People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:16 pm

Strengths in my opinion (mixture of technical and narrative)

- Plethora of interesting designed characters
- The format of the tournament allows for much more fun and interesting episodes as well as the animation team able to comes up with more interesting animation, watching the U6 tournament it is so lumbered it is not a joke, the entire arc not one fight is that interesting.
- Animation has been top notch, remember seeing people say Toei can't pull it off and they proved us wrong!
- Direction has stepped up massively from prior arcs too.
- Recruitment episodes, allow much needed build up.
- Format that allows Goku to be able to be fighting on screen at all times.
- Roshi getting actual character development for the first time and then getting respect from Vegeta and Beerus!
- Goku showed signs of emotion for what hasn't felt since Namek!
- Ultra Instinct.
- Teacher pupil relationships between Vegeta and Cabba & Goku and Caulifla/Kale.
- Freeza. What on paper seemed an awful idea has been executed well and in turn makes Resurrection "F" important to the narrative of modern DB, remember all the people saying the film was "pointless", yeah...
- Idea of a survival tournament just adds an extra layer of stake and tension.
- Music, Sumitomo has totally killed it with all these new tracks, elevated scenes so much more.
- Female Super Saiyans finally, Kale is okay but Caulifla is just the best <3.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by Tombstone1988 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:42 pm

Kanassa wrote:You're saying it like those are mutually exclusive concepts.
Of course they don't have to be mutually exclusive. I was talking about this episode specifically. The whole Yurin scenario was nonsensical, but there was charm to it. Hence, bad writing but mindless fun.
Lord Beerus wrote:Tien still did nearly just as much in Super as he did in all of Z.
I was more making a joke of how Tien has failed in Super as much as Yamcha failed in Z.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:- Goku showed signs of emotion for what hasn't felt since Namek!
This is another good point about the arc. While his characterization has been sporadic, he has definitely shown moments of raw emotion that have been missing for a while. Aside from that one scene in the Zamasu Arc, Goku hasn't been very emotionally invested in the events of Super. This arc, a few episodes (episode 105 in particular) do a good job of portraying Goku's relationship with his friends and family.
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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:51 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote: - Format that allows Goku to be able to be fighting on screen at all times.
That is the worst thing about this arc you mean.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:54 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: - Format that allows Goku to be able to be fighting on screen at all times.
That is the worst thing about this arc you mean.
Given how popular Goku is in his home country, it's probably the exact opposite for the primary fanbase.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:55 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote: - Format that allows Goku to be able to be fighting on screen at all times.
That is the worst thing about this arc you mean.
Clearly not, since given the topic title. Breaking news: people like Goku and don't mind him having the majority of the spotlight. Is that something so difficult to comprehend?

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by The gr » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:56 pm

Goku did show emotion before,when he raged out against & when he show regret for leaving trunks behind.
    They are some positive in this saga,the exhibition match were fun,gohan vs lavender is one of the best match in super.
      Master roshi being revelant,his episodes were really good especially 107,that episode was my favorite because how well directed it was and the cast being in the frontline is a joy.
        The format in spite of sounding imposible for animation leads to more interesting match up and is more unpredictable,i never felt a sense of mystery in db before,i literally can't predict how this saga will end or the function of the bugs of u4 making this more enjoyable than u6.
          Hit,#17,UI,the big 3 pride trooper and freeza are also a good addition for this,there is more to mention but that's it for today.
            Finally ssg is getting more screentime :mrgreen: someone need to make an album of good screenshot for that form.
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            Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

            Post by namekiansaiyan » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:01 pm

            PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
            namekiansaiyan wrote:
            Baggie_Saiyan wrote: - Format that allows Goku to be able to be fighting on screen at all times.
            That is the worst thing about this arc you mean.
            Given how popular Goku is in his home country, it's probably the exact opposite for the primary fanbase.
            I will never believe that most people in Japan only watch for Goku.
            Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
            namekiansaiyan wrote:
            Baggie_Saiyan wrote: - Format that allows Goku to be able to be fighting on screen at all times.
            That is the worst thing about this arc you mean.
            Clearly not, since given the topic title. Breaking news: people like Goku and don't mind him having the majority of the spotlight. Is that something so difficult to comprehend?
            There are also people who don't like it and prefer other characters as well.

