People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by Asura » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:25 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:Ugh I didn't realize it was receiving that much hate, I mean come on no way anything from GT is better lol
Honestly most of the hate stems from here. You look around at some other websites and some prominent youtubers like MasakoX who love the arc and suddenly the outlook on it doesn't seem as grim as many people like to paint it to be here. As PerhapsTheOtherOne pointed out, this arc has been very successful in getting people in to watching Super. Jiren vs Goku is one of the most hyped fights in Dragon Ball history, crashing multiple streaming sites preventing people from even watching it for almost an hour after it went live. If the arc was as horrific as some people say, people would be dropping the show. Instead, it's only growing in popularity, and ironically enough the people who absolutely hate the arc and think it's the worst thing in DB existence with almost nothing positive about it (like a few people in this thread *cough* *cough*) keep watching it, so clearly it must not be as bad as they even say it is if they keep coming back for more.

It's like eating at a restaurant and loudly exclaiming you hate the food, there's nothing good about it, the chefs are untalented and don't know what they're doing, yet you keep eating the food, even while going around to the other tables and telling people about how bad the food is at the restaurant. This is all while you're still eating the food right in front of them.

Of course people can keep watching the arc even if they dislike it because they must find some kind of enjoyment out of it, so that food scenario isn't aimed at those people. For those people who think there's almost no redeeming qualities to it though, why are you still watching?

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by DSB » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:33 pm

ToP is probably the Single best Arc since Freeza arc. I will just keep it short.

Just the INTRO SONG for this specific arc is the best Dragon ball Song i have ever heard. And i amd still hearing it non stop everyday since February. I dont speak Japanese but it has become one of my favorite songs of all time.
And i have seen people throwing words like Mary Sue and Asspulls every other second. Go away idiots. How does a 7 year old get Super Saiyan? Isnt that an Asspull? At least Cabba and the saiyan Girls are as strong as Perfect Cell in Base. they DESERVE SUPER SAIYAN

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:35 pm

What I enjoy most about this arc is the unpredictability. I mean, really, I have no idea how this is all going to end. Most obvious conclusion is Goku winning and wishing the universes back with the super dragon balls, but I don't think Goku has won a single time in this series. He's Ash Ketchum, at this point.

Every other tournament, we knew Goku, win or lose, would make it to the finals. There were no stakes either, besides the final one with Piccolo, which was by far the most predictable (incidentally, my favorite too).
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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:37 pm

Asura wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:Ugh I didn't realize it was receiving that much hate, I mean come on no way anything from GT is better lol
Honestly most of the hate stems from here. You look around at some other websites and some prominent youtubers like MasakoX who love the arc and suddenly the outlook on it doesn't seem as grim as many people like to paint it to be here. As PerhapsTheOtherOne pointed out, this arc has been very successful in getting people in to watching Super. Jiren vs Goku is one of the most hyped fights in Dragon Ball history, crashing multiple streaming sites preventing people from even watching it for almost an hour after it went live. If the arc was as horrific as some people say, people would be dropping the show. Instead, it's only growing in popularity, and ironically enough the people who absolutely hate the arc and think it's the worst thing in DB existence with almost nothing positive about it (like a few people in this thread *cough* *cough*) keep watching it, so clearly it must not be as bad as they even say it is if they keep coming back for more.

It's like eating at a restaurant and loudly exclaiming you hate the food, there's nothing good about it, the chefs are untalented and don't know what they're doing, yet you keep eating the food, even while going around to the other tables and telling people about how bad the food is at the restaurant. This is all while you're still eating the food right in front of them.

Of course people can keep watching the arc even if they dislike it because they must find some kind of enjoyment out of it, so that food scenario isn't aimed at those people. For those people who think there's almost no redeeming qualities to it though, why are you still watching?
We ultimately all watch and hope that the arc reaches some of its potential even if we don't like many things about it currently.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by Asura » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:48 pm

If you've found no redeeming qualities in the arc so far and don't enjoy it at all, then why do you think it would change at this point?

