I think feminism is the reason for the overpowered female characters

[Li'l Lemmy]

I'm not even going to comment the rest because it' not worth it but this.

This isnt just about the Saiyan girls but about ribrianne as well. Look at the design of ribrianne. Transformation from a skinny model looking into an overwhight middle aged looking woman. The sjw agenda is clear here. Sjw's and feminist despise good looking woman and promote obesity non stop. In the name of "diversety".

Thats why ribrianne is being shoved in out throats over and over. I believe its in the name of feminism.

You really think that Ribrianne is fat because of feminism?! I mean really?! How obvious does it have to be that it's just Toriyama flipping the Magical Girl concept upside down?!

I absolutely loathe Caulifla and I'm no fan of Ribrianne either, but this is just a viewpoint I could not disagree with more. There is no hidden agenda to why the new female characters are prominent/overpowered other than to tell a story that sells toys. It doesn't have anything to do with feminism or PC culture. Particularly the idea that Ribrianne transforms into an overweight variation has nothing to do with anything except Toriyama having fun.

[TheOne]

I also have no problem with females being stronger than males. Lots of anime’s have given females plenty of strong roles like you said, but dragon ball wasn’t really known for that. Now it almost seems like they’re trying to play catch up by introducing them in a sloppy manner. I also had a problem with the power up they gave Trunks. Him and Vegeta are my favorite dragon ball characters. In your defense, they’ve handled both female and male power up sloppily. But by no means am I sexist when I don’t like how they were introduced and I think there was a personal agenda behind it. Even if they were male characters, I’d still be annoyed.

There's absolutely no personal agenda. None. Super IS trying to catch up with other shonen anime, it's long overdue. Kale and Caulifla are here for fanservice. Japan loves fanservice and ecchi anime. They're obsessed with moe and tsundere characters. You want to think of possible agenda? If you have watched Naruto and haven't finished it yet, [spoiler]Kaguya replacing Madara as the final villain of Naruto, and being by far the strongest character in the series[/spoiler] could be an agenda. Even then that's not agenda, just very poor writing and execution. Not this. I too hate how Kale and Caulifla got asspull powerup like Trunks. But this is just bad writing which has plagued Super since U6 arc.

For example, in One Piece (the most popular manga of all time) Luffy will soon be fighting Big Mom, the primary antagonist who's a female and one of the top 10 strongest characters in the entire series. Unlike Kale and Caulfia, Big Mom isn't a fanservice character, she's ugly and fat. Nobody has called out Big Mom for feminism, even though she's fat. Given how Dragon Ball has yet to create a primary female antagonist (18 barely even qualifies as an antagonist), it has a lot of catch up to do. I also feel sorry for the fanbase for being so ignorant on anime in general.

You’re accusing the fan base of being ignorant yet you assumed that I potentially haven’t watched naruto or one piece?

I watch boruto every week and get more excited about watching/reading one piece than I do dragon ball. I'm very much aware of every anime you’ve mentioned, including fairy tale.

Kaguya wasn’t a bad addition. All they did was play on the “mother of all” perspective and it worked fine. I had absolutely no problem with Kaguya, Big Mom or Erza playing such powerful rolls. I explained this to you already. I also never had a problem with 18 kicking the crap out Vegeta and Trunks. All these females you mentioned had been foreshadowed as being exceptional with the exception of Erza. Hers was different if I remember correctly.

Do you know why I (and many others) stopped watching fairy tale? All this ridiculous fan service and power of friendship crap. Too much fan service makes a show suck. There were better ways to introduce Kale and Caulifla than the way they did. All the shows mentioned thus far had much better introductions than these two. Caulifla and kale were fan service characters who got bogus power ups.

[Asura]

My eyes are rolling so much that the room is spinning. I keep seeing dumb claims like this all over, that "feminism" is the reason why Caulifla, Kale, and Ribrianne exist.

It's sad to me that feminism is now a buzzword boogeyman for "anything I don't like involving women". Don't get me wrong, I think the current day version of feminism is an absolute disgrace compared to the feminists that came before it, but it's the fact that it's now used as an excuse for everything is just so sad, because it trivializes what's actually wrong with the movement when you start attributing it to everything just because girls exist in your favorite media or whatever.