            Why are you getting so angry for? It seems like to you can't handle any negativity from other people towards something you like.

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            Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

            Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:04 pm

            namekiansaiyan wrote:Why are you getting so angry for? It seems like to you can't handle any negativity from other people towards something you like.
            That's kind of the point of this thread.

            SO MANY people here on the Kanzenshuu forums specifically seem to have such diametrically opposite opinions of this arc compared to the rest of the watching audience that an entire thread has been dedicated to addressing this issue head-on by creating an outlet for people to discuss the positives, since the negatives take up SO MUCH of everything else.

            Seriously, it's insane how much of a difference there is in the average opinion.

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            Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

            Post by Asura » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:04 pm

            Brettjr25 wrote:I get it and your points seem good (except the Freeza one, I think that's a negative)
            You're saying Freeza has been a negative on this arc?

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            Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

            Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:10 pm

            namekiansaiyan wrote:There are also people who don't like it and prefer other characters as well.

            Why are you getting so angry for? It seems like to you can't handle any negativity from other people towards something you like.
            Err maybe because you were rude and were acting what I wrote was wrong and I meant something else "That is the worst thing about this arc you mean." Clearly I didn't f**king mean that, did I? You wanna challange someone's point fine but DO NOT be rude about it. Something like " I don't agree with it here's why" not "you mean worse". :roll:

            Furthermore this thread is for discussing STRENGTHS... Take your bleeding negativity elsewhere if this what you are going to do here. There was no reason to signal out my post and the act rudely. None at all.

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            Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

            Post by namekiansaiyan » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:24 pm

            PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
            namekiansaiyan wrote:Why are you getting so angry for? It seems like to you can't handle any negativity from other people towards something you like.
            That's kind of the point of this thread.

            SO MANY people here on the Kanzenshuu forums specifically seem to have such diametrically opposite opinions of this arc compared to the rest of the watching audience that an entire thread has been dedicated to addressing this issue head-on by creating an outlet for people to discuss the positives, since the negatives take up SO MUCH of everything else.

            Seriously, it's insane how much of a difference there is in the average opinion.
            It is a lot easy to create discussion when it comes to negatives or disagreements.

            If you say something is good and then I agree, what is there to discuss?
            Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
            namekiansaiyan wrote:There are also people who don't like it and prefer other characters as well.

            Why are you getting so angry for? It seems like to you can't handle any negativity from other people towards something you like.
            Err maybe because you were rude and were acting what I wrote was wrong and I meant something else "That is the worst thing about this arc you mean." Clearly I didn't f**king mean that, did I? You wanna challange someone's point fine but DO NOT be rude about it. Something like " I don't agree with it here's why" not "you mean worse". :roll:

            Furthermore this thread is for discussing STRENGTHS... Take your bleeding negativity elsewhere if this what you are going to do here. There was no reason to signal out my post and the act rudely. None at all.
            My comment was not meant to be rude and stop taking everything so seriously.

            Anyway it is time to end this discussion now.

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            Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

            Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:32 pm

            namekiansaiyan wrote:
            PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
            namekiansaiyan wrote:Why are you getting so angry for? It seems like to you can't handle any negativity from other people towards something you like.
            That's kind of the point of this thread.

            SO MANY people here on the Kanzenshuu forums specifically seem to have such diametrically opposite opinions of this arc compared to the rest of the watching audience that an entire thread has been dedicated to addressing this issue head-on by creating an outlet for people to discuss the positives, since the negatives take up SO MUCH of everything else.

            Seriously, it's insane how much of a difference there is in the average opinion.
            It is a lot easy to create discussion when it comes to negatives or disagreements.

            If you say something is good and then I agree, what is there to discuss?
            Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
            namekiansaiyan wrote:There are also people who don't like it and prefer other characters as well.

