Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:25 pm

It seems to me that compared to DBZ, Super does. For example we have Roshi's experience and Krillin's tactics being such key components in the ToP, Goku's new form hinted/implied to be more of a fighting skill increase than a power up, etc.

In DBZ, if you had one guy with a power level of 100 who was the most skilled and experienced martial artist ever vs. a guy with a power level of 1000 who was just a brute with no skill, the second guy would obviously win, but in Super it seems like it's the other way around. Am I the only one who has noticed that?
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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by Zagacious » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:00 pm

It's only that way in certain instances, like when trying to show off Roshi, power still wins out a majority of the time. I don't consider Kaioken really a skill either, it's pretty much another powerup which its effectiveness/usability depends entirely on randomness/plot decision.

As awesome as those Roshi episodes were, imagine if he tried to do that to someone like Dyspo or Hit, it would have probably done nothing at all. Ultimately power matters more. I would like skill to matter more than it does, and they've made a few steps toward that direction but they always go back into the power mattering more than skill in the end.

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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:24 pm

I have applaud this Approach by Super cause it is an ideal that is commonly used in Movies, Comics, shows and at times real life.

You can have a Very Strong, Tough Foe with lots of power and speed, but if they rely to much on that power it goes to their heads thinking only power is needed to win. That they are so tough, can wield such energy and such strength nothing else matters, but if they are under-skilled it can make them sloppy. But when you have a Warrior that knows how to Work the Battle, can read a battle, has much skill in how to fight and can read fighter, no matter how stronger that fighter is, they will lose a good deal of the blows cause the more skilled fighter knows how to play the match.

Again allot of fights still might favor the strong over the skilled after awhile, but the skilled fighert more then likely will know this and try to end the fight using as little stamina as needed, as fast as they can end it and by making concentrated blows that focus on ending the fighter quickly.

Example in Point, Black Panther vs. Black Dwarf from Marvel Comics! 8)


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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by Jigurashi » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:49 pm

Depends on the fight. A character like Hitto that is more hax and technique based offers more skill-based, technical and strategic fights than your standard DB fight. Goku, Dyspo, and Jiren all got to show off how skilled they are/tactics during their fights with Hitto. Hitto himself is a very intelligent and skilled fighter. It really depends on the fighters participating in the fight I feel. It feels like tactics and skill are a bit more prominent than most fights of the latter half of Z.

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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:02 am

In smoe specific cases, skill does indeed play a great factor in the progression of a battle compared to power in Super. We see that in cases such as Goku vs Botamo, Piccolo vs Frost, Goku vs Hit (in both fights), Gohan vs Obuni, how Roshi took on his opponents in Episode 105, and the entire battle with Dyspo and Hit was based around strategy, outsmarting the other opponent, and exploiting their weaknesses. Of course, for a story like Dragon Ball, strength does rule over everything else, but Super has had several more instances of skill carrying a lot more weight in a battle than power compared to DBZ and DB.

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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by ssbgoku » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:06 am

Maybe a little but Super is suffering from not making up fully it's mind/direction in which it wants go. I mean They are switching and jumping between skills matters more and power matter more. While it let series stay in safe area and make both fans of pure power and skills happy, it proves that it is too afraid to go for either while z was just pure power unless you are close to each other then skills matter.

Jiren is prime example of pure power bullshit although I thought and was happy that they stopped with going this route. I mean why ? All is only for merchandise as goku shouldn't need new transformation, also kaioken should be last resort technique, and goku should be only allowed to use x2 against Hit relying more on skills then power. Jiren should have rather unique combat style or hax then just pure power. Why would it be better ? Because slowly(ver slowly), old z cast would closing gap between sayians and them, instead while they are aiming for it, they keep goku and threats growing in power which make it not that good.

Bringing Saiyan god transformation(yes this is how it should be called) at the begining of dbs was only catch thing for fans, but I am sure it would be better if they wouldn't get so strong so fast and first fought as potara fusion againt beerus then latter goku was taught how to become ssg , then vegeta and then it would make much more sense...

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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by namekiansaiyan » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:23 am

ssbgoku wrote:Maybe a little but Super is suffering from not making up fully it's mind/direction in which it wants go. I mean They are switching and jumping between skills matters more and power matter more. While it let series stay in safe area and make both fans of pure power and skills happy, it proves that it is too afraid to go for either while z was just pure power unless you are close to each other then skills matter.

Jiren is prime example of pure power bullshit although I thought and was happy that they stopped with going this route. I mean why ? All is only for merchandise as goku shouldn't need new transformation, also kaioken should be last resort technique, and goku should be only allowed to use x2 against Hit relying more on skills then power. Jiren should have rather unique combat style or hax then just pure power. Why would it be better ? Because slowly(ver slowly), old z cast would closing gap between sayians and them, instead while they are aiming for it, they keep goku and threats growing in power which make it not that good.

