Is Super fighting an uphill battle? (Not a hate thread)

[Master Xar]

Honestly I’ve taken a step back to look at the grand picture of how Super is viewed by both casual and hardcore fans and... I gotta say it’s not looking good even with the current arc, it seems that no matter what Super does or how well it’s pulled off it feels like people’s standards are too high nowadays for it to be viewed as genuinely good, don’t get me wrong I know Super is flawed, but especially after the Black arc plenty of people have just seemed to give up on the series or go the alternative “turn your brain off” route... it gets kinda depressing once you think about it.

So what would it take?

What level of quality all-around would it take for Super to TRULY win the crowd back? Because at this point It’d have to have at LEAST 2-3 arcs of some of if not the best Shounen Arcs of all time with beautiful animation, masterfully choreographed fights, compelling narratives, etc. and generate hype even BIGGER than the Black Arc did with ZERO slip-ups...

I dunno maybe it’s just from all the bad news and negativity towards the arc that’s been going around that’s been depressing me regarding the show...

[sintzu]

I'll be more than happy if its quality was on the level of the original 2 anime and its manga counterpart.

The issues with Super aren't just production but the writing as well, it's been terrable. When the Trunks arc finished I was very excited for what was to come next and had a positive outlook for its future but this arc has killed all that for me.

I'm still looking forward to its future as I'll be more than happy to admit if it improves but if not then at least we have the manga.

[MaskedRider]

Super is in the unfortunate position of damned if you do and damned if you don't. It wouldn't matter what it did because you have fans who are pleased with what some fans are displeased with and vice versa. This is a polarizing product, you either in the camp of loving Super or the camp where you pretend it never happened.

Its never going to live up to the years of expectations, years of what fans believed to be what *THEY* think is the perfect sequel, years of hermits crafting their power level maps.

It could hit the ball out of the park with amazing arcs onwards but that wouldn't change the an individuals opinion on the quality of one hundred episodes ranging from average to bad.

But yeah Super is cool.

[Amir]

I disagree that the writing of Super is bad. There are flaws and it's definitely not perfect but at the same time there are positive aspects in the writing just as much as the negative ones if not a lot more.
The only big problems I'm finding in this arc are:

1) The focus on bad ( and new of course) characters more than the better ones while the better old characters get eliminated with bad execution or very quickly ( like Magetta), I mean look at Hit too, he was barely in the TOP and did very little, it was awesome while it lasted, but now he is out, same with Cabba, Magetta, and more will join in I'm afraid. This also prevents more cool character interactions, something Super does superbly, shame.
This flaw is not only on characters, but the events in the TOP. Vegeta vs Toppo is a more important and interesting fight and in terms of power on a much bigger scale than Goku vs Caulifla, yet the focus is on Goku vs Caulifla and the spectators also watch this fight only when it makes no sense. Saiyans fighting is so fucking boring anyways, nothing new or interesting.

2) Caulifla's asspulls power ups. She just gets it for no reason, no hard work, real training and efforts done to achieve these transformations.

3) Power scaling - I think you know the problem here.

Other than those 3 problems I think the rest is great. Yes, sometimes some characters say dumb shit and there is a bit of fake tension 8 ( a big problem of Suepr and it improved vastly), but those are minor and don't even happen a lot.

Z had many plot holes and bad writing, this arc lives up to Z quality imo, not saying it's better than Z but it's on that level now. Can't say it about the rest of the series, like the FT arc and below. The FT arc had so much potential until it started to fall apart in the last bit of 61, episode 64, and then 66 and 67 which ruined everything.

[sintzu]

Other than those 3 problems I think the rest is great.

This arc lives up to Z quality imo, it's on that level now.

Those 3 problems have completely ruined it for me. Yeah there are some good things like Roshi's episode but those problems completely overshadow what little good that's here.

I'm rewatching Z (Kai) now and it's not even close. I just finished the Saiyan arc and it puts this and everything else Super has to offer to shame. Even at its best, it still has nothing on the Saiyan arc. The writing, production, fighting, character interactions, teamwork, etc are on a whole other level. There's more teamwork in the saiyan arc then there is in a tournament that's supposed to revolve around it.