Maybe Toriyama just decided that it's been long overdue for female Saiyans and he wanted to bring a lot of focus to them as he introduces them. Ribrianne just has Toriyama's shitty sense of humor written all over it, so I definitely wouldn't chalk that one up to feminism just because she's fat.

Also, I find it funny that you call Caulifla, Kale, and Ribrianne "overpowered female characters" when they're so far below characters like Goku and Vegeta that it's not even funny. If we were going by a tier system, they would probably be in the mid-tier category of ToP fighters.

[Faisal Shourov]

You’re accusing the fan base of being ignorant yet you assumed that I potentially haven’t watched naruto or one piece?

I watch boruto every week and get more excited about watching/reading one piece than I do dragon ball. I'm very much aware of every anime you’ve mentioned, including fairy tale.

Kaguya wasn’t a bad addition. All they did was play on the “mother of all” perspective and it worked fine. I had absolutely no problem with Kaguya, Big Mom or Erza playing such powerful rolls. I explained this to you already. I also never had a problem with 18 kicking the crap out Vegeta and Trunks. All these females you mentioned had been foreshadowed as being exceptional with the exception of Erza. Hers was different if I remember correctly.

Do you know why I (and many others) stopped watching fairy tale? All this ridiculous fan service and power of friendship crap. Too much fan service makes a show suck. There were better ways to introduce Kale and Caulifla than the way they did. All the shows mentioned thus far had much better introductions than these two. Caulifla and kale were fan service characters who got bogus power ups.

I wasn't assuming you haven't watched the shows, I used them for example only. I said the fanbase in general is ignorant. By the way I loathe Fairy Tail, it's absolute dogshit. Even Super seems like a quality show compared to Fairy Tail which can't live without nakama power every fight. I'm just pointing out that Super having Kale and Caulifla has no political agenda. They're here for fanservice which is terrible, but nothing to do with feminism.

Also I disagree that Kaguya was a good addition to Naruto, she's far worse than Kale and Caulifla imo. However I don't want to discuss about Naruto here, way offtopic

[MozillaVulpix]

I think the most ironic thing is if they were trying to 'pander to feminists' (whatever that even means nowadays), I don't even know if they did such a great job. Caulifla is basically fine, but Kale at the start felt like she was only introduced to be a distaff counterpart to Broly so they could put in as many Movie 8 references as possible. It obviously says a lot that her character seemed to start off as "Broly, but make her a girl". She's better now, I feel like, but that doesn't wash away what she seemed to be intended for. And I don't think Ribrianne would be a good example of positive body image, given that basically everyone in U7 seems to think the fact she gets chubby is gross.

[Nickolaus]

how can people deny that kale and kaulifia are both marry sue's? kale was ripping goku in ss blue. now kefla forcing goku to use ultra instinct again. there is no denying. toei wanted a marrry sue badly. both to expend the fan territory and has a feminist agenda. yes feminism exist in japan just as equally as in the west and its known.

ribrianne is not just a parody of magical girls. it will be an understatment to think that her size is not something they thought off. its about the advancment of SJW fat figures which feminism is famous for. hence why she transformed from a good looking girl to an overwhight one

You've thrown around this "Mary Sue" trope several times in this thread. Each time that you've mentioned that whatever character is a "Mary Sue", you're indirectly losing the meaning of this trope. Mike pointed out that there are a lot of people who misunderstand what a Mary Sue is. It started from some Star Trek fanfic in the mid 70s, and since then it's meaning has been interpreted in various ways. Concluding that there isn't an exact definition of what a Mary Sue is.

I'm taking a guess here but I'm like sort of confident you made this thread to bait people. Your terrible grammar and throwing buzz words around is the final nail in the coffin. You're not at all in the position of discussing "agendas" or anything political for that matter. To say that feminism is famous for "social justice warrior fat figure" is a huge insult to what feminism has stood up for. Your view of feminism is just BS you've heard from people spouting on Tumblr. The real work of feminism is happening through educational programs that undermine 'traditional' western gender roles. Get your head out of this terrible image you have and research. Please.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Nononononono! He said "Marry Sue" LOL.