Most people don't watch something they hate and get no enjoyment out of for 9+ months.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:55 pm

Asura wrote:If you've found no redeeming qualities in the arc so far and don't enjoy it at all, then why do you think it would change at this point?

Most people don't watch something they hate and get no enjoyment out of for 9+ months.
All the characters I care about are not out yet so that is why and there are things I do like about the arc.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by Kanassa » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:07 pm

Asura wrote:
Kanassa wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:* looks left *

* looks right *

* looks over both shoulders *

I think the Tournament Of Power is the best tournament arc Dragon Ball has ever done.

* runs away *
You mean the Zamasu Arc, right?
Ah yes, the tournament to see who could kill mortals the fastest, Zamasu or Zamasu. Quite the tournament it was, although I think Zeno won the finals in the end.
I swear is said 'best arc' when I clicked the quote button...
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:09 pm

Like the OP stated, it seems to be mostly fringe groups like the Kanzenshuu forums and others that really consider this latest arc to be dirt and not worth the DB name.

The main strength of this arc is that it has EVERYTHING. Like, literally EVERYTHING. A super strong antagonist. Goku reaching new heights. Fights with huge power levels colliding. Fights with intuitive martial arts. Interesting developments based on past precedents. An expansion of the Universes we've learned about. Moments, ideas, and situations that we'd have NEVER gotten before.

No matter what people think of the execution or the quality, the sheer level of content keeps bringing in folks and making headlines throughout the entertainment industry in Japan. Spoilers for upcoming episodes are now a serious problem. YouTubers are going nuts. A new age of revitalization for the franchise has taken hold now thanks to the new life breathed into the franchise with this arc.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:14 pm

Real talk though, as of now, the Universal Survival/Tournament Of Power arc is a solid 9/10, the best arc of Super so far and among the best arcs in all of Dragon Ball.

The Zen Exhibition matches were great, with Majin Boo vs Basil being the major highlight.

The recruitment/build up episodes had some really good world building and provided some of the franchises best episodes visually speaking and in terms of character writing.

And I've found myself very satisfied with the actual tournament itself. Every episode of the Tournament Of Power brought something different to the table, and for most part, I've enjoyed what the tournament has provided. And Episodes 109-110 were not just the high point(s) of Super, but of the entire franchise. The only episode I've really been disappointed with is Episode 106, but other than that, I've really enjoyed at least a few aspect of each episode in this arc as a whole.

I just hope they can keep up with the quality and stick the landing. Because right now, I have how no idea they're going to end this. But that ironically is one of this arc's great attributes. It's incredibly unpredictable.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by dbs fanboy » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:16 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Arc has barely any positives besides the soundtrack and the animation.
B-but, what about Freeza?, what about Roshi?, what about Vegeta/Roshi? , what about Ribri...... i should stop by now.

WHAT ABOUT ULTRA INSTINCT?
I really miss ma boy, Black :( :cry:


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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by sunkensheep » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:51 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Real talk though, as of now, the Universal Survival/Tournament Of Power arc is a solid 9/10, the best arc of Super so far and among the best arcs in all of Dragon Ball.

The Zen Exhibition matches were great, with Majin Boo vs Basil being the major highlight.

The recruitment/build up episodes had some really good world building and provided some of the franchises best episodes visually speaking and in terms of character writing.
I agree in total. They did such a great job in defining some characters' psychologies, like Krillin overcoming his PTSD for his many deaths and finding a new motivation in a world of warriors way stronger than him, Freeza becoming a scheming sadist who's willing to sacrifice his universe for his own survival at the first occasion, Muten Roshi being able to put up a fight with stronger but less experienced fighters thanks to his martial artist's skills, all things that never occurred in DBZ, where only power mattered (except for Mr.Satan, who would have saved the world with no fighting but just by becoming Buu's friend if they didn't kill his dog). I think that Super in this arc has improved at least those three characters' psychological depth, making them more human and interesting.