Another thing this arc lacks is tension which is a faaaaaar cry from the sense of these characters trying to survive against the Saiyans and later against Freeza. There was more emotions going on when Yamcha, Chaiotzu & Piccolo died over ENTIRE UNIVERSES combined. In Super's current arc, No one gives a Radtiz about billions of beings getting killed and their own survival on the line.

[Amir]

Other than those 3 problems I think the rest is great.

This arc lives up to Z quality imo, it's on that level now.

Those 3 problems have completely ruined it for me. Yeah there are some good things like Roshi's episode but those problems completely overshadow what little good that's here.

I'm rewatching Z (Kai) now and it's not even close. I just finished the Saiyan arc and it puts this and everything else Super has to offer to shame. Even at its best, it still has nothing on the Saiyan arc. The writing, production, fighting, character interactions, teamwork, etc are on a whole other level. There's more teamwork in the saiyan arc then there is in a tournament that's supposed to revolve around it.

This is where we disagree. No way a show can be ruined by 3 problems when the rest is really good. Infact the only problem I find the worst is the first one with the focus on bad characters. The good elements in Super overshadow those 3 problems by a long shot to me. It's like me saying DBZ sucks because everything was really dragged out, there were plot holes and inconsistencies, Goten and Trunks transformed into SSJ's easily without anyone teaching it to them and without any trigger at all (which is just as bad as Caulifla's SSJ transformations btw) and characters were acting stupid constantly. There were way more flaws than that but if I list everything wrong with DBZ it would take 5 pages, the flaws in that show are almsot endless.

The saiyan arc didn't have better team work than this arc and certainly not more, not even close. No one even fights together in the saiyan arc other than that bit when Piccolo and Krillin put up resistence against Nappa. The rest was one on one fights while everyone else is watching. It wasn't anywhere near impressive as some of the teamwork in the TOP, like Krillin and 18 vs that wolf guy or Kale and Caulifla vs Goku, Kunshi and Dyspo vs Hit, Magetta and Frost vs Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan vs the U6 Namekians....not to mention strategic fights like Hit vs Dyspo and more. This is just not true. As for character interactions and fighting, I have to disagree on that one too, The fights in the TOP not only look better in terms of animation and choreography but are more unique with the variety of techniques shown and more tacticals. Overall, way more interesting to me. Character interactions in the TOP were pretty good just like in the saiyan arc, I have no idea why you would say it's on another level.

I don't think the tension is a problem with this arc, you say the death of Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu had more emotions than the erasure of universe 9&10, which is just not true. Completely different scenarios, in Z the ones who died were close friends, in here it's a universe being eliminated that none of the main cast or even the other universes give a shit about. They reacted just as they naturally should have, they were in shock, yet not sad about it and the ominous soundtrack helped a great deal too, honestly it's so absurd that you bring this scene of Super as a problem where in fact it was a perfectly well executed scene. I just don't get it. When people that don't like Super bring good scenes of Super and claim they were bad I don't know how to respond to it.

[sintzu]

No way a show can be ruined by 3 problems when the rest is really good.

Goten and Trunks transformed into SSJ's easily without anyone teaching it to them and without any trigger at all which is just as bad as Caulifla's SSJ transformations

No one even fights together in the saiyan arc other than that bit when Piccolo and Krillin put up resistence against Nappa.

Krillin and 18 vs that wolf guy or Kale and Caulifla vs Goku, Kunshi and Dyspo vs Hit, Magetta and Frost vs Vegeta,

Piccolo and Gohan vs the U6 Namekians.

TOP not only look better in terms of animation and choreography...

It's more unique with the variety of techniques shown and more tacticals.

You say the death of Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu had more emotions than the erasure of universe 9&10, which is just not true.

They've ruined this arc which in turn ruined the show although I'm still hopeful to see it improving in the next arc.

The difference is that everyone in-universe questioned it and were asking how they did it, everyone in Super acts like it's normal for her to pull off these forms and to give Blue Goku trouble.