            Why are you getting so angry for? It seems like to you can't handle any negativity from other people towards something you like.
            Err maybe because you were rude and were acting what I wrote was wrong and I meant something else "That is the worst thing about this arc you mean." Clearly I didn't f**king mean that, did I? You wanna challange someone's point fine but DO NOT be rude about it. Something like " I don't agree with it here's why" not "you mean worse". :roll:

            Furthermore this thread is for discussing STRENGTHS... Take your bleeding negativity elsewhere if this what you are going to do here. There was no reason to signal out my post and the act rudely. None at all.
            My comment was not meant to be rude and stop taking everything so seriously.

            Anyway it is time to end this discussion now.
            If the discussion is naturally borne. What you did was not natural, you literally took on snip from my post and then tried to spin it as a negative. Furthermore your comment wasn't even engaging discussion at all you literally tried to be snarky, and yes that is rude spinning someone's words as what they aren't.

            How is this engaging discussion "That is the worst thing about this arc you mean."? It is not at all, you literally came in here with an agenda to spin something negative.

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            Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

            Post by Asura » Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:46 pm

            namekiansaiyan wrote:It is a lot easy to create discussion when it comes to negatives or disagreements.

            If you say something is good and then I agree, what is there to discuss?
            And if you say something is bad and then I agree, what is there to discuss?

            It's exactly why this thread was made, because everywhere else here is just people sitting around a table patting themselves on the back and agreeing with each other about how much they hate the arc. You're welcome to go to the bunch of other threads on the front page that are like that, just don't bring it here.

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            Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

            Post by Olympian » Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:56 pm

            Tombstone1988 wrote:
            I was more making a joke of how Tien has failed in Super as much as Yamcha failed in Z.
            You mean badly written or what? What exactly did he proposed to do that he failed at?
            Ki Breaker wrote:

            Yamcha + Roshi = Yamoshi

            Coincidence? I think not

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            Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

            Post by Kinokima » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:59 pm

            I don’t understand why people are posting their grievances in a thread that is meant to be positive. Come on guys I have plenty of issues with the TOP too but this isn’t the thread for that!

            And saying that I will say things I personally enjoy about the TOP

            * The unique tag teams we did get (and I pray we get more) rarities like the following
            - Goku and the Androids
            - Gohan and Freeza
            - Vegeta and Roshi


            * The return of Android 17 (I am excited for this even though he hasn’t done much yet)

            * The characterization of Freeza. I’ve never enjoyed Freeza this much in the series ever!

            * Some heart warming Vegeta & Cabba moments even if was short lived and the mention of visiting Planet Sadala again

            * For the most part better animation/art design

            * Ultra Instinct is gorgeously designed

            * The execution isn’t necessarily perfect but overall I am happy we got female Saiyans

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            Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

            Post by Asura » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:04 pm

            OP has been updated with an "Android 17" section, and the mystery surrounding Quitela has been added to the "Tension" section. Also changed the "Art & Animation" picture because Takahashi makes me cream myself.

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            Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

            Post by Beerus-sama » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:24 pm

            I find most of the arc to be boring since theres no tension and mostly are battles with random characters but if I have to name the good things...

            -The art
            - The opening and endings
            - some of the new soundtracks
            - the return of 17
            - Freeza

            Although the last two don't show themselves so much, its good to have them back.

            Maybe the addition of female Saiyans, I'm neutral about the characters but its good to see they exist and that they can go SSJ too :D
            ... talking about the female saiyans, I like Kafla's base design. :thumbup:
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            Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

            Post by Brettjr25 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:22 pm

            Asura wrote:
            Brettjr25 wrote:I get it and your points seem good (except the Freeza one, I think that's a negative)
            You're saying Freeza has been a negative on this arc?
            I was disagreeing with your statement that Freeza being a completely different character was a good thing. Why? Did you want me to elaborate?