The only thing that I see as a missing occasion in this arc is that we didn't get to know well a the other contestants prior to the tournament, something that could have also been done in a manga as a side story to be integrated with the anime, to create more hype and making us more involved in this or that universe's possible elimination.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by MaskedRider » Sat Nov 11, 2017 4:57 pm

Asura wrote: Freeza is a completely new character
God I love this sentence, I really mean that. Not being sarcastic, that is a good way to describe Freeza currently.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:05 pm

MaskedRider wrote:
Asura wrote: Freeza is a completely new character
God I love this sentence, I really mean that. Not being sarcastic, that is a good way to describe Freeza currently.
I will have to respectfully disagree, while he went through some character development he still is the same sadistic manipulative asshole we love lol

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by Asura » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:32 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:
MaskedRider wrote:
Asura wrote: Freeza is a completely new character
God I love this sentence, I really mean that. Not being sarcastic, that is a good way to describe Freeza currently.
I will have to respectfully disagree, while he went through some character development he still is the same sadistic manipulative asshole we love lol
True, but the way he goes about his actions as well as his personality is completely different from previous incarnations of the character. He's always shown as someone who thinks very little of his opponent, who overestimates his own strength and respects no one, who loses his temper constantly and will start whining when someone gets near his level of power. Now his temper is completely gone. He's calm all the time, and while his ego and wanting to be the strongest is in tact, he's no longer delusional enough to think he actually is the strongest, and respects those with power greater than his, but more-so in an "I respect you now, but eventually you'll be bowing before me" type of way, whereas before it was just no, screw you dirty monkey, you'll bow before me now because I am the greatest and the strongest.

Freeza is more like Frost now. He's calculative, he's manipulative, he's cunning, there's a lot more to him now than just his overwhelming power which was the only thing on display in RoF aside from his temper tantrums. The character feels more mature and feels like the best possible evolution of a character that we were all more than tired of already, and I don't think we could have ever seen this more interesting side of Freeza if he wasn't forced to fight alongside Goku & Vegeta against a common enemy.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:36 pm

Asura wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:
MaskedRider wrote:
God I love this sentence, I really mean that. Not being sarcastic, that is a good way to describe Freeza currently.
I will have to respectfully disagree, while he went through some character development he still is the same sadistic manipulative asshole we love lol
True, but the way he goes about his actions as well as his personality is completely different from previous incarnations of the character. He's always shown as someone who thinks very little of his opponent, who overestimates his own strength and respects no one, who loses his temper constantly and will start whining when someone gets near his level of power. Now his temper is completely gone. He's calm all the time, and while his ego and wanting to be the strongest is in tact, he's no longer delusional enough to think he actually is the strongest, and respects those with power greater than his, but more-so in an "I respect you now, but eventually you'll be bowing before me" type of way, whereas before it was just no, screw you dirty monkey, you'll bow before me now because I am the greatest and the strongest.

Freeza is more like Frost now. He's calculative, he's manipulative, he's cunning, there's a lot more to him now than just his overwhelming power which was the only thing on display in RoF aside from his temper tantrums. The character feels more mature and feels like the best possible evolution of a character that we were all more than tired of already, and I don't think we could have ever seen this more interesting side of Freeza if he wasn't forced to fight alongside Goku & Vegeta against a common enemy.
That's something, else. This arc feels like the real culmination of every arc before it. The realm of the higher gods has been introduced, Whis's training has bore fruit, Freeza has been humbled, the idea of tournaments between mortals at the whims of gods and Zen'oh's authority has been established, and the character of mortals has been brought into question that has been catalyzed into a fight for survival thanks to Future Zen'oh being brought into the main timeline.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:37 pm

@Asura

I don't think he respects Goku. Receiving energy from him on Namek was his greatest humiliation and he was too happy to be in opposite position. He also fears Jiren and knows Goku is the only one who can beat him. He is also aware of the stakes of the tournament. He will do something nasty by the end of the arc I'm sure. You know it's a bit like Vegeta teaming up with Gohan and Kuririn on Namek, he didn't respect them one bit but didn't have a choice. It's smart.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by Doctor. » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:10 pm

dbs fanboy wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Arc has barely any positives besides the soundtrack and the animation.
B-but, what about Freeza?, what about Roshi?, what about Vegeta/Roshi? , what about Ribri...... i should stop by now.

