People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

[Asura]

I get it and your points seem good (except the Freeza one, I think that's a negative)

You're saying Freeza has been a negative on this arc?

I was disagreeing with your statement that Freeza being a completely different character was a good thing. Why? Did you want me to elaborate?

That's up to you, I was just rather surprised since even the most die-hard haters of this arc think that Freeza has been a blessing.

[Zagacious]

Why are you getting so angry for? It seems like to you can't handle any negativity from other people towards something you like.

That's kind of the point of this thread.

SO MANY people here on the Kanzenshuu forums specifically seem to have such diametrically opposite opinions of this arc compared to the rest of the watching audience that an entire thread has been dedicated to addressing this issue head-on by creating an outlet for people to discuss the positives, since the negatives take up SO MUCH of everything else.

Seriously, it's insane how much of a difference there is in the average opinion.

I frequently see this stated when people are trying to defend Super and have run out of excuses. It's the same time of excuse people use to defend some random idea they have no arguments for (Everyone else agrees with me!!! or You're the only one that thinks that!) where 'everyone else' is extremely vague and probably means nothing in actuality. I've actually seen the opposite, people here are relatively constructive about their criticisms compared to other sites like Facebook,YouTube, and many other sites people are flaming the hell out of this show 24/7.

The point was that randomly saying 'The audience likes Goku' as a defense to showing Goku constantly is just a dismissive made up excuse and there's no evidence for it, it's not any better than just saying "I'm right you're wrong". Anyone can just make up what the "average opinion" is depending on where they go so it means absolutely nothing.

[Doctor.]

It is a lot easy to create discussion when it comes to negatives or disagreements.

If you say something is good and then I agree, what is there to discuss?

And if you say something is bad and then I agree, what is there to discuss?

It's exactly why this thread was made, because everywhere else here is just people sitting around a table patting themselves on the back and agreeing with each other about how much they hate the arc. You're welcome to go to the bunch of other threads on the front page that are like that, just don't bring it here.

Do you want an echo chamber?

[Asura]

It is a lot easy to create discussion when it comes to negatives or disagreements.

If you say something is good and then I agree, what is there to discuss?

And if you say something is bad and then I agree, what is there to discuss?

It's exactly why this thread was made, because everywhere else here is just people sitting around a table patting themselves on the back and agreeing with each other about how much they hate the arc. You're welcome to go to the bunch of other threads on the front page that are like that, just don't bring it here.

Do you want an echo chamber?

I dunno, do you? Because most of this forum is just an echo chamber for negativity, so it's making me laugh that people actually have a problem with a thread dedicated to discussing the strengths of the arc. How many threads have we had talking about how they're "disappointed" in the ToP or how "this is what the ToP has done wrong"? Nothing wrong with those threads that are created just to discuss the negatives of the arc, but this one's a problem because it talks about the positives, huh? God forbid anyone actually likes this arc.

[Doctor.]

I dunno, do you? Because most of this forum is just an echo chamber for negativity, so it's making me laugh that people actually have a problem with a thread dedicated to discussing the strengths of the arc. How many threads have we had talking about how they're "disappointed" in the ToP or how "this is what the ToP has done wrong"? Nothing wrong with those threads that are created just to discuss the negatives of the arc, but this one's a problem because it talks about the positives, huh? God forbid anyone actually likes this arc.

You'll still see people in those threads arguing against what other people consider to be negatives.

[Asura]

I dunno, do you? Because most of this forum is just an echo chamber for negativity, so it's making me laugh that people actually have a problem with a thread dedicated to discussing the strengths of the arc. How many threads have we had talking about how they're "disappointed" in the ToP or how "this is what the ToP has done wrong"? Nothing wrong with those threads that are created just to discuss the negatives of the arc, but this one's a problem because it talks about the positives, huh? God forbid anyone actually likes this arc.

You'll still see people in those threads arguing against what other people consider to be negatives.

This thread was not created to be an echo chamber for people to delude themselves into thinking the ToP is great because we only discuss positive aspects of it, it's just a thread to counter all the negative threads out there and all the negativity towards the arc in general. Can you not deal with the fact that people actually like this arc?

It seems to me like you're complaining about the fact people have positive things to say about the arc, in a forum where the majority seems to be negative about it. It's not enough though that most of the forum is negative about it, but you have to instead try and derail a thread that's positive about the arc to try and turn it into negative discussion.

