Jiren is not simple brute.
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Jiren is not simple brute.
I was kinda worried that jiren will turn out to be a broly character(beats characters only based on strength),but I was proven wrong.
He successfully blocked hit,adapted to timeskip and countered hit's clone with out any knowledge.
And also this:
https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/ji ... nt.1115066/
It may be to much text but i recommend to read it all ,its really interesting and it gives Jiren some character
Many of us think that Jiren is simply meditating,as we know meditating is in some way is training your mind or rather reaching a focus level beyond the normal
But thats not the case Jiren isn't simply meditating he is doing something called "The Zazen"
Whats the Zazen you may ask.
Zazen is a meditative discipline that is typically the primary practice. The precise meaning and method of zazen varies from school to school, but in general it can be regarded as a means of insight into the nature of existence.
While the mind may wander off into thoughts of the past, interpretations of the present, and speculations concerning the future, the body is always right here and right now.
Jiren mind is thinking about the past the present and the future at the same time .He is thinking about posibbilitys that could accour
Very generally speaking, zazen practice is taught in one of three ways.
Concentration
Introspection
(just sitting)
Lets have a look at the third one
Shikantaza
Shikantaza is a form of meditation, in which the practitioner does not use any specific object of meditation(Jiren doesn't use anything);rather, practitioners remain as much as possible in the present moment, aware of and observing what passes through their minds and around them(Do you really think anyone can attack Jiren without Jiren being aware of it). says, in his , "Sitting fixedly, think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Nonthinking. This is the art of Zazen."
Posture:
The main posture of the Zazen also known as
Kekkafuza (full-lotus)
looks like this
Now look at Jiren pose
Tell me what you think of this ?
He successfully blocked hit,adapted to timeskip and countered hit's clone with out any knowledge.
And also this:
https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/ji ... nt.1115066/
It may be to much text but i recommend to read it all ,its really interesting and it gives Jiren some character
Many of us think that Jiren is simply meditating,as we know meditating is in some way is training your mind or rather reaching a focus level beyond the normal
But thats not the case Jiren isn't simply meditating he is doing something called "The Zazen"
Whats the Zazen you may ask.
Zazen is a meditative discipline that is typically the primary practice. The precise meaning and method of zazen varies from school to school, but in general it can be regarded as a means of insight into the nature of existence.
While the mind may wander off into thoughts of the past, interpretations of the present, and speculations concerning the future, the body is always right here and right now.
Jiren mind is thinking about the past the present and the future at the same time .He is thinking about posibbilitys that could accour
Very generally speaking, zazen practice is taught in one of three ways.
Concentration
Introspection
(just sitting)
Lets have a look at the third one
Shikantaza
Shikantaza is a form of meditation, in which the practitioner does not use any specific object of meditation(Jiren doesn't use anything);rather, practitioners remain as much as possible in the present moment, aware of and observing what passes through their minds and around them(Do you really think anyone can attack Jiren without Jiren being aware of it). says, in his , "Sitting fixedly, think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Nonthinking. This is the art of Zazen."
Posture:
The main posture of the Zazen also known as
Kekkafuza (full-lotus)
looks like this
Now look at Jiren pose
Tell me what you think of this ?
Why power levels are important?
The genre and roots of dragon ball
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Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
That...is actually really fascinating to learn about. I love when people can make connections to the real world, be it the case or not.
Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
At first,I thought the same but it is a japanese thing.So,it is most likely intentional.MaskedRider wrote:That...is actually really fascinating to learn about. I love when people can make connections to the real world, be it the case or not.
Why power levels are important?
The genre and roots of dragon ball
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Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
I already knew he wasn't a brute. Seems like there are some that just claim he is because he tanks a lot of hits. He tanked Goku's blows, he dodged and countered Hitto's attacks. Quite impressive how he countered and adapted to Tokitobashi + Cross Dimension within seconds. His ability to read movement and adapt is insane.
Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
I'm thinking about the past, present and future right now. We all do it. That passage isn't framing the mind wandering as a goal to reach, or mystifying it as a superpower to analyze all possible outcomes at once, but rather as a reality to be accepted. Don't try to force yourself to think certain things, don't try to force yourself to not think certain things; let thoughts and sensations come and go as they will while maintaining awareness and, sooner or later, you'll reach a "not thinking" state.Hawk9211 wrote:Zazen is a meditative discipline that is typically the primary practice. The precise meaning and method of zazen varies from school to school, but in general it can be regarded as a means of insight into the nature of existence.
