Dragon Ball Super's writing - a thought experiment

[Saturnine]

Krillin was already stronger than Raditz in the Saiyan Saga; and his fight with Blue can't be contextualized the way you're describing it.

Good point. Still though, in the original Krillin was nothing compared to Vegeta fight Goku yet now he can hold off his Blue attack ?

The hell? Krillin was said in the Daiz to already be at like 75000 on Namek. That's several times more than Vegeta on Earth. He only got stronger since then training for the androids, and that's where he peaked in the original manga. Are you acting like people don't get any stronger through training and only transformations make ppl stronger? I honestly have no idea.

Zenkai's to surpass Zarbon, who's like 25,000, but then somehow got stronger than Ginyu and fucking Freeza, who stated he was 530,000, after his THIRD Zenkai. And then he got another one, which raised him well over a million.

Over two, to be precise

[sintzu]

Krillin was said in the Daiz to already be at like 75000 on Namek. That's several times more than Vegeta on Earth. He only got stronger since then training for the androids, and that's where he peaked in the original manga.

Are you acting like people don't get any stronger through training and only transformations make ppl stronger? I honestly have no idea.

There's nothing in the manga that supports this claim. Yes he most likely got stronger through training for the androids but he was still no match for Saiyan arc Vegeta.

In the manga humans could only get so strong before raching their limits but I guess there's no sense in usng the original's logic with Super as it doesn't have any. It's the same show that had Krillin who saw a fight between SsjB Goku and Golden Freeza be amazed at a fight between Ssj2s.

[Saturnine]

Bro it's been heavily implied that Krillin's power has been slowly awakening after Guru's unlock and went way, way past Vegeta's 18,000. It isn't evem really a point of debate among the community. Though to be fair, that 75k figure was from the v-jump, not from the daiz, so my bad there.

[Lord Beerus]

I like how "good writing" boils down to power scaling. Nothing else matters. It's ALL about power scaling. Screw the overall narrative. Screw the world building. Screw the character motivations and development. If these characters don't gain their power the way I want them to, then it's shit writing. Fuck everything else. Nevermind the fact that DB has never been consistent on how characters gained their power.

You want to talk power scaling? Explain how the humans got stronger than Raditz by training with God for less than a year, but Goku, who trained there for THREE YEARS was basically half of Raditz. And that doesn't included the 5 year skip where Muten Roshi himself stated that Goku hasn't been slacking all this time. Please enlighten me on how wonderful and great this power scaling is. And for the record, the Saiyan arc is my third favorite arc in the series.

Also can explain to me the wonderful concept of "Zenkai Boosts" and how they work? Why did Goku go from 90,000, which is over THIRTY times stronger than his starting level in Z, to fucking THREE MILLION. Or how Vegeta needed like two Zenkai's to surpass Zarbon, who's like 25,000, but then somehow got stronger than Ginyu and fucking Freeza, who stated he was 530,000, after his THIRD Zenkai. And then he got another one, which raised him well over a million.

And before I get bashed, no, I don't even particularly think these points are faults. I really do not give a shit about how broken the scaling was in Z or is in Super. It does not matter to me that much. I'm just using the same nitpicking that people do with Super and it's "bad writing" and applying it to Z. Look, I think Z is better. OG DB is better than both. I personally don't see Super ever matching or surpassing the originals. But the amount of absurd claims I've seen against it has been astonishing.

If you want to criticize the writing in Super, talk about how piss poor the pacing of the tournament has been, or how some of the Universes have not gotten any development other than being stereotypes of a specific genre. Those are legitimate criticisms of writing. Power scaling can also be criticized, yes, but it isn't and will never be the be-all and end-all of writing. There is so much more that people seem to ACTIVELY ignore. I peek into a forum discussion about a certain topic, and I never fail to see how bad the writing is for Super, and then that post proceeds to ONLY talk about power scaling.

