People are always talking about the flaws of the ToP arc, so let's talk about its strengths

[FortuneSSJ]

* looks left *

* looks right *

* looks over both shoulders *

I think the Tournament Of Power is the best tournament arc Dragon Ball has ever done.

* runs away *

That's not even a competition. Tournament of Power destroys any other DB tournament by far.

- Much more interesting characters
- More memorable moments - Goku/Vegeta vs U9 team, U9 erasure, Caulifla/Kale vs the Pride Troopers, Goku/Hit tag-team, Frost reversing the Mafuba, Episode 110...
- Worldbuilding
- Higher stakes
- Different kind of fights - 1 vs 1, tag-team and handicap.
- Better fights
- Overall it's consistently good looking

Extra points for being something unique and not a Tournament format already done before.

The only thing missing is some blood, but it's not a deal breaker.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

I really want to save my final thoughts on the arc once it's over and I can binge it all just to see how I truly feel about it. I'll write down some of its strengths though.

It started out super strong. The Zen Exhibition match was such a good idea and a great way to set things up. The following recruitment episodes were, for the most part, really good. Goku recruiting Krillin, 17 and Freeza stand out as some of my favourites. Speaking of Freeza, I swear to god, every time this guy is on screen I am always being entertained. Remember how everyone was shitting on this idea? "I swear I'll drop Super if Freeza comes back again." They look so fucking stupid right now. Freeza's one of the best things about this arc. Episode 95 is absolutely fantastic and is one of the best portrayals of Freeza. During the tournament, he is such a wild card. He's so unpredictable. It makes for so many entertaining scenes.

I love that side characters are finally being used. Krillin, Roshi, 18, 17 and Tien (sort of) are finally doing something and I love seeing them in action. Especially Roshi! My god, I love this guy. Episodes 105 and 107 are wonderful! Little things like Beerus having respect for Roshi absolutely sell these moments for me.

I honestly believe that Ultra Instinct is the best transformation we've seen since Gohan turning Super Saiyan 2 at the Cell Games. This transformation was so powerful that it destroyed streaming services. I have never been so sold on an increase in power like this before. Usually, when someone gains new strength in this series, the fight that follows just consists of them beating up their enemy. But with UI Goku vs Jiren, their fight actually felt like it was on another level. That was some genius animation. If you look at the fight in slow motion such as when Goku is dashing towards Jiren and then unleashes a flurry of punches, you can see Goku blocking Jirens punches for like a couple of frames. I didn't even notice this while it was in motion.

Jiren, as stoic as he is and as bland as he looks, is an absolute monster in terms of power. They do such a good job of showing just how much more powerful he is in comparison to everyone else. He's strong. Plain and simple. And I like that. I actually don't know how anyone is going to beat this guy.

That's another thing I like. I don't know how this arc is going to unfold. I love being surprised and good lord this arc has caught me off guard so many times. I have no idea how this tournament is going to end or who is going to win.

Sumitomo stepped his music game the fuck up. There have been sooo many great tracks in this arc. My favourite is definitely the track that plays while UI Goku and Jiren are fighting in the air and then climaxes when Goku throws the final blow but ultimately does nothing. Ultimate Battle is such a blood-pumping track, first time I heard this I damn near lost my shit. That song was stuck in my head for days.

I've realised lately that Dragon Ball is a series made up of its moments. Goku turning Super Saiyan for the first time, Gohan and Goku's Father-Son Kamehameha, Vegeta's sacrifice etc. This arc has plenty of those. Goku achieving Ultra Instinct will go down as one of my favourite Dragon Ball moments ever. What's really cool about it is that the series has been building up to this transformation since Resurrection 'F' and I didn't even realise it! I also love that it's not a Saiyan transformation. It's so goddamn refreshing.

I love seeing so many beloved characters on display and they're all part of plenty of action. So far, the arc doesn't top the Future Trunks arc for me, but I am having a lot of fun with it. If we're talking production, this is without a doubt Super's best. So many great fights and wonderfully animated scenes.

[majinwarman]

I really want to save my final thoughts on the arc once it's over and I can binge it all just to see how I truly feel about it. I'll write down some of its strengths though.