[Torturephile]

My eyes are rolling so much that the room is spinning. I keep seeing dumb claims like this all over, that "feminism" is the reason why Caulifla, Kale, and Ribrianne exist.

It's sad to me that feminism is now a buzzword boogeyman for "anything I don't like involving women". Don't get me wrong, I think the current day version of feminism is an absolute disgrace compared to the feminists that came before it, but it's the fact that it's now used as an excuse for everything is just so sad, because it trivializes what's actually wrong with the movement when you start attributing it to everything just because girls exist in your favorite media or whatever.

You got it. I more or less wanted to add this to my post but forgot.

I wish this thread was never made. This website is the last place I wanted to see politics being discussed.

[JulieYBM]

Japan does have feminists in personalities like Kotani Mari, known for being a science fiction critic. Again, though, it's Toriyama (disconnected from the greater concerns of society), Morishita (a hack producer and company-man obsessed with his old ways of thinking) and Torishima (obsessed with his old ways of thinking and apparently a major asshole to comic authors). I seriously doubt either of them really gave thought to anything like that.

[sintzu]

Overall, in dragon ball there just haven't been many strong female protagonists that contribute to the plot in key ways.

Why does there need to be ? If Toriyama wants to focus on one demographic and one type of character then so be it, it's his choice and the choice he thinks he can write the best story around. Like I said before, if you try to satisfy everyone, you end up satisfying no one.

[Ilikepictures-meh]

I also have no problem with females being stronger than males. Lots of anime’s have given females plenty of strong roles like you said, but dragon ball wasn’t really known for that. Now it almost seems like they’re trying to play catch up by introducing them in a sloppy manner. I also had a problem with the power up they gave Trunks. Him and Vegeta are my favorite dragon ball characters. In your defense, they’ve handled both female and male power up sloppily. But by no means am I sexist when I don’t like how they were introduced and I think there was a personal agenda behind it. Even if they were male characters, I’d still be annoyed.

There's absolutely no personal agenda. None. Super IS trying to catch up with other shonen anime, it's long overdue. Kale and Caulifla are here for fanservice. Japan loves fanservice and ecchi anime. They're obsessed with moe and tsundere characters. You want to think of possible agenda? If you have watched Naruto and haven't finished it yet, [spoiler]Kaguya replacing Madara as the final villain of Naruto, and being by far the strongest character in the series[/spoiler] could be an agenda. Even then that's not agenda, just very poor writing and execution. Not this. I too hate how Kale and Caulifla got asspull powerup like Trunks. But this is just bad writing which has plagued Super since U6 arc.

For example, in One Piece (the most popular manga of all time) Luffy will soon be fighting Big Mom, the primary antagonist who's a female and one of the top 10 strongest characters in the entire series. Unlike Kale and Caulfia, Big Mom isn't a fanservice character, she's ugly and fat. Nobody has called out Big Mom for feminism, even though she's fat. Given how Dragon Ball has yet to create a primary female antagonist (18 barely even qualifies as an antagonist), it has a lot of catch up to do. I also feel sorry for the fanbase for being so ignorant on anime in general.

You’re accusing the fan base of being ignorant yet you assumed that I potentially haven’t watched naruto or one piece?

I watch boruto every week and get more excited about watching/reading one piece than I do dragon ball. I'm very much aware of every anime you’ve mentioned, including fairy tale.

Kaguya wasn’t a bad addition. All they did was play on the “mother of all” perspective and it worked fine. I had absolutely no problem with Kaguya, Big Mom or Erza playing such powerful rolls. I explained this to you already. I also never had a problem with 18 kicking the crap out Vegeta and Trunks. All these females you mentioned had been foreshadowed as being exceptional with the exception of Erza. Hers was different if I remember correctly.

Do you know why I (and many others) stopped watching fairy tale? All this ridiculous fan service and power of friendship crap. Too much fan service makes a show suck. There were better ways to introduce Kale and Caulifla than the way they did. All the shows mentioned thus far had much better introductions than these two. Caulifla and kale were fan service characters who got bogus power ups.