Do I think Super is better written than DB or Z? Hell no. Do I think it's complete garbage? No. It's a middle of the road series with good moments and sometimes some bad moments. Most of the things I criticize about Super have to do with the awkward story telling, pacing, and the uninteresting/butchered characters. Vegeta, for example, has been completely "ruined" in the Universe Survival arc, specifically after the Bra episode. He's had ONE good moment since, which is in the Cabba episode. He's reverted into his Cell arc self, except this time he cares for his family. That's the only difference. That's a legitimate writing criticism to me, and does far more damage to the show than inconsistent or "bad" power scaling will ever do.

That is my assessment on the whole mentality that power scaling is somehow the most important thing of all time, when in fact the previous shows have had shaky scaling as well. At least according to the standards these people seem to follow. There's a lot more you can focus on than just power and muscles, you know.

Take a fucking bow. Phenomenal post, Majin Man.

Although I disagree with the idea that Vegeta has reverted to his Cell arc incarnation.

[MajinMan]

Although I disagree with the idea that Vegeta has reverted to his Cell arc incarnation.

Well not exactly like his Cell arc self, but pretty much 90% of his lines have either been him grunting or claiming that he's number one. He had some good moments with Roshi now that I think about it more, but he has not been interesting at all. Other than the Cabba and Roshi stuff, all he's done is boast, boast, and boast some more. He's become a literal shell of himself. And this is after how well they wrote him in the Future Trunks arc, and to an extent, the beginning of this arc. He also blew up the Room of Spirit and Time again, which makes him look like a complete asshole and jackass.

[Puaru]

I feel the same way as the OP.

One aspect that made Dragon Ball differ from a lot of other fantasy action franchises was the fact that, even though it wasnt always perfect, there seemed to have been an ambition to keep the characters powers (relative to each other) consistent, meaning that a character didnt suddenly just increase or decrease in power dramatically without an explanation.

DBS meanwhile has ignored this aspect in favor of whatever fits the story to an extent that I feel like I'm almost starting to forgett how important power-scaling used to be in this franchise. Nowadays, I've started thinking of this franchise as more similar to something like Marvel or CD where there is extremely little consistency in power-scaling to the point that in one issue Iron Man can take on Thor and in the next Thor blows Iron Man away like a leaf.

This is sad, because while power consistency certainly isnt necassary for this kind of franchise, it did make DB stand out among the norm, and now it is instead like any other series.

[supersaiyanZero]

Although I disagree with the idea that Vegeta has reverted to his Cell arc incarnation.

Well not exactly like his Cell arc self, but pretty much 90% of his lines have either been him grunting or claiming that he's number one. He had some good moments with Roshi now that I think about it more, but he has not been interesting at all. Other than the Cabba and Roshi stuff, all he's done is boast, boast, and boast some more. He's become a literal shell of himself. And this is after how well they wrote him in the Future Trunks arc, and to an extent, the beginning of this arc. He also blew up the Room of Spirit and Time again, which makes him look like a complete asshole and jackass.

There was a moment in the show where he refused to give any energy to Goku for the spirit bomb but in the next cut FRIEZA of all fucking people is gladly giving Goku energy. I mean like, what the fuck? The writers have zero grasp on most of these characters aside from the clips they've seen on Youtube.

[JazzMazz]

Although I disagree with the idea that Vegeta has reverted to his Cell arc incarnation.

Well not exactly like his Cell arc self, but pretty much 90% of his lines have either been him grunting or claiming that he's number one. He had some good moments with Roshi now that I think about it more, but he has not been interesting at all. Other than the Cabba and Roshi stuff, all he's done is boast, boast, and boast some more. He's become a literal shell of himself. And this is after how well they wrote him in the Future Trunks arc, and to an extent, the beginning of this arc. He also blew up the Room of Spirit and Time again, which makes him look like a complete asshole and jackass.

There was a moment in the show where he refused to give any energy to Goku for the spirit bomb but in the next cut FRIEZA of all fucking people is gladly giving Goku energy. I mean like, what the fuck? The writers have zero grasp on most of these characters aside from the clips they've seen on Youtube.