It started out super strong. The Zen Exhibition match was such a good idea and a great way to set things up. The following recruitment episodes were, for the most part, really good. Goku recruiting Krillin, 17 and Freeza stand out as some of my favourites. Speaking of Freeza, I swear to god, every time this guy is on screen I am always being entertained. Remember how everyone was shitting on this idea? "I swear I'll drop Super if Freeza comes back again." They look so fucking stupid right now. Freeza's one of the best things about this arc. Episode 95 is absolutely fantastic and is one of the best portrayals of Freeza. During the tournament, he is such a wild card. He's so unpredictable. It makes for so many entertaining scenes.

I love that side characters are finally being used. Krillin, Roshi, 18, 17 and Tien (sort of) are finally doing something and I love seeing them in action. Especially Roshi! My god, I love this guy. Episodes 105 and 107 are wonderful! Little things like Beerus having respect for Roshi absolutely sell these moments for me.

I honestly believe that Ultra Instinct is the best transformation we've seen since Gohan turning Super Saiyan 2 at the Cell Games. This transformation was so powerful that it destroyed streaming services. I have never been so sold on an increase in power like this before. Usually, when someone gains new strength in this series, the fight that follows just consists of them beating up their enemy. But with UI Goku vs Jiren, their fight actually felt like it was on another level. That was some genius animation. If you look at the fight in slow motion such as when Goku is dashing towards Jiren and then unleashes a flurry of punches, you can see Goku blocking Jirens punches for like a couple of frames. I didn't even notice this while it was in motion.

Jiren, as stoic as he is and as bland as he looks, is an absolute monster in terms of power. They do such a good job of showing just how much more powerful he is in comparison to everyone else. He's strong. Plain and simple. And I like that. I actually don't know how anyone is going to beat this guy.

That's another thing I like. I don't know how this arc is going to unfold. I love being surprised and good lord this arc has caught me off guard so many times. I have no idea how this tournament is going to end or who is going to win.

Sumitomo stepped his music game the fuck up. There have been sooo many great tracks in this arc. My favourite is definitely the track that plays while UI Goku and Jiren are fighting in the air and then climaxes when Goku throws the final blow but ultimately does nothing. Ultimate Battle is such a blood-pumping track, first time I heard this I damn near lost my shit. That song was stuck in my head for days.

I've realised lately that Dragon Ball is a series made up of its moments. Goku turning Super Saiyan for the first time, Gohan and Goku's Father-Son Kamehameha, Vegeta's sacrifice etc. This arc has plenty of those. Goku achieving Ultra Instinct will go down as one of my favourite Dragon Ball moments ever. What's really cool about it is that the series has been building up to this transformation since Resurrection 'F' and I didn't even realise it! I also love that it's not a Saiyan transformation. It's so goddamn refreshing.

I love seeing so many beloved characters on display and they're all part of plenty of action. So far, the arc doesn't top the Future Trunks arc for me, but I am having a lot of fun with it. If we're talking production, this is without a doubt Super's best. So many great fights and wonderfully animated scenes.

You just thought everything that I was thinking of. I really like this arc and want future arc to be better than even this. I do want them to stick the landing on this arc. If they need to take their time then take it. I don't make another episode 66 and 67. At the end of this arc I believe people will finally respect Super and give it more credit that deserves.

[Tombstone1988]

Concept

Agreed on the concept. Although the execution of the concept is very hit-or-miss, that doesn't stop the idea itself from being great.

Atmosphere

I believe this point should really be renamed to "cinematography." The cinematography of this arc is indeed very good. Atmosphere, on the other hand... not so much.

Art & Animation

Pretty much fully agree. Don't feel I need to go too much into this one.

Tension

On this, you are technically correct. Narrative tension is a term used to describe anticipation, uncertainty and investment. The format of a tournament in which the fates of 8 universes are at stake certainly invokes these feelings. When people (even myself) criticize "a lack of tension" or "fake tension," it's in actuality usually due to poor conflict. Conflict is the opposition that characters face; it is in this aspect that this arc is really at fault. That's not to say it's great at narrative tension; Goku and Vegeta vs. Universe 9, for example, was obviously going to result in Goku and Vegeta winning. That removes uncertainty and reduces investment, resulting in poor tension. As a general rule though, the tournament has done a good job at narrative tension but a poor job at conflict.

On the subject of the Grand Priest, I really don't give a toss about him, so I don't have anything to say.

Soundtrack

Agreed.