And Goku and Piccolo against Raditz...and everyone against Vegeta which is pretty much the whole arc.

They were alright at best.

We didn't even see anything form it yet.

What choreography ? If you think this then you haven't seen Z or the original in awhile cause both put it to shame.

There's been nothing memorable apart from Goku's fight with Jerin.

Now I'm sure you haven't seen Z in awhile or simply in denial about the quality drop. When Yamcha died we saw Krillin lose it, Bulma crying, the cat passing out while here everyone's like "whatever".Another example is the Namakians, Gohan lost it when Dodoria killed the kid and old one so they didn't just react when their friends died.

[Amir]

No way a show can be ruined by 3 problems when the rest is really good.

Goten and Trunks transformed into SSJ's easily without anyone teaching it to them and without any trigger at all which is just as bad as Caulifla's SSJ transformations

No one even fights together in the saiyan arc other than that bit when Piccolo and Krillin put up resistence against Nappa.

Krillin and 18 vs that wolf guy or Kale and Caulifla vs Goku, Kunshi and Dyspo vs Hit, Magetta and Frost vs Vegeta,

Piccolo and Gohan vs the U6 Namekians.

TOP not only look better in terms of animation and choreography...

It's more unique with the variety of techniques shown and more tacticals.

You say the death of Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu had more emotions than the erasure of universe 9&10, which is just not true.

They've ruined this arc which in turn ruined the show although I'm still hopeful to see it improving in the next arc.

The difference is that everyone in-universe questioned it and were asking how they did it, everyone in Super acts like it's normal for her to pull off these forms and to give Blue Goku trouble.

And Goku and Piccolo against Raditz...and everyone against Vegeta which is pretty much the whole arc.

They were alright at best.

We didn't even see anything form it yet.

What choreography ? If you think this then you haven't seen Z or the original in awhile cause both put it to shame.

There's been nothing memorable apart from Goku's fight with Jerin.

Now I'm sure you haven't seen Z in awhile or simply in denial about the quality drop. When Yamcha died we saw Krillin lose it, Bulma crying, the cat passing out while here everyone's like "whatever".Another example is the Namakians, Gohan lost it when Dodoria killed the kid and old one so they didn't just react when their friends died.

No they haven't ruined this arc because of those 3 problems, it's only your own subjective observation. By that logic DBZ was ruined too because of it's flaws. I strongly disagree with this. Nothing ruined this arc yet. It only keeps getting better and more interesting.

Everyone questioned it? Only Goku and Vegeta did and they were their parents, regardless it doesn't make it any less bad than it was, and that's a fact. Cabba also was surprised that Caulifla could transform so easily and everyone else including Whis were really surprised and impressed with Caulifla and her potential, regardless, it was still bad. Your point is invalid. You are literally trying to come up with some bias excuses, at least that's how it seems.

Forgot Piccolo and Goku vs Raditz, this was the best teamwork in DBZ and one of the only examples for it in Z. And Super still has much more teamworks than this with this quality and even better quality. Goku vs Raditz was still very basic teamwork, it was intense as fuck as a fight, but teamwork wise, Super has much better. Much better.

Alright at best? Again, disagree completely. Better than the ones in Z for sure. Way more variety and complexity, genuinely more interesting. And it doesn't matter if we haven't seen anything from it yet. It's irrelevant.

Krillin vs Goku, Gohan and Piccolo vs Namekians of U6, Goku vs Caulifla and Kale, Goku vs Jiren, Goku vs Rebrihoe, Goku and Vegeta vs the trio dangerous, Vegeta vs Frost and Magetta, Gohan vs Lavender, Goku vs Bergamo, Hit vs Jiren, Hit vs Dyspo, Krillin and 18 vs the wolf guy, and more. Those fights did have looped animation, but at the same time they had a lot of good choreography parts. I watch clips from DBZ almost every day and my point still stands - most of the fights contain 80% of slow pacing, boring flurry punches and it's dragged the fuck out. I'm not even kidding. Z is where all the looped animation thing came from, the moments when we actually got some good martial arts choreographies were exeptional. Super has more movements and variety.