Well thats a disingenuous thing to say.

That guy is one of the script writers on Supers.

Also, for reference, script writers don't have that much control over how episodes turn out, hell they don't even have control of what really happens in the episode., that usually comes down to the director and storyboard artist.

[Lord Beerus]

Although I disagree with the idea that Vegeta has reverted to his Cell arc incarnation.

Well not exactly like his Cell arc self, but pretty much 90% of his lines have either been him grunting or claiming that he's number one. He had some good moments with Roshi now that I think about it more, but he has not been interesting at all. Other than the Cabba and Roshi stuff, all he's done is boast, boast, and boast some more. He's become a literal shell of himself. And this is after how well they wrote him in the Future Trunks arc, and to an extent, the beginning of this arc. He also blew up the Room of Spirit and Time again, which makes him look like a complete asshole and jackass.

To be fair, in Episode 112, we got to see why Vegeta was so determined on being the last man standing and win the Tournament Of Power. He wants to use the Super Dragon Balls to resurrect Universe 6, should they be erased, so he can visit Planet Sadala and meet the King of the Saiyans in that universe that Cabba talked about back in the Champa arc.

[namekiansaiyan]

Although I disagree with the idea that Vegeta has reverted to his Cell arc incarnation.

Well not exactly like his Cell arc self, but pretty much 90% of his lines have either been him grunting or claiming that he's number one. He had some good moments with Roshi now that I think about it more, but he has not been interesting at all. Other than the Cabba and Roshi stuff, all he's done is boast, boast, and boast some more. He's become a literal shell of himself. And this is after how well they wrote him in the Future Trunks arc, and to an extent, the beginning of this arc. He also blew up the Room of Spirit and Time again, which makes him look like a complete asshole and jackass.

To be fair, in Episode 112, we got to see why Vegeta was so determined on being the last man standing and win the Tournament Of Power. He wants to use the Super Dragon Balls to resurrect Universe 6, should they be erased, so he can visit Planet Sadala and meet the King of the Saiyans in that universe that Cabba talked about back in the Champa arc.

If he wanted to go there so much then he should have gone already.

[Lord Beerus]

Well not exactly like his Cell arc self, but pretty much 90% of his lines have either been him grunting or claiming that he's number one. He had some good moments with Roshi now that I think about it more, but he has not been interesting at all. Other than the Cabba and Roshi stuff, all he's done is boast, boast, and boast some more. He's become a literal shell of himself. And this is after how well they wrote him in the Future Trunks arc, and to an extent, the beginning of this arc. He also blew up the Room of Spirit and Time again, which makes him look like a complete asshole and jackass.

To be fair, in Episode 112, we got to see why Vegeta was so determined on being the last man standing and win the Tournament Of Power. He wants to use the Super Dragon Balls to resurrect Universe 6, should they be erased, so he can visit Planet Sadala and meet the King of the Saiyans in that universe that Cabba talked about back in the Champa arc.

If he wanted to go there so much then he should have gone already.

How can Vegeta travel to another universe by himself?

[namekiansaiyan]

To be fair, in Episode 112, we got to see why Vegeta was so determined on being the last man standing and win the Tournament Of Power. He wants to use the Super Dragon Balls to resurrect Universe 6, should they be erased, so he can visit Planet Sadala and meet the King of the Saiyans in that universe that Cabba talked about back in the Champa arc.

If he wanted to go there so much then he should have gone already.

How can Vegeta travel to another universe by himself?

How does this even get there at all? Whis would probably have to take him there so he should have asked him.

[Lord Beerus]

If he wanted to go there so much then he should have gone already.

How can Vegeta travel to another universe by himself?

How does this even get there at all? Whis would probably have to take him there so he should have asked him.

Whis can't travel through universes. The only way to do so in Super has been through that cube shown in the Champa arc.

