base Goku look like an easy hop. That would give Magetta a power level between 300 and 400 billion, but you've got guys like Roshi, Tien and Krillin in the tournament as well.

The established power of Universe 7's heavy hitters is what is causing a lot of issues as I see it. Super has sort of tried to steer away from concrete power scaling and doesn't really worry too much about power level consistency, but, really, even if they try to portray Base Goku as, like, twice as strong as Krillin, he's still 100 times as strong as a SSJ2 and who knows how much stronger as a SSJG, SSB and on up from there. To pad the ranks of the tournament out and give people like Roshi and Tien something to fight, there just has to be characters that are completely out of their league when faced even with base Goku because base Goku has been established to have immense power compared against the entire rest of his own universe.

I don't think you cannot easily apply DBZ power levels to Super. Transformations to Super seem to be symbolic and have no numbers. When a character transforms it is to make you realize he's getting serious, not that he is now 50/100/10000000 times stronger. It doesn't seem to work that way anymore.

I see it like this:

Base Goku: Let's have some fun!
SSJ Goku: Wow, looks like he can take a few hits!
SSJ2 Goku: He's good! A lot better than most guys I fight!
SSJ3 Goku: I'm *really* having fun!! Wooo-hoo!
Red God Goku: Okay, time to get serious.
SSB Goku (or any latest form): Okay, now I'm *dead* serious.
Ultra Goku (or any newly acquired form): I have to literally give my heart and soul into this fight and battle like I've never battled before.

[Jigurashi]

I don't know why you throw around that word like that. Hardly any of the people that were defeated were jobbers.

[Kataphrut]

More evidence that 'job' should be struck from Dragon Ball Z fans' word of the day calendar.

Here's the thing, in a tournament like this not every character can get a heroic send-off like Roshi. In fact, that would be terrible because it would diminish the impact of that moment. The thing is, this tournament has 80 fighters and I would estimate there are around 20 characters with whom our investment is meant to lie. The Universe 7 team, the main Universe 6 fighters and some of the more prominent antagonists like Jiren, Ribrianne or Bergamo. From the looks of it, the first half was mostly spent giving them each a bit of spotlight so it would mean something when they start getting taken out in the second half. That necessitates a lot of fighters (who were never going to get much characterisation, let's be fair) who exist only to put on a show so the heroes can look good. That is the essence of jobbing, but what would the alternative be?

Make no mistake, what Hit did this episode is the furthest thing from jobbing. He already had two knockouts and a focus episode to his name, his other appearances built up his reputation as the linch-pin of Universe 6 and his defeat at the end signalled that things were about to get worse and the remaining fighters would have to steel themselves and carry on the torch. His loss was a sure sign the stakes were raised, it wasn't to make Jiren look good because Jiren already looked good. Saying Hit "jobbed" to Jiren is like saying Obi-Wan "jobbed" to Darth Vader.

[sintzu]

It was a terrable idea that's brought down the arc. Having 3-4 developed characters from each universe wouldn't only improve the story but the production would be easier on the staff, resulting in better fights.

[JazzMazz]

It was a terrable idea that's brought down the arc. Having 3-4 developed characters from each universe wouldn't only improve the story but the production would be easier on the staff, resulting in better fights.

Definitely agree.

A think something that proves this point were some of the character bios released on Toei's site.

The character bio for that random guy that Piccolo knocked off had something cool about him being a survivor of war. Thats something that could have been explored about the character, but never was because they never got around to it.

[Cipher]

Does losing make you a jobber? If so, I don't see any way for most competitors in an elimination tournament to wind wind up "jobbing" at some point.

The tournament has become vastly more interesting to me now that we're down to the final thirty and everyone can start sharing screen time a bit more evenly and showing more personality, but I don't think there was any way to get there that didn't involve a lot of one-and-dones to impart a feeling of progression either.

[sintzu]

The character bio for that random guy that Piccolo knocked off had something cool about him being a survivor of war. Thats something that could have been explored about the character, but never was because they never got around to it.

Instead they're wasting their time with the 2 saiyan and the 3 u2 girls. Another interesting character was the one Gohan fought.

[darzap]

I don't think this was inherently a bad idea. We have seen rudiments of good ideas, such as:
- Roshi sealing an opponent away that was a threat for reasons other than strength
- temporary alliances
- people saving their allies through the use of abilities such as flying without Ki, time skip, instantaneous movement and so on

The nature of the tournament poses a couple of problems
- explain how the weak characters are not immediately eliminated and why we should care about them (with respect to the outcome of the tournament)
- show a battle royal of 80 people in a believable fashion
- have believable power scaling.