Pacing

On this point, I mostly disagree. I honestly don't really care if the arc matches Z's length or not; how long an arc is has no real bearing on its quality. Obviously it matters in some regard; the Zamasu Arc really could have done with an extra couple episodes for the final bout, as an example. But being long just for the sake of being long is unnecessary to me. Granted, I'm not the biggest anime fan, so perhaps my opinion on this matter is in the minority. I've seen how long One Piece has been going on for.

And I certainly don't think the show should be designed with the mindset of being primarily binge watched. Each episode should bring its entertainment and value to the table (which, to be fair, a lot of them this arc do). I really don't want Future Trunks vs. Perfect Cell 2.0.

Tag-Teams

Mostly agreed. I feel they still played it a bit too safe, such as Gohan always being teamed up with Piccolo, but I've enjoyed seeing 18 work with Goku and Frost work with Megetta.

Universe-Building

I wouldn't say anyone finds the universe-building flawed, it's more like it is disappointing. Most of these universes we have never seen before this arc. There are so many possibilities with what could be explored with them. However, rushing straight to a tournament that dictates their fates sort of minimizes how much time we get to devote to them. As such, Super's world-building this arc feels rushed and thus not as expansive or fulfilling as it could. It's been said before, but I feel an arc between this current one and the Zamasu arc where we better established these universes could have done wonders.

Ultra Instinct

I'm not sure Goku necessarily needed a new transformation, but Ultra Instinct is pretty interesting.

Freeza

This one is still so confusing for me. On the one hand, bringing Freeza back again and having him replace Buu (who fell asleep again) was very irritating. Freeza had his arc and I feel his story was concluded. On the other hand, Freeza has undoubtedly had the best character writing this arc. He's interesting to watch and is usually a highlight for an episode. I want to hate the fact that Super is reusing Freeza, but he's so intriguing that I can't bring myself to hate him.

Conclusion

I think you laid out a few solid points on why this arc is still enjoyable despite having a few (quite a few, actually) flaws. I'd still say the Zamasu Arc (sans the final two episodes) was better, but this arc has shown enough merit to keep me tuned in every week. I too look forward to what Super's future brings.

The recruitment/build up episodes had some really good world building and provided some of the franchises best episodes visually speaking and in terms of character writing.

When you say this, I assume you mean "except for that awful Roshi recruitment episode." Calling that episode "great character writing" feels wrong on more than one level.

[Tian]

You know...I gotta thank this arc for letting Freeza to be his sadistic and child-like self again (something I feel Fukkatsu no F arc wasted), 17 to show his potential as both character and fighter and bringing back Ultimate Gohan.

The only things of the arc I don't like are Ribrianne and Kale and Caulifla being too dramatic when they are in fight situations. I know they are "sisters" but I find it annoying they mention it every damn second.

[buutenks]

Ssg, saiyan battle, more Freeza, ssj2 and got to see ssj3. Hit got cool new moves and Jiren. Oh and fem broly.

[Lord Beerus]

The recruitment/build up episodes had some really good world building and provided some of the franchises best episodes visually speaking and in terms of character writing.

When you say this, I assume you mean "except for that awful Roshi recruitment episode." Calling that episode "great character writing" feels wrong on more than one level.

Yeah, except that episode. All the rest were ranged from decent to great.

[kinisking]

Tag-Teams and world building are both negatives. The ToP has done nothing to improve the world, considering the entire concept skims through the 12 universes without properly expanding them, and it has also done nothing in terms of team-ups considering we're just seeing the same Gohan + Piccolo and Goku + Vegeta team-ups we've seen since time immemorial. The pacing is also terrible considering most fighters have been thrown out like trash; there's no excuse for it now that we see the tournament is gonna last a fuck-ton of episodes and people are already complaining that they're focusing on the same characters over and over again. There's no tension for anyone on U7 considering we know how the series ends; at best there's tension for characters outside of U7 but the show hasn't made a very good job of making us care for any of them.

Arc has barely any positives besides the soundtrack and the animation.

Not really true. We've seen caulifla and kale, Krillin and 18, 17 and 18, Freeza and Gohan teaming up to have a pretend fight, Roshi and Vegeta for fucks sake ( can't say they weren't teaming up when Roshi saved his ass ), hit and Goku. Definitely not the same team ups as usual.

[Doctor.]

We've seen caulifla and kale, Krillin and 18, 17 and 18, hit and Goku.

All predictable and expected, like ticking boxes on a checklist.