How exactly was Erza not"foreshadowed" as being exceptional when she was hyped up to be a beast in battle by Natsu and Grey before she even made an official appearance? A large portain of her character is based on the idea that she is a mighty knight. Also it's apparent you're ignorant to a large portion of Fairy Tail, or just not good at paying attention, considering you continue to misspell the title of the series. That's the equivalent of calling Dragon Ball Super "Dragon Ball Z Super".

[iamthelaw7]

Overall, in dragon ball there just haven't been many strong female protagonists that contribute to the plot in key ways.

Why does there need to be ? If Toriyama wants to focus on one demographic and one type of character then so be it, it's his choice and the choice he thinks he can write the best story around. Like I said before, if you try to satisfy everyone, you end up satisfying no one.

It would be one thing if all of the characters were male. But there are female characters in the show, so I was talking about analyzing their roles as female characters.

[sintzu]

There are female characters in the show, so I was talking about analyzing their roles as female characters.

That's another issue, there ARE female characters but you don't like the roles they have, others might not like the way they look, they way they act, their race, etc. so does Toriyama have to answer to ALL of that ?

By the time Toriyama's done catering to everyone, DB's main goal will have been long lost. If you, me or anyone else wants a certain thing then we can simply go to where it is instead of demanding others to change their ways to cater to ours. DB's main target demographic are young boys and his style revolves around strong male characters punching each other, if that's not for you then simply move to what is.

[iamthelaw7]

There are female characters in the show, so I was talking about analyzing their roles as female characters.

That's another issue, there ARE female characters but you don't like the roles they have, others might not like the way they look, they way they act, their race, etc. so does Toriyama have to answer to ALL of that ?

By the time Toriyama's done catering to everyone, DB's main goal will have been long lost. If you, me or anyone else wants a certain thing then we can simply go to where it is instead of demanding others to change their ways to cater to ours. DB's main target demographic are young boys and his style revolves around strong male characters punching each other, if that's not for you then simply move to what is.

You asked a question, of whether there is sexism and gender stereotypes in the show, and I answered the question. Regardless, the show is now incorporating more strong female characters, which I think is great. I don't agree with your arguments because they seem to legitimize or make excuses for having gender stereotypes in a show, but everyone has their opinion. DB is my favorite fictional series of all time, no joke, so obviously it never stopped me from watching before. But there's nothing wrong with analyzing the show, the good and the bad.

[Michsi]

Can't even have female characters without it being accused of some ulterior motive; am I the only one who thinks they just exist because Toriyama wanted it?

Too simple.

I think there was an interview, one made somewhat recently as opposed to early 90's when he was still working on DB, where he states that had he been drawing DB "now", he probably would've included more female fighters. It made me think that the low nr. of women in the story weren't necessarily because he had something against the notion of a female fighter himself, but rather that was the status quo of the shonen genre at that time. I mean, they still existed here and there but were treated as an oddity/exception whereas as in more modern stories such as Naruto/Bleach/BnHA they're presence is incorporated as something a lot more commonplace.

There are acts and ideas present that I don't agree with regarding how women were used, but one of the things that I have always wondered about (and seemed a like something positive to me) was this casualness with which he had Bulma have a child after what was essentially seemed to be a one night stand at the time. Doesn't seem like something you'd see a lot depicted in shonen stories, even today.

[Majin Jator]

I think there was an interview, one made somewhat recently as opposed to early 90's when he was still working on DB, where he states that had he been drawing DB "now", he probably would've included more female fighters. It made me think that the low nr. of women in the story weren't necessarily because he had something against the notion of a female fighter himself, but rather that was the status quo of the shonen genre at that time. I mean, they still existed here and there but were treated as an oddity/exception whereas as in more modern stories such as Naruto/Bleach/BnHA they're presence is incorporated as something a lot more commonplace.

There are acts and ideas present that I don't agree with regarding how women were used, but one of the things that I have always wondered about (and seemed a like something positive to me) was this casualness with which he had Bulma have a child after what was essentially seemed to be a one night stand at the time. Doesn't seem like something you'd see a lot depicted in shonen stories, even today.