That's subjective at best and ridiculous at worst. Many moments in Super are memorable and epic.

I already explained that the death of certain characters in Z and the universes erasures are completely different scenarios. Did you expect people to start cry about the erasure of the universes when they have no connection to them anyways? Hell no, that would be forced and stupid. They reacted just as they should have. Also your point about Gohan reacting to the Namekians' slaughter is another invalid point. When the universes got erased, it was dark and quickly done, without any pain to the ones who got erased, so it makes a huge difference, the entire atmosphere was different. Those 2 examples are different and shouldn't be comparable. Gohan did react to Universe 10's erasure when he saw Obuni's family picture and thought about what just happened and it was done extremely well, I can't believe you would complain about such well made scenes.

[TheMikado]

Other than those 3 problems I think the rest is great.

This arc lives up to Z quality imo, it's on that level now.

Those 3 problems have completely ruined it for me. Yeah there are some good things like Roshi's episode but those problems completely overshadow what little good that's here.

I'm rewatching Z (Kai) now and it's not even close. I just finished the Saiyan arc and it puts this and everything else Super has to offer to shame. Even at its best, it still has nothing on the Saiyan arc. The writing, production, fighting, character interactions, teamwork, etc are on a whole other level. There's more teamwork in the saiyan arc then there is in a tournament that's supposed to revolve around it.

This is where we disagree. No way a show can be ruined by 3 problems when the rest is really good. Infact the only problem I find the worst is the first one with the focus on bad characters. The good elements in Super overshadow those 3 problems by a long shot to me. It's like me saying DBZ sucks because everything was really dragged out, there were plot holes and inconsistencies, Goten and Trunks transformed into SSJ's easily without anyone teaching it to them and without any trigger at all (which is just as bad as Caulifla's SSJ transformations btw) and characters were acting stupid constantly. There were way more flaws than that but if I list everything wrong with DBZ it would take 5 pages, the flaws in that show are almsot endless.

The saiyan arc didn't have better team work than this arc and certainly not more, not even close. No one even fights together in the saiyan arc other than that bit when Piccolo and Krillin put up resistence against Nappa. The rest was one on one fights while everyone else is watching. It wasn't anywhere near impressive as some of the teamwork in the TOP, like Krillin and 18 vs that wolf guy or Kale and Caulifla vs Goku, Kunshi and Dyspo vs Hit, Magetta and Frost vs Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan vs the U6 Namekians....not to mention strategic fights like Hit vs Dyspo and more. This is just not true. As for character interactions and fighting, I have to disagree on that one too, The fights in the TOP not only look better in terms of animation and choreography but are more unique with the variety of techniques shown and more tacticals. Overall, way more interesting to me. Character interactions in the TOP were pretty good just like in the saiyan arc, I have no idea why you would say it's on another level.

I don't think the tension is a problem with this arc, you say the death of Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu had more emotions than the erasure of universe 9&10, which is just not true. Completely different scenarios, in Z the ones who died were close friends, in here it's a universe being eliminated that none of the main cast or even the other universes give a shit about. They reacted just as they naturally should have, they were in shock, yet not sad about it and the ominous soundtrack helped a great deal too, honestly it's so absurd that you bring this scene of Super as a problem where in fact it was a perfectly well executed scene. I just don't get it. When people that don't like Super bring good scenes of Super and claim they were bad I don't know how to respond to it.

Yes a show ABSOLUTELY can be ruined by 3 problems depending on the theme of the piece.
For instance a romance anime which completely screws up the relationships such that they don't make sense is a failure and that's just one element.

The theme from the "Z" era onward has been about P-O-W-E-R. Even if you screw up most everything else you can't screw that up.
What is Jurrasic Park had terrible Dinosaurs?
The problem with Super is the things that have been staples of the franchise that they have pretty much always done right is role of power and its attainment.
This aspect created tension and questions about how the characters were going to get out of it.
Now if they need to get out of a situation they just pop a new form or technique and that's it. No build up to the technique or foreshadowing. They just can.