Freeza and Gohan teaming up to have a pretend fight, Roshi and Vegeta for fucks sake ( can't say they weren't teaming up when Roshi saved his ass

These two were less orthodox but they still weren't used to their fullest extent considering they didn't even fight together. Roshi just saved Vegeta and Freeza and Gohan fought each-other.

[Kanassa]

The recruitment/build up episodes had some really good world building and provided some of the franchises best episodes visually speaking and in terms of character writing.

When you say this, I assume you mean "except for that awful Roshi recruitment episode." Calling that episode "great character writing" feels wrong on more than one level.

Nah, I'd say the ROshi and Tien Recruitment episode was pretty damn good.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

There's something that even the vocal opposition cannot deny that this arc does right:

It provides SO MUCH to talk about. There's so much happening that entire discussions can be had on every little detail that happens, even if it happens to offend certain individuals' personal sensibilities.

This arc is jam packed with interesting ideas and executions of said ideas that keeps these forums busy.

[Lord Beerus]

The recruitment/build up episodes had some really good world building and provided some of the franchises best episodes visually speaking and in terms of character writing.

When you say this, I assume you mean "except for that awful Roshi recruitment episode." Calling that episode "great character writing" feels wrong on more than one level.

Nah, I'd say the ROshi and Tien Recruitment episode was pretty damn good.

Not really. I mean, I like Super a lot, but that's definitely one of its weaker episodes. It did a terrible job of building up Tien and Roshi was horribly written. The only saving grace I can take from that subpar episode is that it served as a platform for Roshi's character development and lead to his spectacular performance in the Tournament Of Power where he was better written than he was in the original story. That why I don't label Episode 89 as a bad episode per se, because it lead to something some much better. At least for Roshi. Poor Tien

[HeroR]

The recruitment/build up episodes had some really good world building and provided some of the franchises best episodes visually speaking and in terms of character writing.

When you say this, I assume you mean "except for that awful Roshi recruitment episode." Calling that episode "great character writing" feels wrong on more than one level.

Nah, I'd say the ROshi and Tien Recruitment episode was pretty damn good.

The biggest flaw of the recruitment, Imo, is that they went on too long. By the end it was like, 'can we please get to the tournament'.

[Tombstone1988]

Yeah, except that episode. All the rest were ranged from decent to great.

On a personal level, I also hate the space poacher episode, but otherwise agreed.

Not really. I mean, I like Super a lot, but that's definitely one of its weaker episodes. It did a terrible job of building up Tien and Roshi was horribly written. The only saving grace I can take from that subpar episode is that it served as a platform for Roshi's character development and lead to his spectacular performance in the Tournament Of Power where he was better written than he was in the original story. That why I don't label Episode 89 as a bad episode per se, because it lead to something some much better. At least for Roshi. Poor Tien

Tien, the Yamcha of Super. His character shall be missed.

Nah, I'd say the ROshi and Tien Recruitment episode was pretty damn good.

...Really? You'll have to explain this one to me then. No joke. I can see it being mindless fun, but in no way would I consider it good character writing.

[Brettjr25]

Hm, how should I say this. I think Super, especially this arc is a result of a study of what got people into Dragon Ball and then they rolled it all up and out came this arc. This arc to me is the opening equivalent of "Rock the Dragon". That on top of the fanservice nature of Super (You like Broly! heres Female Broly! Want female Saiyans?? Here's two!! Fusion you like Fusion? now its in every arc! Transformations? 3 every other eps! etc) is what seems like the main appeal of TOP. I get it and your points seem good (except the Freeza one, I think that's a negative) but you have to kind of wonder where's the story driven drama? The tense scenarios? People actually acting based off their personalities and ambitions and not just doing what the plot needs them to do to further push someone elses story. Well anyway I don't want to waste time typing and I think the only way to further get my point across I'll just give you examples of things I loved and missed:

On Namek, when Gohan and Kuririn see the namekians being killed, even knowing that they're outmatched, Gohan goes into a rage and rushes them and Kuririn follows. They save dende and run for there lives. Oh and remember how when Dodoria was hunting them and was closing in on them but he accidently runs into Vegeta! Oh and how about that Vegeta vs Zarbon fight! Which lead to Vegeta vs Zarbon II. Or remember how Goku miscalculated his judgement of Gohan and his plan he setup only to realize the truth from Piccolo. Or how Gohan's transformation was the result of him learning what's important to him and being ok with letting loose instead of his normal repressed upbrining. And oh god don't get me started on how much I loved Vegeta, my second fave character. He had the best development from Saiyan prince, then his utter defeat against Freeza that resulted in him crying, then cold heartless anti hero to eventually to a distant ally. But he couldn't be domesticated, a warrior and ruthless one his entire life felt such conflict in his life resutling in the whole Majin Vegeta that gave us some of DB best lines and story. Now, we have Vegeta, "whats goku doing? Goku is finaly blue. Goku huh" and then just borrowing lines from early db when he's not dancing for Beerus or Bulma.