Bringing Saiyan god transformation(yes this is how it should be called) at the begining of dbs was only catch thing for fans, but I am sure it would be better if they wouldn't get so strong so fast and first fought as potara fusion againt beerus then latter goku was taught how to become ssg , then vegeta and then it would make much more sense...
You can also tell that Jiren is very samrt and skillful though an example of this is when he didn't let his guard after he blew Goku away and Hit tried to get in a sneak attack against him.

Get rid of the Saiyans except Goku and we will have a much more skill based tournament.

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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by TheMikado » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:57 am

Yes and no. I think that Super is more a product of its production and Toriyama changed directions mid-stream.

So let's start with what Super is.

Toei approach Toriyama years ago with a pre-created script. In this script Toei had already decided they wanted to take Goku to the "Super Saiyan God" level and fight a "God" of destruction.
Before Toriyama was even involved the idea of going to "God" levels of power was already established. Yes Toriyama re-wrote the script, but the original concept of "God" level powers remained. Further heightening the already rampant power escalation. In the Buu saga we a pull back from pure power, particularly when Buu was outclassed multiple times in raw power yet was still unable to be beaten. In fact, virtually every character which fought him would have won against him if not for his special regeneration abilities, and in the end the battle was not even against the most powerful Buu. It seemed like a pretty clear indication that in this arc Toriyama was emphasizing that increasing power levels is not always going to be the solution.

Back to the Battle of the Gods Movie, this is why taking power level up to the point of "punching the universe out of existence" would not lend itself to a long term serial format. When you are at that level of power where else can you go? It is also interesting that the original power level scale was 6-10-15. Indicating Toriyama did not envision Goku getting more than 20x stronger and still not being able to surpass Beerus/Whis.

Moving forward to the RoF Movies we see three very distinct themes appear. The idea of "training your base", "moving without thinking", and "Not letting your guard down". In this movie we see the first theme take effect. A resurrected Frieza trains for 4 months to reach new levels of power. Fights the Z fighters and Goku, can win against the even more powerful SSB, but has a weakness.

Frieza has not mastered the form. His stamina is draining. Basically Frieza did not train for mastery but rather achievement of power and loses as a result of it. Of course Goku had the whole letting his guard down issue as well.

Now we get to Super proper. Super is a serialized format of the movies and retells them. From there it expands to the Champa arc.
This is where Toriyama throws the curve ball. I think Toriyama was emphasizing the saiyans hitting a wall with their power after 3 years in the RoSaT. It is my personal belief that Toriyama's thematic approach to Super from this point forward was to emphasis that technique, mastery, and training can trump raw power escalation, in fact I believe Toriyama took some inspiration from One Piece and it shows. Goku faces Botamo who could not be hurt at all with attacks and raw power. However he was able to ring him out easily. We have Frost who when overpowered uses poison techniques. Further we have Piccolo who uses a combination of strategic attacks and defense to put up an admirable showing against an opponent who out classes him. Magetta who is so heavy even Vegeta has trouble lifting him. His body is almost impenetrable and emits fumes. Cabba has nothing special about him and reinforces that raw power is still a thing in the universe. Then we have Hit, who's time skip is what gives him the edge. Consequently this is also where the manga and anime differ. In both versions SSJ was brought back and Goku uses a stepping stone approach to uses his forms against Hit. However the anime brings back Kaioken to make Goku stronger where as the manga uses SSG to prevent further power escalation beyond SSB. Basically the anime approach is to get stronger to overcome something. This is further emphasized in fights between Beerus and Goku, and later we see it in the Copy-Vegeta arc where they use a standard trope of having a powerful character (SSJ3 Gotenk) be completely ineffective in order to showcase a much stronger characters power. Again we see the power escalation.

Moving to the Future Trunks arc we see some interesting things going on. Black is strong, stronger than Future Trunks however Goku and Trunks spar and Goku easily edges him out.
In the manga the same scene occurs however Trunks is almost on par with SSJ3 Goku and Goku must use SSG to edge Trunks out. Showing that Trunks has taken mastery of existing forms rather than further escalation.
More importantly we see the Zamasu/Black approaches differently in the manga and anime. In both Vegeta "jobs" goes to the RoSaT and comes back to fight Black. The difference is approach. Where in the anime he comes back and he's just stronger?? Where as in the manga Vegeta masters the transformation between SSG and SSB and uses it in a way to defeat Black. Also in both versions Zamasu is immortal and power alone cannot defeat him so Goku resorts to attempting to seal him. One thing that was noticed is that where Goku goes kaioken and gets stronger in the anime, Manga Goku uses a Mastered form of SSB instead. Again. One approach is to escalate power and another is to emphasize mastery. Ultimately Zamasu merges, Vegetto comes out, kicks his butt but cannot finish the job. Merged Zamasu becomes an unstoppable force and Zeno is called.