[Amir]

Those 3 problems have completely ruined it for me. Yeah there are some good things like Roshi's episode but those problems completely overshadow what little good that's here.

I'm rewatching Z (Kai) now and it's not even close. I just finished the Saiyan arc and it puts this and everything else Super has to offer to shame. Even at its best, it still has nothing on the Saiyan arc. The writing, production, fighting, character interactions, teamwork, etc are on a whole other level. There's more teamwork in the saiyan arc then there is in a tournament that's supposed to revolve around it.

This is where we disagree. No way a show can be ruined by 3 problems when the rest is really good. Infact the only problem I find the worst is the first one with the focus on bad characters. The good elements in Super overshadow those 3 problems by a long shot to me. It's like me saying DBZ sucks because everything was really dragged out, there were plot holes and inconsistencies, Goten and Trunks transformed into SSJ's easily without anyone teaching it to them and without any trigger at all (which is just as bad as Caulifla's SSJ transformations btw) and characters were acting stupid constantly. There were way more flaws than that but if I list everything wrong with DBZ it would take 5 pages, the flaws in that show are almsot endless.

The saiyan arc didn't have better team work than this arc and certainly not more, not even close. No one even fights together in the saiyan arc other than that bit when Piccolo and Krillin put up resistence against Nappa. The rest was one on one fights while everyone else is watching. It wasn't anywhere near impressive as some of the teamwork in the TOP, like Krillin and 18 vs that wolf guy or Kale and Caulifla vs Goku, Kunshi and Dyspo vs Hit, Magetta and Frost vs Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan vs the U6 Namekians....not to mention strategic fights like Hit vs Dyspo and more. This is just not true. As for character interactions and fighting, I have to disagree on that one too, The fights in the TOP not only look better in terms of animation and choreography but are more unique with the variety of techniques shown and more tacticals. Overall, way more interesting to me. Character interactions in the TOP were pretty good just like in the saiyan arc, I have no idea why you would say it's on another level.

I don't think the tension is a problem with this arc, you say the death of Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu had more emotions than the erasure of universe 9&10, which is just not true. Completely different scenarios, in Z the ones who died were close friends, in here it's a universe being eliminated that none of the main cast or even the other universes give a shit about. They reacted just as they naturally should have, they were in shock, yet not sad about it and the ominous soundtrack helped a great deal too, honestly it's so absurd that you bring this scene of Super as a problem where in fact it was a perfectly well executed scene. I just don't get it. When people that don't like Super bring good scenes of Super and claim they were bad I don't know how to respond to it.

Yes a show ABSOLUTELY can be ruined by 3 problems depending on the theme of the piece.
For instance a romance anime which completely screws up the relationships such that they don't make sense is a failure and that's just one element.

The theme from the "Z" era onward has been about P-O-W-E-R. Even if you screw up most everything else you can't screw that up.
What is Jurrasic Park had terrible Dinosaurs?
The problem with Super is the things that have been staples of the franchise that they have pretty much always done right is role of power and its attainment.
This aspect created tension and questions about how the characters were going to get out of it.

Yes, you are right. But the problems the Universal survival arc has are not bad enough to ruin the show even a little imo, not even close. An example of one big flaw that can ruin an entire arc would be what happened in the FT arc's ending. It made everything pointless. Or the asspulls, the asspulls in the FT arc were so bad that everything couldn't have been taken seriously anymore. The way to overcome the villain in a DB story is a very if not the most important plot point, and Super just gave Trunks bullshit power ups to win without any explanation, and it came out of nowhere and sucked badly. None of that happened in this arc. This arguably ruined the FT arc.

The power scaling may be bad at some points, but it's not that bad anymore, it's actually good at some instances. The worst things related to power scaling this arc has done so far were: 17's power boost and Kefla's base form overpowering SSJG, and that's it, but even then, It still had some explanations, other than that this arc is not that bad with the power scaling issues, at least not like the FT arc that came before it. Also even in Z, (Buu saga only) the power scaling was bad.