[supersaiyanZero]

Well not exactly like his Cell arc self, but pretty much 90% of his lines have either been him grunting or claiming that he's number one. He had some good moments with Roshi now that I think about it more, but he has not been interesting at all. Other than the Cabba and Roshi stuff, all he's done is boast, boast, and boast some more. He's become a literal shell of himself. And this is after how well they wrote him in the Future Trunks arc, and to an extent, the beginning of this arc. He also blew up the Room of Spirit and Time again, which makes him look like a complete asshole and jackass.

There was a moment in the show where he refused to give any energy to Goku for the spirit bomb but in the next cut FRIEZA of all fucking people is gladly giving Goku energy. I mean like, what the fuck? The writers have zero grasp on most of these characters aside from the clips they've seen on Youtube.

Well thats a disingenuous thing to say.

That guy is one of the script writers on Supers.

Also, for reference, script writers don't have that much control over how episodes turn out, hell they don't even have control of what really happens in the episode., that usually comes down to the director and storyboard artist.

He can post scans of the manga all he wants, I still don't know whether he's actually reading the source material or just skimming for ideas. Your post highlights one of the main problems with Super or any criticism it receives: the shuffling of the blame as to why it barely reaches mediocrity.

You can't blame the writers, because it's the director who comes up with the material!!
You can't blame the director, because he gets his notes from Toriyama!
You can't blame Toriyama, because all he does is give them the outline!!
You can't blame the animators, because they don't have the budget or time!
You can't blame Shueisha, because their hands are tied by Toriyama!

It got to the point where Toei's animators blamed the fucking fanbase, for their disappointment with Super's quality.

And on and on and on. Somehow it's nobody's fault that we've seen this franchise decline in terms of quality and everybody is just wearing rose tinted nostalgia glasses. We've had brief glimpses of what this should COULD have been in a handful of episodes, so I guess there's that?

[JazzMazz]

There was a moment in the show where he refused to give any energy to Goku for the spirit bomb but in the next cut FRIEZA of all fucking people is gladly giving Goku energy. I mean like, what the fuck? The writers have zero grasp on most of these characters aside from the clips they've seen on Youtube.

Well thats a disingenuous thing to say.

That guy is one of the script writers on Supers.

Also, for reference, script writers don't have that much control over how episodes turn out, hell they don't even have control of what really happens in the episode., that usually comes down to the director and storyboard artist.

He can post scans of the manga all he wants, I still don't know whether he's actually reading the source material or just skimming for ideas. Your post highlights one of the main problems with Super or any criticism it receives: the shuffling of the blame as to why it barely reaches mediocrity.

You can't blame the writers, because it's the director who comes up with the material!!
You can't blame the director, because he gets his notes from Toriyama!
You can't blame Toriyama, because all he does is give them the outline!!
You can't blame the animators, because they don't have the budget or time!
You can't blame Shueisha, because their hands are tied by Toriyama!

It got to the point where Toei's animators blamed the fucking fanbase, for their disappointment with Super's quality.

And on and on and on. Somehow it's nobody's fault that we've seen this franchise decline in terms of quality and everybody is just wearing rose tinted nostalgia glasses. We've had brief glimpses of what this should COULD have been in a handful of episodes, so I guess there's that?

You can still blame the creative staff and directors you know. Its just important to correctly attribute who you believe didn't do well. I blame episode directors all the time when I feel they did a poor job at making the episode engaging or were just flat out egregious all the time. There is nothing wrong with blaming them if they've done a genuinely poor job, its just a matter of properly expressing which role in the production stuffed up.

When talking about say the animators, we say they didn't have the time to execute there work because we know what those animators are truly capable of and have seen them produce fantastic work before. Also, I don't think anyone really blame animators for running out of budget, Super has a lot of investments placed into its success and also into the production of the show, the main problem for Super's animators is tough schedule, which is has been commented on by several animators.

I remember something about a Toei animator blaming the fanbase, but I don't remember the exact details. Could you provide a link?

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Its anime

power scaling isn't a legitimate mathematical equation

If the episode is great, fun, entertaining etc, then what does it matter if the power scaling was inconsistent?