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            Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

            Post by MajinMan » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:00 pm

            1. One strength I don't see talked about much is the music. Sumitomo stepped up his fucking game for this arc. Lately we've had plenty of great, new songs playing. The past 10 or so episodes in particular have introduced some real bangers. This arc has by far the best soundtrack in Super.

            2. The consistent animation. It really does feel like we finally hit that consistency that many fans have longed for since the start of Super. Not every episode looks great because this is still a weekly anime with no real breaks, but we have yet to come across an episode like 67, where it just completely fell apart. I don't think Super will ever dip that low again, and I'm really happy about that. The episodes following the spectacular 1-hour special is proof of that.

            3. Giving other characters something to do. People may complain that Goku takes up too much screentime, and as of late they have a strong point, but I feel that this arc has used the cast more than Dragon Ball has since probably the Cell arc. Muten Roshi in particulr has been a very surprising highlight that many fans, including me, have really enjoyed. Freeza has been an even bigger surprise, and not to mention the return of 17. Kuririn has had some great stuff too, as well as Gohan and even Piccolo to an extent. So much good stuff for all these characters, except Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan got completely demolished.

            4. The story. It seems people are very mixed when it comes to tournament arcs in general, and this one is no stranger to the plethora of complaints that accompany the praises. I for one love tournament arcs. I rate the 3 in DB really highly and the ones we've gotten in Super are also solid. The Universe 6 tournament is probably the worst from the 5 major ones, but I stilled enjoyed it for what it was. This tournament has been pretty good so far. I don't think it will end up passing the Tenkaichi Budokai's from DB, but I still like it. One complaint that I have is the immense amount of episodes that its taking to finish up. All the ones from DB were about 15-20 episodes long. The Universe 6 arc was like 15 too. This one is on the verge of hitting 40, and there's still a lot of shit that needs to get done. It's too long, even though I don't think that it's bad. It might be a bit of a drag to sit down and watch in the future because of its length, no matter how good it gets/is.
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            Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

            Post by emperior » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:14 pm

            These is my list of this arc's strenghts so far:

            Freeza
            Bringing him back was one of the best things that could happen in this show. He's bringing some awesome interactions ever since he came back and his hand "slipped", I love that scene. Episode 95, other than being one of the best episodes of Super, presented Freeza as a real threat and his intentions of manipulating the Gods were shown. Whether or not he will be able to complete his plans, he's being incredibly witty so far. After Future Trunks and RoF humiliated Freeza's character, I'm glad he's finally back in full force and showing everyone why he is the best villain of the franchise. I'm very hyped to see what will happen with him in Super.

            C-17
            Another great come-back. I'm loving him so far, and I never really cared much about him in DBZ because he didn't have much screentime. He's been handled perfectly so far. There's not much more to say, except that, like with Freeza, his re-introduction in episode 86 was incredible. Episode 86 is a masterpiece in terms of animation and backgrounds, the whole atmosphere in 17's island is realistic and immersive.

            Ultra Instinct
            The mastery of self movement. Words can't describe how much I love this form and its concept. As a huge fan of Bruce Lee, I couldn't wish for anything more than what I got. Bonus points for it being very simple in terms of appearance, and those grey eyes are just too good. The mystery around UI is very intriguing and it looks awesome in battle. Episode 110 is my favorite episode of Super because of how well UI was introduced.

            Art and animation
            There's not much to say, except that art has been very consistent ever since episode 77, and the new filter definitely helped. Yamamuro finally updating Goku's and Vegeta's design was a great move, and a needed change. As for animation, it has been awesome when it mattered, and otherwise good in other occasions. I'm very happy of the state Super is in right now. The directors took some very smart decisions so far, like having a slower DBZ-like pacing, and the schedule has definitely been improved.

            Backgrounds
            Backgrounds deserve a mention. They have been incredibly good most of the times in this arc.

            Music
            Starting from a badass new opening song, the music has been very, very good so far, especially episode 110's insert song. Music in general has been great ever since the beginning of Future Trunks arc.

            There are many other good things about this arc, but these are the arc's true strengths in my opinion.
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