Again, there's a bunch of other threads where you can talk about how much you dislike the arc. Bringing your negativity into a thread that's focused on the positive aspects of the arc just makes you look petty and makes it seem like you can't deal with other people having different opinions. And before you say that I can't deal with different opinions which is why this thread exists to be a "positive echo chamber", no the reason why this thread exists is exactly for the reasoning of having different opinions, because negative voices speak the loudest and barely anything positive about this arc shines through in a sea of negativity on this forum. This thread exists so people can share a different opinion than the majority, or even just for people to say "I'm not a fan of the overall arc, but here are the things I do enjoy about it"

[Doctor.]

I dunno, do you? Because most of this forum is just an echo chamber for negativity, so it's making me laugh that people actually have a problem with a thread dedicated to discussing the strengths of the arc. How many threads have we had talking about how they're "disappointed" in the ToP or how "this is what the ToP has done wrong"? Nothing wrong with those threads that are created just to discuss the negatives of the arc, but this one's a problem because it talks about the positives, huh? God forbid anyone actually likes this arc.

You'll still see people in those threads arguing against what other people consider to be negatives.

This thread was not created to be an echo chamber for people to delude themselves into thinking the ToP is great because we only discuss positive aspects of it, it's just a thread to counter all the negative threads out there and all the negativity towards the arc in general. Can you not deal with the fact that people actually like this arc?

It seems to me like you're complaining about the fact people have positive things to say about the arc, in a forum where the majority seems to be negative about it. It's not enough though that most of the forum is negative about it, but you have to instead try and derail a thread that's positive about the arc to try and turn it into negative discussion.

Again, there's a bunch of other threads where you can talk about how much you dislike the arc. Bringing your negativity into a thread that's focused on the positive aspects of the arc just makes you look petty and makes it seem like you can't deal with other people having different opinions. And before you say that I can't deal with different opinions which is why this thread exists to be a "positive echo chamber", no the reason why this thread exists is exactly for the reasoning of having different opinions, because negative voices speak the loudest and barely anything positive about this arc shines through in a sea of negativity on this forum. This thread exists so people can share a different opinion than the majority, or even just for people to say "I'm not a fan of the overall arc, but here are the things I do enjoy about it"

Why are you getting so defensive? You made a comment that made it seem like you wanted an echo chamber and I asked you if you wanted an echo chamber. Now you're projecting all these things I didn't say on to my posts.

Also, in case you're not aware, this isn't a ToP-exclusive thing. Negativity has always been a constant with Super, from the start. The show sucks, of course the negativity is going to drown out the positivity. The Zamasu arc was a nightmare to discuss for anyone who enjoyed it, so... welcome to the club, I guess?

[Zagacious]

Also, in case you're not aware, this isn't a ToP-exclusive thing. Negativity has always been a constant with Super, from the start. The show sucks, of course the negativity is going to drown out the positivity. The Zamasu arc was a nightmare to discuss for anyone who enjoyed it, so... welcome to the club, I guess?

In b4 "Oh but Kanzenshuu is the only place they hate it, it's LOVED everywhere else " or "DBZ did it worse" , no but seriously getting kind of old. I understand if people are annoyed at the people who are mindlessly hating Super (the ones that give no reasons for their criticisms) but there are just as many, if not more people here who are mindlessly defending it. I think a lot of the hate stems from people who find problems with the show, and then people defending Super straight up make lies or exaggerations just to defend it.

[Kinokima]

Also, in case you're not aware, this isn't a ToP-exclusive thing. Negativity has always been a constant with Super, from the start. The show sucks, of course the negativity is going to drown out the positivity. The Zamasu arc was a nightmare to discuss for anyone who enjoyed it, so... welcome to the club, I guess?

In b4 "Oh but Kanzenshuu is the only place they hate it, it's LOVED everywhere else " or "DBZ did it worse" , no but seriously getting kind of old. I understand if people are annoyed at the people who are mindlessly hating Super (the ones that give no reasons for their criticisms) but there are just as many, if not more people here who are mindlessly defending it.

But saying the show sucks so that is why there is negativity is not an argument lol

The show doesn’t suck because fans complain on the Internet.

[Zagacious]

Also, in case you're not aware, this isn't a ToP-exclusive thing. Negativity has always been a constant with Super, from the start. The show sucks, of course the negativity is going to drown out the positivity. The Zamasu arc was a nightmare to discuss for anyone who enjoyed it, so... welcome to the club, I guess?

In b4 "Oh but Kanzenshuu is the only place they hate it, it's LOVED everywhere else " or "DBZ did it worse" , no but seriously getting kind of old. I understand if people are annoyed at the people who are mindlessly hating Super (the ones that give no reasons for their criticisms) but there are just as many, if not more people here who are mindlessly defending it.