I think the major mistakes (and hence rooms for improvements) are:
- strict chronological order of events: So far I have not seen any indication that two episodes covered different places of the arena at the same time. This leads to a problem: What are, for example, Gohan and Piccolo doing all the time, we are seeing Krillin, Caulifla, Android 17, Vegeta, Magetta, Freeza, Dsypo, Hit and so on fighting? Apparently nothing worth showing or which results in any eliminations. What are the robots doing? Nothing of consequence much apparently. How about doing 3 episodes with separate characters and at the end of the third we get some visual cues that the end scenes of the other two happened a few seconds ago, so we get some sense of important events occurring simultaneously and are not left wondering why only a handful of characters do anything of meaning at the same time.
- give us some sense that the contribution of other characters matters. Ok, so Krillin is disabling that blind dude with his dirty shoe. That's all great, but Final Form Frieza could have thrown out that enemy in 3 seconds, so what's the point? If we would see, for example, Goku failing to hit a fighter who uses some kind of distraction, which Tien can look through because of his independent eye or something. Let Tien step in to figure something out, so Goku can step in somewhere else, where he is needed. It doesn't have to be "here are some weak fighters for the weak fighters to beat". in my opinion, Krillin doesn't have to beat anybody if he assists in finding an effective way to beat 2 or 3 guys which would have caused serious drain for the heavy hitters, because he had some gimmick, that already justifies Krillin's participation and makes more śense with respect to the power scaling.

[TheOne]

I'm not exactly sure what you guys were expecting with this tournament.

This is a bout between the WEAKEST universes. Let me say it again. This is a fight between THE WEAKEST UNIVERSES OUT THERE.

Of course majority of the fighters here aren't going to be very powerful. U7 has a lot of exceptional fighters and need to handle these guys with ease so they can fight more challenging enemies down the road.

If U7 were to struggle with all the WEAK people in THIS tournament, how in the world would you expect them to handle the more powerful opponents in the exempt universes? More BS power ups for everyone like Roshi and Krillin apparently 'training behind the scenes all throughout Z'' and krillin "lifting weights' to get back in shape.

Obviously they're pacing the fighters for future arcs. The problem with this fan base is that everyone sees arc to arc. Not thinking about the future.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Stop using that stupid word.

How can you even possibly judge the Namekians yet?

he has a valid point about the namekians. the way they were intreduced. you know for sure they are there to fill time

They were introduced trying to knock Goku out so what was so bad? Gohan and Piccolo stopped them, they had a little interaction and Piccolo is excited so I can't see the problem. They will most likely be the last 2 left from team Universe 6.

How have you determined they will be the last two left? There is absolutely nothing that even remotely implies that.

[namekiansaiyan]

he has a valid point about the namekians. the way they were intreduced. you know for sure they are there to fill time

They were introduced trying to knock Goku out so what was so bad? Gohan and Piccolo stopped them, they had a little interaction and Piccolo is excited so I can't see the problem. They will most likely be the last 2 left from team Universe 6.

How have you determined they will be the last two left? There is absolutely nothing that even remotely implies that.

Just because the next episodes are focused on the Universe 6 Saiyans. It is does not mean they will be the last 2 but this fight with the Namekians looks like it is going to go over many episodes before a focused episode to finish it.

[precita]

The two Nameks might be defeated by Gohan/Piccolo within less than 10 minutes, it doesn't seem like they have a full ep. We know from the upcoming titles they're not the focus of any of the following eps either.

The two Nameks might just be jabroni's. Just like those other two guys Gohan/Piccolo beat prior. The king of jobbers.

[namekiansaiyan]

The two Nameks might be defeated by Gohan/Piccolo within less than 10 minutes, it doesn't seem like they have a full ep. We know from the upcoming titles they're not the focus of any of the following eps either.

The two Nameks might just be jabroni's. Just like those other two guys Gohan/Piccolo beat prior. The king of jobbers.

This post definitely seems like a post that was made to deliberately annoy me.

The rules that many people seem to use to predict what is going to happen seem to be that unless directly stated, a character is useless unless they are a Saiyan.

They are not mentioned in the previews becuase they are not the focus, simple as that really. You all thought they were going in episode 111 but they did nothing.