Now if they need to get out of a situation they just pop a new form or technique and that's it. No build up to the technique or foreshadowing. Theyust can.

Nothing like that happened in this arc so far, you just made this up. Give an example otherwise it's invalid.

[TheMikado]

This is where we disagree. No way a show can be ruined by 3 problems when the rest is really good. Infact the only problem I find the worst is the first one with the focus on bad characters. The good elements in Super overshadow those 3 problems by a long shot to me. It's like me saying DBZ sucks because everything was really dragged out, there were plot holes and inconsistencies, Goten and Trunks transformed into SSJ's easily without anyone teaching it to them and without any trigger at all (which is just as bad as Caulifla's SSJ transformations btw) and characters were acting stupid constantly. There were way more flaws than that but if I list everything wrong with DBZ it would take 5 pages, the flaws in that show are almsot endless.

The saiyan arc didn't have better team work than this arc and certainly not more, not even close. No one even fights together in the saiyan arc other than that bit when Piccolo and Krillin put up resistence against Nappa. The rest was one on one fights while everyone else is watching. It wasn't anywhere near impressive as some of the teamwork in the TOP, like Krillin and 18 vs that wolf guy or Kale and Caulifla vs Goku, Kunshi and Dyspo vs Hit, Magetta and Frost vs Vegeta, Piccolo and Gohan vs the U6 Namekians....not to mention strategic fights like Hit vs Dyspo and more. This is just not true. As for character interactions and fighting, I have to disagree on that one too, The fights in the TOP not only look better in terms of animation and choreography but are more unique with the variety of techniques shown and more tacticals. Overall, way more interesting to me. Character interactions in the TOP were pretty good just like in the saiyan arc, I have no idea why you would say it's on another level.

I don't think the tension is a problem with this arc, you say the death of Tenshinhan and Chiaotzu had more emotions than the erasure of universe 9&10, which is just not true. Completely different scenarios, in Z the ones who died were close friends, in here it's a universe being eliminated that none of the main cast or even the other universes give a shit about. They reacted just as they naturally should have, they were in shock, yet not sad about it and the ominous soundtrack helped a great deal too, honestly it's so absurd that you bring this scene of Super as a problem where in fact it was a perfectly well executed scene. I just don't get it. When people that don't like Super bring good scenes of Super and claim they were bad I don't know how to respond to it.

Yes a show ABSOLUTELY can be ruined by 3 problems depending on the theme of the piece.
For instance a romance anime which completely screws up the relationships such that they don't make sense is a failure and that's just one element.

The theme from the "Z" era onward has been about P-O-W-E-R. Even if you screw up most everything else you can't screw that up.
What is Jurrasic Park had terrible Dinosaurs?
The problem with Super is the things that have been staples of the franchise that they have pretty much always done right is role of power and its attainment.
This aspect created tension and questions about how the characters were going to get out of it.

Yes, you are right. But the problems the Universal survival arc has are not bad enough to ruin the show even a little imo, not even close. An example of one big flaw that can ruin an entire arc would be what happened in the FT arc's ending. It made everything pointless. Or the asspulls, the asspulls in the FT arc were so bad that everything couldn't have been taken seriously anymore. The way to overcome the villain in a DB story is a very if not the most important plot point, and Super just gave Trunks bullshit power ups to win without any explanation, and it came out of nowhere and sucked badly. None of that happened in this arc. This arguably ruined the FT arc.

The power scaling may be bad at some points, but it's not that bad anymore, it's actually good at some instances. The worst things related to power scaling this arc has done so far were: 17's power boost and Kefla's base form overpowering SSJG, and that's it, but even then, It still had some explanations, other than that this arc is not that bad with the power scaling issues, at least not like the FT arc that came before it. Also even in Z, (Buu saga only) the power scaling was bad.

Now if they need to get out of a situation they just pop a new form or technique and that's it. No build up to the technique or foreshadowing. Theyust can.

Nothing like that happened in this arc so far, you just made this up. Give an example otherwise it's invalid.