While the mind may wander off into thoughts of the past, interpretations of the present, and speculations concerning the future, the body is always right here and right now.
Jiren mind is thinking about the past the present and the future at the same time .He is thinking about posibbilitys that could accour
An object in this context means more than just a physical item. It could be your breathing, a certain ideal, or a particular goal — like killing Son Goku. It's the focus of your meditation. We don't know what's going on in Jiren's mind so we can't say what he's using or not.Shikantaza is a form of meditation, in which the practitioner does not use any specific object of meditation(Jiren doesn't use anything)
I think it's full lotus posture. More forms of meditation than zazen uses this posture, and even if it were zazen there's nothing particularly more mystical about zazen over other forms of meditation. And if meditating was all you needed to know Jiren wasn't a brute, then we've known that for quite awhile.The main posture of the Zazen also known as
Kekkafuza (full-lotus)
looks like this
Now look at Jiren pose
Tell me what you think of this ?
Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
Why some people like comparing Jiren with Broly? and not with Janemba, Nappa, Kid Buu or I don't know Bojack or even C-13... why is it always Broly? its not like Broly didn't know how to fight https://youtu.be/Mqn9gX_eOOw?t=102
Broly is not all about power, its about battles. Jiren is all about power, he doesn't even want to fight Goku or weak fighters.
Broly is not all about power, its about battles. Jiren is all about power, he doesn't even want to fight Goku or weak fighters.
♥ Zamasu, Broly, Mira & Fu ♥
Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
Jiren outright said he wanted to face the Genki-dama, so he allowed it to be finished. Jiren clearly has the soul of a martial artist, he just isn't talkative.BrolyKale wrote:Why some people like comparing Jiren with Broly? and not with Janemba, Nappa, Kid Buu or I don't know Bojack or even C-13... why is it always Broly? its not like Broly didn't know how to fight https://youtu.be/Mqn9gX_eOOw?t=102
Broly is not all about power, its about battles. Jiren is all about power, he doesn't even want to fight Goku or weak fighters.
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Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
That's what I'm saying, its all about power. If you are powerful, he will face you, if you are not he will ignore you.JulieYBM wrote:Jiren outright said he wanted to face the Genki-dama, so he allowed it to be finished. Jiren clearly has the soul of a martial artist, he just isn't talkative.BrolyKale wrote:Why some people like comparing Jiren with Broly? and not with Janemba, Nappa, Kid Buu or I don't know Bojack or even C-13... why is it always Broly? its not like Broly didn't know how to fight https://youtu.be/Mqn9gX_eOOw?t=102
Broly is not all about power, its about battles. Jiren is all about power, he doesn't even want to fight Goku or weak fighters.
Jiren won't face you if you aren't a threat
Broly, on the other hand will fight with anyone who wants to fight with him (doesn't matter if you are strong, weak,...) and if you don't fight him he will probably kill you, lol.
As you can see Broly clearly wants to fight, that's his motivation, fight fight fight all day.
But I like both of them, I find them interesting.
♥ Zamasu, Broly, Mira & Fu ♥
Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
Aha, I see. I mistook the context.
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Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
I didnt take it as him being a martial artist. I took it as him wanting to show everyone it is hopeless for them.JulieYBM wrote:Jiren outright said he wanted to face the Genki-dama, so he allowed it to be finished. Jiren clearly has the soul of a martial artist, he just isn't talkative.BrolyKale wrote:Why some people like comparing Jiren with Broly? and not with Janemba, Nappa, Kid Buu or I don't know Bojack or even C-13... why is it always Broly? its not like Broly didn't know how to fight https://youtu.be/Mqn9gX_eOOw?t=102
Broly is not all about power, its about battles. Jiren is all about power, he doesn't even want to fight Goku or weak fighters.
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Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
Jiren is just there to protect his universe and it seems like he only fights against tough opponents. I don't think he wants to prove to anyone "hey, look I'm the strongest here"
He also wants to make a wish... Well, he is definitely strong and Goku has to beat him one way or another.
He also wants to make a wish... Well, he is definitely strong and Goku has to beat him one way or another.