WHAT ABOUT ULTRA INSTINCT?
I said barely any, not none. Freeza, Roshi, Hit and Ultra Instinct, and probably a few other little things, have all been great.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by Asura » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:26 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:@Asura

I don't think he respects Goku. Receiving energy from him on Namek was his greatest humiliation and he was too happy to be in opposite position. He also fears Jiren and knows Goku is the only one who can beat him. He is also aware of the stakes of the tournament. He will do something nasty by the end of the arc I'm sure. You know it's a bit like Vegeta teaming up with Gohan and Kuririn on Namek, he didn't respect them one bit but didn't have a choice. It's smart.
No, I think he does respect Goku. Goku is someone he's always looked down upon as being inferior, nothing more than a stupid monkey nuisance, but after being bested by him a second time I think he does have respect for Goku as a fighter, and I think he sees Goku (right now, anyway) as an equal, whereas before he always thought he ruled over him. Freeza respects Goku's power and isn't foolishly and blindingly believing he's much more powerful than him.

That all being said he absolutely still hates Goku's guts, this much will never change. The difference is now he respects Goku as a worthy adversary and a worthy fighter, and won't underestimate him ever again. I think this is further demonstrated after Goku returns in his Ultra Instinct form after being presumed dead, and Freeza says "Of course, I would have expected nothing less." upon the reveal that Goku is still alive.

And I think Vegeta did have some respect for Gohan and Krillin on Namek, after seeing their repeated bravery against him on Earth and their feats on Namek, and how they never once ran away but stood by his side fighting the entire time.

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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:31 pm

Freeza's the best part of it so far, it really does go to show you a bad guy can get development besides turning into one of the good guys. His plot line is easily the most engaging part of ToP and the reason I keep watching it.

I'd also give the special a lot of credit too for being an excellent example of Dragon Ball done right on a story and animation level.

Ultra Instinct is another hightlight, unlike God or Blue which just feel like more SS forms except with big numbers attached some place, Ultra Instinct is properly explained and it's unique attributes instantly make it feel like more of a godly form then either of the other one's.
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Re: People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

Post by majinwarman » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:08 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:* looks left *

* looks right *

* looks over both shoulders *

I think the Tournament Of Power is the best tournament arc Dragon Ball has ever done.

* runs away *
I agree with you please don't kill me people.
sunkensheep wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Real talk though, as of now, the Universal Survival/Tournament Of Power arc is a solid 9/10, the best arc of Super so far and among the best arcs in all of Dragon Ball.

The Zen Exhibition matches were great, with Majin Boo vs Basil being the major highlight.

The recruitment/build up episodes had some really good world building and provided some of the franchises best episodes visually speaking and in terms of character writing.
I agree in total. They did such a great job in defining some characters' psychologies, like Krillin overcoming his PTSD for his many deaths and finding a new motivation in a world of warriors way stronger than him, Freeza becoming a scheming sadist who's willing to sacrifice his universe for his own survival at the first occasion, Muten Roshi being able to put up a fight with stronger but less experienced fighters thanks to his martial artist's skills, all things that never occurred in DBZ, where only power mattered (except for Mr.Satan, who would have saved the world with no fighting but just by becoming Buu's friend if they didn't kill his dog). I think that Super in this arc has improved at least those three characters' psychological depth, making them more human and interesting.

The only thing that I see as a missing occasion in this arc is that we didn't get to know well a the other contestants prior to the tournament, something that could have also been done in a manga as a side story to be integrated with the anime, to create more hype and making us more involved in this or that universe's possible elimination.
I agree with all of this and I just believe that the Internet will have the haters louder than the supporters. So, it will just scare people from telling their own opinions.
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