What is ruining the Universe Survival arc is the tension. The scale of potential destruction is beyond anything these characters have previously imagined. They have watched entire universe and people they have fought and talked to get erased casually before their eyes. Yet they continue as if its an ordinary tournament. The entire premise of this arc is that nearly everyone and everything could be destroyed and they seem to be having a good time and the gravity of the situation does not weigh heavy on every move they make. The thought and idea that 48 mins of intense fighting with determine the fate of their entire universe and everyone they love should be continuously weighing on these characters even in their very actions and movements. Let me put it to you this way. In the Frieza arc the characters were in a constant state of tension even when they were not in active battle. You saw it in their posture, in their voices. The characters demeanor reflected constant tension. It actually is exhausting to watch and in universe would be just as exhausting for the characters. I remember fondly being emotionally exhausted from the saiyan arc because we spend several episodes just trying to survive until Goku got there. That feeling is not there while the stakes are sooooo much dramatically higher.

[Lord Beerus]

I don't think there's any uphill battle that Super has to fight. The show is what it is and continues the trend of what we liked about Dragon Ball previously: Cool looking characters, fights that range from decent to great, the occasional funny episodes and subtle development of some characters.

How much mileage people get out of Super, especially compared to what some fans may have thought of what Z or DB gave us, will always vary. There are some people think some parts of Super are just as good as what the franchise has provided before. While others hold contempt towards for what it's introduced, regardless of its quality.

I'll be the first one to say that Super is a deeply flawed show in a narrative and production scale. But there are several episodes in the anime that I would rank as highlights of the franchise, in terms of writing, visuals or both criteria. I really like Dragon Ball Super warts and all. The same way I like Dragon Ball and Z, warts and all. No Dragon Ball anime is perfect. They all have problems. It's perfectly acceptable to level criticism against Super as it has many issues that should be addressed. And even some of those who may not care for the show at all would like to see it make improvements in the areas it should accordingly. As long as criticism is fair and rationale, any complaints towards the show should be welcomed.And what people classify as positive for the show, others may view as a negative, and vice versa.

Don't let the opinion of a couple dozen people on this forum, social media, YouTube comments or other fringe Dragon Ball communities, shift you personal stance or intrigue into what Super produces. Stand by your opinion. Don't be depressed about what others think of Dragon Ball Super. Be more concerned about what you think of Dragon Ball Super.

I don't know if you'll have to time to read it, but I did a little essay on what I think of Dragon Ball Super as a whole at this stage.

[Amir]

Yes a show ABSOLUTELY can be ruined by 3 problems depending on the theme of the piece.
For instance a romance anime which completely screws up the relationships such that they don't make sense is a failure and that's just one element.

The theme from the "Z" era onward has been about P-O-W-E-R. Even if you screw up most everything else you can't screw that up.
What is Jurrasic Park had terrible Dinosaurs?
The problem with Super is the things that have been staples of the franchise that they have pretty much always done right is role of power and its attainment.
This aspect created tension and questions about how the characters were going to get out of it.

Yes, you are right. But the problems the Universal survival arc has are not bad enough to ruin the show even a little imo, not even close. An example of one big flaw that can ruin an entire arc would be what happened in the FT arc's ending. It made everything pointless. Or the asspulls, the asspulls in the FT arc were so bad that everything couldn't have been taken seriously anymore. The way to overcome the villain in a DB story is a very if not the most important plot point, and Super just gave Trunks bullshit power ups to win without any explanation, and it came out of nowhere and sucked badly. None of that happened in this arc. This arguably ruined the FT arc.

The power scaling may be bad at some points, but it's not that bad anymore, it's actually good at some instances. The worst things related to power scaling this arc has done so far were: 17's power boost and Kefla's base form overpowering SSJG, and that's it, but even then, It still had some explanations, other than that this arc is not that bad with the power scaling issues, at least not like the FT arc that came before it. Also even in Z, (Buu saga only) the power scaling was bad.

Now if they need to get out of a situation they just pop a new form or technique and that's it. No build up to the technique or foreshadowing. Theyust can.

Nothing like that happened in this arc so far, you just made this up. Give an example otherwise it's invalid.