This is what he said:

Koyama:
Er, there’s something I’d like to ask you: does the Saiyan race have any women? There are no female Saiyans drawn in the original work.

Toriyama:
I didn’t draw any.

Koyama:
Are there no women, then? I’m often asked by Dragon Ball fans.

Toriyama:
Actually, I’m sure they at least exist.

Koyama:
Well, children are born, so they wouldn’t be there without women, is what you’re saying?

Toriyama:
That’s right. If I remember correctly, in an anime special (A Final, Solitary Battle), a female Saiyan also appeared.

Koyama:
Plus, Vegeta married Bulma and had a child with her, so there would have to have been women.

Toriyama:
I hadn’t thought about it too deeply… but since they’re a warrior race, I think I simply didn’t draw any women. If it were this day and age, I might have drawn strong women, as well.

Koyama:
It was a time when there were hardly any anime with women who fought, wasn’t it?

Toriyama:
Well, it’d be hard to defeat a woman.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ma-nozawa/

[Michsi]

This is what he said:

Koyama:
Er, there’s something I’d like to ask you: does the Saiyan race have any women? There are no female Saiyans drawn in the original work.

Toriyama:
I didn’t draw any.

Koyama:
Are there no women, then? I’m often asked by Dragon Ball fans.

Toriyama:
Actually, I’m sure they at least exist.

Koyama:
Well, children are born, so they wouldn’t be there without women, is what you’re saying?

Toriyama:
That’s right. If I remember correctly, in an anime special (A Final, Solitary Battle), a female Saiyan also appeared.

Koyama:
Plus, Vegeta married Bulma and had a child with her, so there would have to have been women.

Toriyama:
I hadn’t thought about it too deeply… but since they’re a warrior race, I think I simply didn’t draw any women. If it were this day and age, I might have drawn strong women, as well.

Koyama:
It was a time when there were hardly any anime with women who fought, wasn’t it?

Toriyama:
Well, it’d be hard to defeat a woman.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ma-nozawa/

Yup, I think that's the one. It really does seem more like it was a then-mentality sort of thing.

Either way, Caulifla seems exactly the sort of character he would like and create. Kale is a bit of an oddity, even mellow Lunch wasn't like this.

[SansrivaaL]

This thread reminds me of the Roshi one we had when people were calling him a rapist.

[VegettoEX]

This thread reminds me of the Roshi one we had when people were calling him a rapist.

This adds nothing to the discussion.

This website is the last place I wanted to see politics being discussed.

Politics (all societal issues, etc.), as they relate to the content and production of Dragon Ball in at least some tangential way, have always been welcome and encouraged, and will continue to be forever. They have been part of our news coverage, part of our website/podcast content, and part of our community's discourse since the beginning.

[namekiansaiyan]

This is what he said:

Koyama:
Er, there’s something I’d like to ask you: does the Saiyan race have any women? There are no female Saiyans drawn in the original work.

Toriyama:
I didn’t draw any.

Koyama:
Are there no women, then? I’m often asked by Dragon Ball fans.

Toriyama:
Actually, I’m sure they at least exist.

Koyama:
Well, children are born, so they wouldn’t be there without women, is what you’re saying?

Toriyama:
That’s right. If I remember correctly, in an anime special (A Final, Solitary Battle), a female Saiyan also appeared.

Koyama:
Plus, Vegeta married Bulma and had a child with her, so there would have to have been women.

Toriyama:
I hadn’t thought about it too deeply… but since they’re a warrior race, I think I simply didn’t draw any women. If it were this day and age, I might have drawn strong women, as well.

Koyama:
It was a time when there were hardly any anime with women who fought, wasn’t it?

Toriyama:
Well, it’d be hard to defeat a woman.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... ma-nozawa/

Yup, I think that's the one. It really does seem more like it was a then-mentality sort of thing.

Either way, Caulifla seems exactly the sort of character he would like and create. Kale is a bit of an oddity, even mellow Lunch wasn't like this.

Kale reeks of Toyotaro that is why. Toyotaro also probably did Kefla.