I like Super, I like this arc. It's fun revisiting old friends and seeing what they are up to. Those strengths are true, the art is definitely better than the art in budget from the 90s. But I guess unlike you I don't always here people talking about the flaws well not as much as the strengths, if anything I've read "best arc in all of DB" too many times and vomit a little in my mouth when I hear it but it's there opinion and if that's how they feel that's fine. I just think it's too lacking for me to praise it or feel like adding on to strengths. At least the Zamasu arc although redundant in so many ways attempted a story. This arc is basically punch or die. Everyone, "ok!" Forget the malicious murdering mosnter, forget the line stating in a previous arc about not being puppets of gods, forget all that just fight until the end and the main "bad guy" is a gray alien super hero whose only purpose is to sit around and wait until you're ready to fight him.

[Kanassa]

Nah, I'd say the ROshi and Tien Recruitment episode was pretty damn good.

...Really? You'll have to explain this one to me then. No joke. I can see it being mindless fun, but in no way would I consider it good character writing.

Yurin was a good blend of incompetence and threatening, kind of like Pilaf but more competent, making an entertaining mini-antagonist, and the reveal that her motivations were so childish was rather nice. I like that Tien started up his own dojo and his general interactions with his students/Yurin actually made me enjoy Tien for once, he fits the role of master quite well, I actually hope we get to see more of his life at the dojo. And Roshi was as entertaining as always and showed why he'd be useful for the tournament, as well as setting up his own character arc that would continue into the TOP. And Goku was just decently funny.

For me, it's a damn good episode and uses it's character well enough for what it intends.

[Tombstone1988]

Yurin was a good blend of incompetence and threatening, kind of like Pilaf but more competent, making an entertaining mini-antagonist, and the reveal that her motivations were so childish was rather nice.

Like I said, I can see it as mindless fun but not good writing. Zombie fighters was silly and nonsensical when Garlic Jr. did it and it was silly and nonsensical when Yurin did it.

I like that Tien started up his own dojo and his general interactions with his students/Yurin actually made me enjoy Tien for once, he fits the role of master quite well, I actually hope we get to see more of his life at the dojo.

I do actually kind of agree with you here. I was thinking more about how he looked like trash when he fought against Roshi, but the stuff as a dojo master was nice. However, it is weird that Gohan was able to easily teach Videl Ki manipulation yet Tien can't properly instruct a single of his students to do so...

And Roshi was as entertaining as always and showed why he'd be useful for the tournament, as well as setting up his own character arc that would continue into the TOP.

Master Roshi was always a pervert, but that was the extent of it. Having him sexually assault and attempt to rape a woman is not good setup, in my opinion.

[PsionicWarrior]

That's not even a competition. Tournament of Power destroys any other DB tournament by far.

- Much more interesting characters

You already lost me there lol

[Kanassa]

Yurin was a good blend of incompetence and threatening, kind of like Pilaf but more competent, making an entertaining mini-antagonist, and the reveal that her motivations were so childish was rather nice.

Like I said, I can see it as mindless fun but not good writing. .

You're saying it like those are mutually exclusive concepts.

[Lord Beerus]

Yeah, except that episode. All the rest were ranged from decent to great.

On a personal level, I also hate the space poacher episode, but otherwise agreed.

Not really. I mean, I like Super a lot, but that's definitely one of its weaker episodes. It did a terrible job of building up Tien and Roshi was horribly written. The only saving grace I can take from that subpar episode is that it served as a platform for Roshi's character development and lead to his spectacular performance in the Tournament Of Power where he was better written than he was in the original story. That why I don't label Episode 89 as a bad episode per se, because it lead to something some much better. At least for Roshi. Poor Tien

Tien, the Yamcha of Super. His character shall be missed.

Eh. The space poacher episode was alright. It had the resolution of Android17 the conviction to join Team Universe 7 and fight in the Tournament Of Power. So it's at the very least serviceable.

Tien still did nearly just as much in Super as he did in all of Z.