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Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
It was specifically mentioned that by crushing Goku the other universes would lose hope.BrolyKale wrote:Jiren is just there to protect his universe and it seems like he only fights against tough opponents. I don't think he wants to prove to anyone "hey, look I'm the strongest here"
He also wants to make a wish... Well, he is definitely strong and Goku has to beat him one way or another.
Currently watching: My Hero Academia
Last watched: Akame Ga Kill, Hokuto No Ken, Hokuto No Ken 2, Hunter X Hunter
Quote if I were to Hakai someone: "Omae Wa Mou Shindeiru. Hakai!"
Last watched: Akame Ga Kill, Hokuto No Ken, Hokuto No Ken 2, Hunter X Hunter
Quote if I were to Hakai someone: "Omae Wa Mou Shindeiru. Hakai!"
Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
You're looking into it too much. They show him meditating like that because it looks cool and conveys that he's powerful.
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Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
Considering DB has become much more heavily inclined with martial arts and its concepts since Battle of Gods and AT started writing again since like before the Saiyan arc, this is not honestly a reach. People want to say Super doesn't have subtle storytelling (which it does), but then somebody may notice something and people just want to write it off. Approach it with an open mind and see if maybe you missed something.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).
Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
Such as...?Nero<>Akira wrote:Considering DB has become much more heavily inclined with martial arts and its concepts since Battle of Gods and AT started writing again
Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
He also said that he was wrong after Goku vanished from the Sprit BombGodKaio-Ken wrote:It was specifically mentioned that by crushing Goku the other universes would lose hope.BrolyKale wrote:Jiren is just there to protect his universe and it seems like he only fights against tough opponents. I don't think he wants to prove to anyone "hey, look I'm the strongest here"
He also wants to make a wish... Well, he is definitely strong and Goku has to beat him one way or another.
How i predict the tournament will end:
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Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
There is a lot of stuff in Dragon Ball that may look cool but has a more subtle and deeper martial arts based undertone to it that a lot of people won't know about.Asura wrote:You're looking into it too much. They show him meditating like that because it looks cool and conveys that he's powerful.
Just check this thread out from Kunzait_83.
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Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
Mastery of Self Movement is probably the biggest one and a big plot point of the series. We've seen characters reach higher levels of strength & control through different forms of meditation, image training, and high levels of concentration like Gohan, Freeza, & Jiren (to some extent and also being open minded to what the OP describes) instead of simple physical training. It's even had an effect on their development as a person i.e Freeza. The only times they were shown before was either through filler or a single shot in the manga possibly and nothing ever came of it or it was used to make it look cool. We've seen the point Whis has brought up to Goku & Vegeta on how letting down your guard has an effect on even the strongest of fighters (even if people don't like Goku getting blasted by a laser) and that they need to work on a balance between being too tense and too relaxed so they can maximize results. This also connects with the self movement technique. You also have to take into account DB's own added things like having mastered ki so well you can attain God Ki which is on a whole different plane above mortal means. It shows Goku and Vegeta being martial artists at leagues of their own while still needing to learn. DB has always been about there always being another level of strength and that there are many strong people out there besides you, but it's never really leaned towards some people just being that much better than you and possibly someone you could never reach the way Battle of Gods and everything that follows except instances like Vegeta accepting Goku is better in the last DB arc or just cause a villain that was gonna destroy a planet was too strong or cause AT just stopped writing most of the original cast in a way to keep up with the Saiyans. It was never really more so from a martial arts perspective. This is me though.Asura wrote:Such as...?Nero<>Akira wrote:Considering DB has become much more heavily inclined with martial arts and its concepts since Battle of Gods and AT started writing again
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).
Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
Great topic!!! I have practiced a fare share of meditation and would like to add one point of emphasis to you post. The body is always remembered or anticipated and is never experienced just now(Not completely). When one experiences now even for an instant the awareness expands and the body vanishes from it(awareness). That is when the door opens to a whole new set of possibilities. This is my experience and can't say much more on it than that. From the db perspective I see ultra instinct as that level of awareness in action. There are many more things I see in super that reflect my(for lack of a better term) studies. Z did it too but not to the level of super which is why I'm enjoying super so much.Hawk9211 wrote:I was kinda worried that jiren will turn out to be a broly character(beats characters only based on strength),but I was proven wrong.