I will never understand the thought process that somehow "inconsistent power scaling=bad episode or bad show"

Dragon Ball and Z were never loved because they had super crazy analytical mathematical power scaling

But somehow that "criticism" is used to always thrash Super. I dont get it

Dragan Ball and Z had many cases of bad power scaling

Yet Super gets nit picked to death and shitted on for it

I dont get why Super has this toxic cloud of cynicism and negativity always following over it.

Other animes dont get nit picked half to death as bad as Super. Fans of those other animes can actually enjoy what they watch and see the good in it.

Yet some people just refuse to ever see the positives in Super. Some people treat Super as if its a legit "garbage" show and thats just....its crazy to me....Theres no other word for it

[Jack Bz]

How can Vegeta travel to another universe by himself?

How does this even get there at all? Whis would probably have to take him there so he should have asked him.

Whis can't travel through universes. The only way to do so in Super has been through that cube shown in the Champa arc.

I think Kaioshin can travel anywhere. He brought Goku to Zeno's which certainly isn't in U7.

[RedHeat]

Its anime

power scaling isn't a legitimate mathematical equation

If the episode is great, fun, entertaining etc, then what does it matter if the power scaling was inconsistent?

I will never understand the thought process that somehow "inconsistent power scaling=bad episode or bad show"

Dragon Ball and Z were never loved because they had super crazy analytical mathematical power scaling

But somehow that "criticism" is used to always thrash Super. I dont get it

Dragan Ball and Z had many cases of bad power scaling

Yet Super gets nit picked to death and shitted on for it

I dont get why Super has this toxic cloud of cynicism and negativity always following over it.

Other animes dont get nit picked half to death as bad as Super. Fans of those other animes can actually enjoy what they watch and see the good in it.

Yet some people just refuse to ever see the positives in Super. Some people treat Super as if its a legit "garbage" show and thats just....its crazy to me....Theres no other word for it

I'm in agreement, at least mostly. You can refer to that quote by Doctor about power scaling as a thing that can apply to good naritives, but someone mentioned Marvel/DC Comics in this thread earlier. It's practically non-existant in those franchises and yet they've produced some of the best stories in all of fiction.

[HeroR]

Its anime

power scaling isn't a legitimate mathematical equation

If the episode is great, fun, entertaining etc, then what does it matter if the power scaling was inconsistent?

I will never understand the thought process that somehow "inconsistent power scaling=bad episode or bad show"

Dragon Ball and Z were never loved because they had super crazy analytical mathematical power scaling

But somehow that "criticism" is used to always thrash Super. I dont get it

Dragan Ball and Z had many cases of bad power scaling

Yet Super gets nit picked to death and shitted on for it

I dont get why Super has this toxic cloud of cynicism and negativity always following over it.

Other animes dont get nit picked half to death as bad as Super. Fans of those other animes can actually enjoy what they watch and see the good in it.

Yet some people just refuse to ever see the positives in Super. Some people treat Super as if its a legit "garbage" show and thats just....its crazy to me....Theres no other word for it

I'm in agreement, at least mostly. You can refer to that quote by Doctor about power scaling as a thing that can apply to good naritives, but someone mentioned Marvel/DC Comics in this thread earlier. It's practically non-existant in those franchises and yet they've produced some of the best stories in all of fiction.

Power scaling is important in the sense that it tells us who is stronger than who in a fighting series. But it isn't the most important thing. As you pointed out, Marvel/DC had a lot of depending on the writer when it comes to power scaling characters. That is how we get stuff like Silver Surfer being knocked out by muggles and in the next story, tanking a star exploding on him. While these things are annoying, comic book fans usually tolerate wanking scaling if the story is good. Like most people loved Dark Knight Return despite it having a very nerf version of Superman.

[Shuby]

The amount of apologists still in the fanbase annoys me, no the writing is not good, no its not all about power-scalling. The world building is terrible they introduce new characters with minimal effort of fleshing them out, we got all the universes and still so far into Super nothing has been done with that.

To give you people an example why the writing is atrocious watch this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnU55dfRLMY