But saying the show sucks so that is why there is negativity is not an argument lol

The show doesn’t suck because fans complain on the Internet.

If that's the only piece of information you gathered from that then I don't know what to tell you, read it again?...

[Asura]

You'll still see people in those threads arguing against what other people consider to be negatives.

This thread was not created to be an echo chamber for people to delude themselves into thinking the ToP is great because we only discuss positive aspects of it, it's just a thread to counter all the negative threads out there and all the negativity towards the arc in general. Can you not deal with the fact that people actually like this arc?

It seems to me like you're complaining about the fact people have positive things to say about the arc, in a forum where the majority seems to be negative about it. It's not enough though that most of the forum is negative about it, but you have to instead try and derail a thread that's positive about the arc to try and turn it into negative discussion.

Again, there's a bunch of other threads where you can talk about how much you dislike the arc. Bringing your negativity into a thread that's focused on the positive aspects of the arc just makes you look petty and makes it seem like you can't deal with other people having different opinions. And before you say that I can't deal with different opinions which is why this thread exists to be a "positive echo chamber", no the reason why this thread exists is exactly for the reasoning of having different opinions, because negative voices speak the loudest and barely anything positive about this arc shines through in a sea of negativity on this forum. This thread exists so people can share a different opinion than the majority, or even just for people to say "I'm not a fan of the overall arc, but here are the things I do enjoy about it"

Why are you getting so defensive? You made a comment that made it seem like you wanted an echo chamber and I asked you if you wanted an echo chamber. Now you're projecting all these things I didn't say on to my posts.

Also, in case you're not aware, this isn't a ToP-exclusive thing. Negativity has always been a constant with Super, from the start. The show sucks, of course the negativity is going to drown out the positivity. The Zamasu arc was a nightmare to discuss for anyone who enjoyed it, so... welcome to the club, I guess?

You and I must have different recollections of the Future Trunks arc and how it was received here. Prior to 66 and 67, there was overwhelming positivity about the arc. Better animation than U6, better art than U6, better story than U6, return of Future Trunks, what wasn't there to love? FT arc was a blessing at the time in comparison to everything that came before it, and no way in hell was the treatment the FT arc received anywhere near the treatment the ToP arc gets here.

I'm not projecting anything, the first post you posted in this thread was overwhelmingly negative, saying there is almost nothing good about the arc. You came into a thread called let's talk about the ToP's strengths, and immediately started bashing it and talking about its flaws. Why would you have any reason to do that other than the fact that you can't accept the opinions of people who like the arc or find that it's not all bad and there is some good in it?

Also, in case you're not aware, this isn't a ToP-exclusive thing. Negativity has always been a constant with Super, from the start. The show sucks, of course the negativity is going to drown out the positivity. The Zamasu arc was a nightmare to discuss for anyone who enjoyed it, so... welcome to the club, I guess?

In b4 "Oh but Kanzenshuu is the only place they hate it, it's LOVED everywhere else "

While there are plenty of people mindlessly hating on Super, I would say there are just as many, if not more people mindlessly defending it, to the point of acting like many obvious flaws don't even exist at all.

Actually it was received really well here at the time (before 66 and 67), and mixed everywhere else.

This thread isn't about mindlessly defending Super. Likewise, the threads people post complaining about the arc isn't people mindlessly hating on Super either. There are a lot of good reasons to like this arc, and a lot of good reasons to dislike it. I just don't see why people feel the need to come in here and bash the arc. If someone doesn't find anything good about the arc, then why would they post in this thread? I can't even remember the last time I saw a thread talking about the good things of the ToP, so it's pretty amazing to me that people actually have to come in here and start bashing it cause they can't even bare the thought of people saying anything good about the arc.

The thread isn't meant for discussion or debate over the flaws of the arc, there are plenty of other threads like that. It's just meant for compiling a list of things that people enjoy about the arc. It's not an echo chamber, because an echo chamber would ignore anything outside of the chamber. This is just a place to talk about the strengths of the arc, that's all. I think everyone who has posted here knows there's obviously a lot of flaws with the arc, but that doesn't stop them from enjoying some parts of it. Other people viciously hate the arc though and can't bare the thought of people actually finding good things in it.

[Kinokima]

In b4 "Oh but Kanzenshuu is the only place they hate it, it's LOVED everywhere else " or "DBZ did it worse" , no but seriously getting kind of old. I understand if people are annoyed at the people who are mindlessly hating Super (the ones that give no reasons for their criticisms) but there are just as many, if not more people here who are mindlessly defending it.