Speaking of Zeno, he doesn't seem to be particularly strong. Just has the ability to manipulate reality ala Dr. Strange.

Anyway my point is I do not think the intention of Toriyama is that power should be increasing at the rate it does. I think he was trying to emphasize skill but it is being interpreted into being about power when I believe the opposite is true. The events of how the tournament play out in the manga vs the anime will give us a better sense of the common plot points.

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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by GodKaio-Ken » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:34 am

Skill is something that can bridge the gap in power if its close enough. If the gap is too big the bridge wont extend all the way across.
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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by ssbgoku » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:31 am

GodKaio-Ken wrote:Skill is something that can bridge the gap in power if its close enough. If the gap is too big the bridge wont extend all the way across.
the problem in dbs as they can not make up their mind. See Roshi vs Frost and gap between then(even if Frost holding back heavily)

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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by TekTheNinja » Sat Oct 28, 2017 5:40 am

It doesn't know what it wants to emphasize. There are moments that emphasize skill, such as Roshi's fights, and they hyped up skill over power A LOT, but overall, power seems to be annoyingly winning out. Hit vs Jiren and Goku vs that one pride trooper with the hamon overdrive looking attack come to mind.

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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:49 am

TekTheNinja wrote:It doesn't know what it wants to emphasize. There are moments that emphasize skill, such as Roshi's fights, and they hyped up skill over power A LOT, but overall, power seems to be annoyingly winning out. Hit vs Jiren and Goku vs that one pride trooper with the hamon overdrive looking attack come to mind.
It's implied that Jiren is very skilled too, in fact wasn't there a line saying that he's more than just a brute or something like that?
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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:20 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:It doesn't know what it wants to emphasize. There are moments that emphasize skill, such as Roshi's fights, and they hyped up skill over power A LOT, but overall, power seems to be annoyingly winning out. Hit vs Jiren and Goku vs that one pride trooper with the hamon overdrive looking attack come to mind.
It's implied that Jiren is very skilled too, in fact wasn't there a line saying that he's more than just a brute or something like that?
That's a thread title, not a line in the show

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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:49 pm

So far I've only seen the Universal Tournament arc put emphasis on skill.

The previous arcs had new transformations and Vegetto's return to up things.
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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:16 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:It doesn't know what it wants to emphasize. There are moments that emphasize skill, such as Roshi's fights, and they hyped up skill over power A LOT, but overall, power seems to be annoyingly winning out. Hit vs Jiren and Goku vs that one pride trooper with the hamon overdrive looking attack come to mind.
It's implied that Jiren is very skilled too, in fact wasn't there a line saying that he's more than just a brute or something like that?
That's a thread title, not a line in the show
Memory fail on my part then, lol.
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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by Jigurashi » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:34 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:
ssbgoku wrote:Maybe a little but Super is suffering from not making up fully it's mind/direction in which it wants go. I mean They are switching and jumping between skills matters more and power matter more. While it let series stay in safe area and make both fans of pure power and skills happy, it proves that it is too afraid to go for either while z was just pure power unless you are close to each other then skills matter.

Jiren is prime example of pure power bullshit although I thought and was happy that they stopped with going this route. I mean why ? All is only for merchandise as goku shouldn't need new transformation, also kaioken should be last resort technique, and goku should be only allowed to use x2 against Hit relying more on skills then power. Jiren should have rather unique combat style or hax then just pure power. Why would it be better ? Because slowly(ver slowly), old z cast would closing gap between sayians and them, instead while they are aiming for it, they keep goku and threats growing in power which make it not that good.

Bringing Saiyan god transformation(yes this is how it should be called) at the begining of dbs was only catch thing for fans, but I am sure it would be better if they wouldn't get so strong so fast and first fought as potara fusion againt beerus then latter goku was taught how to become ssg , then vegeta and then it would make much more sense...
You can also tell that Jiren is very samrt and skillful though an example of this is when he didn't let his guard after he blew Goku away and Hit tried to get in a sneak attack against him.