He successfully blocked hit,adapted to timeskip and countered hit's clone with out any knowledge.
And also this:
https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/ji ... nt.1115066/
It may be to much text but i recommend to read it all ,its really interesting and it gives Jiren some character
Many of us think that Jiren is simply meditating,as we know meditating is in some way is training your mind or rather reaching a focus level beyond the normal
But thats not the case Jiren isn't simply meditating he is doing something called "The Zazen"
Whats the Zazen you may ask.
Zazen is a meditative discipline that is typically the primary practice. The precise meaning and method of zazen varies from school to school, but in general it can be regarded as a means of insight into the nature of existence.
While the mind may wander off into thoughts of the past, interpretations of the present, and speculations concerning the future, the body is always right here and right now.
Jiren mind is thinking about the past the present and the future at the same time .He is thinking about posibbilitys that could accour
Very generally speaking, zazen practice is taught in one of three ways.
Concentration
Introspection
(just sitting)
Lets have a look at the third one
Shikantaza
Shikantaza is a form of meditation, in which the practitioner does not use any specific object of meditation(Jiren doesn't use anything);rather, practitioners remain as much as possible in the present moment, aware of and observing what passes through their minds and around them(Do you really think anyone can attack Jiren without Jiren being aware of it). says, in his , "Sitting fixedly, think of not thinking. How do you think of not thinking? Nonthinking. This is the art of Zazen."
Posture:
The main posture of the Zazen also known as
Kekkafuza (full-lotus)
looks like this
Now look at Jiren pose
Tell me what you think of this ?
Re: Jiren is not simple brute.
Okay but how does this differ from Z? It's the same "Person X is powerful because they say they are" trope that Z falls into. It doesn't have anything to do with martial arts or concepts or skills. The idea of self movement and the body being able to react on its own is finalized in the form of Ultra Instinct. But it's a form, it's a transformation. Goku didn't actually learn this technique by practicing it or getting good at it, he got it because his transformation made him more powerful and able to do it. This goes back to the same thing in Z where people transform and become more powerful, there's not any kind of martial arts skill or practice like we saw in the original Dragon Ball. And the concept of not letting your guard down isn't exactly some kind of interesting martial arts concept that we've never seen in the series before. Not to mention meditation or image training is nowhere near anything new for this series, we've seen it back in the original Dragon Ball.Nero<>Akira wrote:Mastery of Self Movement is probably the biggest one and a big plot point of the series. We've seen characters reach higher levels of strength & control through different forms of meditation, image training, and high levels of concentration like Gohan, Freeza, & Jiren (to some extent and also being open minded to what the OP describes) instead of simple physical training. It's even had an effect on their development as a person i.e Freeza. The only times they were shown before was either through filler or a single shot in the manga possibly and nothing ever came of it or it was used to make it look cool. We've seen the point Whis has brought up to Goku & Vegeta on how letting down your guard has an effect on even the strongest of fighters (even if people don't like Goku getting blasted by a laser) and that they need to work on a balance between being too tense and too relaxed so they can maximize results. This also connects with the self movement technique. You also have to take into account DB's own added things like having mastered ki so well you can attain God Ki which is on a whole different plane above mortal means. It shows Goku and Vegeta being martial artists at leagues of their own while still needing to learn. DB has always been about there always being another level of strength and that there are many strong people out there besides you, but it's never really leaned towards some people just being that much better than you and possibly someone you could never reach the way Battle of Gods and everything that follows except instances like Vegeta accepting Goku is better in the last DB arc or just cause a villain that was gonna destroy a planet was too strong or cause AT just stopped writing most of the original cast in a way to keep up with the Saiyans. It was never really more so from a martial arts perspective. This is me though.Asura wrote:Such as...?Nero<>Akira wrote:Considering DB has become much more heavily inclined with martial arts and its concepts since Battle of Gods and AT started writing again
Nothing has changed from Z to Super in terms of the series becoming more inclined with martial arts or its concepts. It's still using the exact same formula as Z. Person shows up, they're more powerful because they say they are/they transform, and then Goku defeats them (or tries to defeat them) using the same techniques he's always used, or he transforms himself. Ultra Instinct is the closest it comes, and even then it just follows the same formula as Z where it's "Person transforms, now they're more powerful and can't be hit because of how powerful they are."