But saying the show sucks so that is why there is negativity is not an argument lol

The show doesn’t suck because fans complain on the Internet.

If that's the only piece of information you gathered from that then I don't know what to tell you, read it again?...

But that is exactly what the other poster said. The show sucks so that is why there is constant negativity. That is what I was referring to not your post. So maybe you should read it again.

As for your post I don’t think Super should be free of criticism & critical analysis but there is a big difference between people who just want to enjoy the series and be positive and those who just watch to hate on the show and say how awful it is.

So those who mindlessly criticize and those who mindlessly defend to me actually aren’t the same. Because at least the ones who watch just to enjoy & not be critical are spending their energy on something positive.

[Doctor.]

You and I must have different recollections of the Future Trunks arc and how it was received here. Prior to 66 and 67, there was overwhelming positivity about the arc. Better animation than U6, better art than U6, better story than U6, return of Future Trunks, what wasn't there to love? FT arc was a blessing at the time in comparison to everything that came before it, and no way in hell was the treatment the FT arc received anywhere near the treatment the ToP arc gets here.

I'm not projecting anything, the first post you posted in this thread was overwhelmingly negative, saying there is almost nothing good about the arc. You came into a thread called let's talk about the ToP's strengths, and immediately started bashing it and talking about its flaws. Why would you have any reason to do that other than the fact that you can't accept the opinions of people who like the arc or find that it's not all bad and there is some good in it?

We definitely do, because the FT arc started getting hate around episode 57, I remember it very clearly, and it only grew from there.

My first post in this thread was discussing what you considered good about the arc and I finished said post saying that the animation and soundtrack were good, so I was doing exactly what you asked. Saying my post was wrong or bad because I disagreed with what you considered good is the definition of wanting the thread to be an echo chamber.

[Asura]

You and I must have different recollections of the Future Trunks arc and how it was received here. Prior to 66 and 67, there was overwhelming positivity about the arc. Better animation than U6, better art than U6, better story than U6, return of Future Trunks, what wasn't there to love? FT arc was a blessing at the time in comparison to everything that came before it, and no way in hell was the treatment the FT arc received anywhere near the treatment the ToP arc gets here.

I'm not projecting anything, the first post you posted in this thread was overwhelmingly negative, saying there is almost nothing good about the arc. You came into a thread called let's talk about the ToP's strengths, and immediately started bashing it and talking about its flaws. Why would you have any reason to do that other than the fact that you can't accept the opinions of people who like the arc or find that it's not all bad and there is some good in it?

We definitely do, because the FT arc started getting hate around episode 57, I remember it very clearly, and it only grew from there.

My first post in this thread was discussing what you considered good about the arc and I finished said post saying that the animation and soundtrack were good, so I was doing exactly what you asked.

Episode 57? The episode which many consider to be one of the best episodes of the FT arc with Goku & Trunks vs Black & Zamasu? You're telling me that's when people started hating the arc? I don't think so. I remember the hype was massive after that episode, I remember I was hyped as fuck after that episode.

I don't think you did exactly what I asked at all, because I asked "People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths" and then you went on to start talking about how everything is a flaw except for your one quick sentence at the end where you said "Oh yeah, art and soundtrack are good" lol.

But whatever, I'm done with this discussion because you pretty much got exactly what you wanted, which was to completely derail the thread of any positivity.

[Doctor.]

You and I must have different recollections of the Future Trunks arc and how it was received here. Prior to 66 and 67, there was overwhelming positivity about the arc. Better animation than U6, better art than U6, better story than U6, return of Future Trunks, what wasn't there to love? FT arc was a blessing at the time in comparison to everything that came before it, and no way in hell was the treatment the FT arc received anywhere near the treatment the ToP arc gets here.

I'm not projecting anything, the first post you posted in this thread was overwhelmingly negative, saying there is almost nothing good about the arc. You came into a thread called let's talk about the ToP's strengths, and immediately started bashing it and talking about its flaws. Why would you have any reason to do that other than the fact that you can't accept the opinions of people who like the arc or find that it's not all bad and there is some good in it?

We definitely do, because the FT arc started getting hate around episode 57, I remember it very clearly, and it only grew from there.

My first post in this thread was discussing what you considered good about the arc and I finished said post saying that the animation and soundtrack were good, so I was doing exactly what you asked.

Episode 57? The episode which many consider to be one of the best episodes of the FT arc with Goku & Trunks vs Black & Zamasu? You're telling me that's when people started hating the arc? I don't think so. I remember the hype was massive after that episode, I remember I was hyped as fuck after that episode.