Get rid of the Saiyans except Goku and we will have a much more skill based tournament.
You're not completely wrong or right. Outside of Goku, many of the other Saiyans rarely get portrayed as being extremely skilled fighters. Jiren showed his intelligence when he perfectly read, adapted, and countered Hitto's Tokitobashi + Dimension Crossing abilities in seconds, even faster than Goku did. Jiren is a big example of just the overarching power overcoming everything, but the first half of his fight with Hitto pretty clearly showed his fighting prowess. Then you have things like Toppo figuring out Hitto's Tokitobashi and Dimension Crossing just through observation alone.

The answer to this question is yes and no. There are clearly fights you can list where you can perfectly see how skilled some of the fighters are (Goku VS Hitto, Goku VS Hitto II, Hitto VS Dyspo, Gohan VS Piccolo, Goku VS Kuririn episode 84, Gohan VS Kuririn, Kuririn VS Majora, Gohan VS Lavender, Goku VS Rozie, Hitto VS Jiren, Roshi VS Universe 4, Goku VS Majin Boo episode 85, Goku VS Gohan). Despite these fights, there's just as many that really are for the most part focused on power rather than any skill or technique or tactics.
Polyphase Avatron wrote:
TekTheNinja wrote:It doesn't know what it wants to emphasize. There are moments that emphasize skill, such as Roshi's fights, and they hyped up skill over power A LOT, but overall, power seems to be annoyingly winning out. Hit vs Jiren and Goku vs that one pride trooper with the hamon overdrive looking attack come to mind.
It's implied that Jiren is very skilled too, in fact wasn't there a line saying that he's more than just a brute or something like that?
It wasn't implied, it was straight up shown he was a skilled fighter when you watch just the first half of his fight with Hitto. Hitto himself stated he adapted to his Tokitobashi in seconds. Jiren did that faster than Goku did. Unlike with Goku where Jiren was dodging and tanking hits, he was countering all of Hitto's attacks, and was perfectly reading his movements. I don't know where this "Jiren is just a simple brute" thing started, but is it because he has barely any unique moves at all so far? Is it from the fact he was just overpowering Goku and Hitto and no selling whatever they did? If so, like I said, the first half of his fight with Hitto is all you need to observe to see that he's a skilled fighter.

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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by Miracles » Sat Oct 28, 2017 3:05 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:In DBZ, if you had one guy with a power level of 100 who was the most skilled and experienced martial artist ever vs. a guy with a power level of 1000 who was just a brute with no skill, the second guy would obviously win, but in Super it seems like it's the other way around. Am I the only one who has noticed that?
It's always been the same since Dragonball."Skill" is based off techniques [Zanzoken, Tiens arms, Yamcha's Wolf strike, Piccolo's cloning, etc]. The "strategies" were always there too but they were very simple. Goku trying to grab Radditz, distracting him while Piccolo power's up a technique. Vegeta pretending to be energy drained by Android 20. Pretty much the same thing going on in Super, Roshi using his "experience," combined with his classic fighting techs, Hit using his techniques to hide and poke, Dyspo using his speed to prevent one from using their abilities. Dragonball has always done these things I don't think they are trying to emphasize it but it's just there. Battle power will still be emphasized and reign as king.

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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by Jigurashi » Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:53 pm

Miracles wrote:
Polyphase Avatron wrote:In DBZ, if you had one guy with a power level of 100 who was the most skilled and experienced martial artist ever vs. a guy with a power level of 1000 who was just a brute with no skill, the second guy would obviously win, but in Super it seems like it's the other way around. Am I the only one who has noticed that?
It's always been the same since Dragonball."Skill" is based off techniques [Zanzoken, Tiens arms, Yamcha's Wolf strike, Piccolo's cloning, etc]. The "strategies" were always there too but they were very simple. Goku trying to grab Radditz, distracting him while Piccolo power's up a technique. Vegeta pretending to be energy drained by Android 20. Pretty much the same thing going on in Super, Roshi using his "experience," combined with his classic fighting techs, Hit using his techniques to hide and poke, Dyspo using his speed to prevent one from using their abilities. Dragonball has always done these things I don't think they are trying to emphasize it but it's just there. Battle power will still be emphasized and reign as king.
For better or worse, a fairly unique trait for DB.

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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by Meshack » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:19 pm

DragonBallFoodie wrote:So far I've only seen the Universal Tournament arc put emphasis on skill.

The previous arcs had new transformations and Vegetto's return to up things.
Did you forget Botamo, Magetta, and Hit? I could’ve sworn those matches had to deal with skill more than strength.

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Re: Does Super put more emphasis on skill rather than power?

Post by Lionel » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:47 pm

Relativistic notions of skill might be seen in the show, but so much of it is besmirched by short-sightedness and impracticality that the cleverness is lost on me. I'm not going to say that the conventional ideas of skill when referring to martial arts applies to characters in the show. It's just a watered down streamline conception of what the casual viewer would associate with martial arts.

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