I don't think you did exactly what I asked at all, because I asked "People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths" and then you went on to start talking about how everything is a flaw except for your one quick sentence at the end where you said "Oh yeah, art and soundtrack are good" lol.

But whatever, I'm done with this discussion because you pretty much got exactly what you wanted, which was to completely derail the thread of any positivity.

Yes, 57, it turned away the casual crowd due to the powerlevel issues and the complaints from others intensified as the story started going to shit.

Again, do you expect people to ignore the claims you make in the OP and mindlessly agree? That's an echo chamber. I read your post, disagreed with stuff and discussed it. Because that's what a forum is for: to discuss. You might as well make a blog post if you weren't expecting feedback.

You taking issue with the way I worded my post does not take way from the fact that I answered the thread's request. All it means is that I was hard-pressed to find something to praise.

[mfwlegend3]

Yes, 57, it turned away the casual crowd due to the powerlevel issues and the complaints from others intensified as the story started going to shit.

That's almost the complete opposite from how I remember it. I remember fans praising 57 and getting on the arc's hype train because of Shida's animation bit in the episode. There were people pointing out Trunks managing to keep up with SSR and Zamasu managing to exchange blows with SSB, but other than that, the majority were all for the episode. 56 and 57 are what made people love SSR.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

Yes, 57, it turned away the casual crowd due to the powerlevel issues and the complaints from others intensified as the story started going to shit.

That's almost the complete opposite from how I remember it. I remember fans praising 57 and getting on the arc's hype train because of Shida's animation bit in the episode. There were people pointing out Trunks managing to keep up with SSR and Zamasu managing to exchange blows with SSB, but other than that, the majority were all for the episode. 56 and 57 are what made people love SSR.

I don't recall there being many complaints when 57 came out. I saw a lot of people praising it as one of the best episodes of Super (myself included). The only complaint I remember was that some people didn't like that Trunks was keeping up with Black and Zamasu. I definitely wouldn't say that the episode turned away the casual crowd.

I would go back and look through the Super episode discussion archives on this forum to see how people reacted, but most of them have disappeared for some reason.

[PsionicWarrior]

The only complaint I remember was that some people didn't like that Trunks was keeping up with Black and Zamasu.

Yep I was actually part of that angry mob, but now after some time I give it a pass, after an oath I took in front of the highest Gods not to care about power levels in Super ever again lol

[Jigurashi]

What I've felt were this saga's strengths so far?

- Better usage of the cast. It is FAR from perfect, but a hell of a lot better than how they've been used since like the mid 90s. Roshi, Gohan, Kuririn, 17, and Freeza have all gotten something so far with Roshi being given the most love. Hell even Puar got to play some role in that Puar was a big part of Roshi's development. Though Tenshinhan got fucking buried.

- Art/animation. Already been mentioned before but the overall quality has shot up considerably. Average episodes nowadays are FAR more pleasing to look at than old Super episodes. Makes you realize how outright ugly Super use to look like.

- Music. The music is fucking fantastic. This saga has the best soundtrack in Super, and probably DB in general for me. Jiren's Theme, Clash of Gods, Hit VS Dyspo, Frantic Battle, Ultimate Battle, All out Battle are so damn good. Especially the last like 7 episodes have had some really fitting tracks.

- Fights. The qualities of the fights have gone way up since before. As apart of art/animation, it helps that the fights are more pleasing to look at. Average fights in this saga really put to shame some of the better fights before this saga. This saga's given me fights like Goku VS Jiren, Goku VS Caulifla + Kale, Hitto VS Dyspo, Hitto VS Jiren, Cabba VS Monna, Roshi VS Universe 4, Majin Boo VS Basil, Gohan VS Lavender, Goku VS Toppo, and Goku VS Gohan just to name some fights that I've absolutely loved. Some of these fights have even made it into my top 10 favorite fights in the franchise with Goku VS Jiren ranking #3.

- Freeza. Freeza's very entertaining this saga. He was a great addition so far. He steals every scene he's in. Made even better that he is the Namek Vegeta of this saga.

- Goku + UI. I've found myself really coming to enjoy Goku more in this saga than any other in Super. If there's any critique to give him, it's probably his overuse this saga. Despite this, they've given the guy the best fights imo. Made even better with his UI transformation, which is my favorite transformation since his original SSJ back on Namek. I also love how UI as the technique actually changes the way Goku fights, offers up something quite new to DB.