What is ruining the Universe Survival arc is the tension. The scale of potential destruction is beyond anything these characters have previously imagined. They have watched entire universe and people they have fought and talked to get erased casually before their eyes. Yet they continue as if its an ordinary tournament. The entire premise of this arc is that nearly everyone and everything could be destroyed and they seem to be having a good time and the gravity of the situation does not weigh heavy on every move they make. The thought and idea that 48 mins of intense fighting with determine the fate of their entire universe and everyone they love should be continuously weighing on these characters even in their very actions and movements. Let me put it to you this way. In the Frieza arc the characters were in a constant state of tension even when they were not in active battle. You saw it in their posture, in their voices. The characters demeanor reflected constant tension. It actually is exhausting to watch and in universe would be just as exhausting for the characters. I remember fondly being emotionally exhausted from the saiyan arc because we spend several episodes just trying to survive until Goku got there. That feeling is not there while the stakes are sooooo much dramatically higher.

So what if people have a good time, it's totally fine since those characters are usually saiyans, and fighting against top fighters in all the universes is joy to them. The rest don't seem to have a good time, they just fight. Also, like 17 said, if everything is erased at once nobody would get a chance to feel sorry about it. There is nothing wrong with everyone accepting the situation and continue to stay focused on the fights. The show doesn't have to remind us every second that universes' erasure is at stake.

I still think they do a good job of reminding us the stakes though, like Toppo's speech in the end of episode 104, when Hit lost, in episode 112 with Cabba and Vegeta, Hit's speech before going down and most importantly, when a universe gets erased.

I think it's good writing that everything seems so focused on the fights without fear and all until a universe gets destroyed and then all the characters realize the situation they are in for a brief moment, and then the fights continue until the next universe gets destroyed.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't have a problem with it.

[sintzu]

It's only your own subjective observation. By that logic DBZ was ruined too because of it's flaws.

Nothing ruined this arc yet. It only keeps getting better and more interesting.

Everyone questioned it? Only Goku and Vegeta did.

Did you expect people to start cry about the erasure of the universes when they have no connection to them anyways ?

Some people don't like Z because of how dragged out it was which is undrstandable.

Maybe for you but for me and others, it's a complete mess that not only ruined itself but the show as a whole. The reason this tournament holds enough weight to ruin the entire show is because of how long it is, by the time it's over in March and that's assuming April isn't full of filler episodes, that's at the very least 66 episodes (68-133). That's longer than some entire shows such as GT and Full Metal alchemist Brotherhood to name a few. And what's interesting about it ? all the new characters have the exact same personality which is to talk shit to who they're fighting with before losing, no one has anything that separates them from everyone else.

Goku, Vegeta, Goha, Chichi and I think Krillin when they transformed in the tournament but I'm not sure about that one.

I expected everyone and especially Goku to stop acting like it was a game.

Now if they need to get out of a situation they just pop a new form or technique and that's it. No build up to the technique or foreshadowing. Theyust can.

Nothing like that happened in this arc so far, you just made this up. Give an example otherwise it's invalid.

I think he's talking about Super in general which he's right about.

I remember fondly being emotionally exhausted from the saiyan arc because we spend several episodes just trying to survive until Goku got there. That feeling is not there while the stakes are sooooo much dramatically higher.

Even GT with all its flaws got the tension part right, at least during the Baby arc.

[Chuquita]

The character models.

Not even the animation, but the character models.

If Super were somehow allowed to regularly do what Takahashi did and utilize character designs that look closer to Z's, I think it would go a long way to getting people excited.

[Amir]

It's only your own subjective observation. By that logic DBZ was ruined too because of it's flaws.

Nothing ruined this arc yet. It only keeps getting better and more interesting.

Everyone questioned it? Only Goku and Vegeta did.

Did you expect people to start cry about the erasure of the universes when they have no connection to them anyways ?

Some people don't like Z because of how dragged out it was which is undrstandable.

Maybe for you but for me and others, it's a complete mess that not only ruined itself but the show as a whole. The reason this tournament holds enough weight to ruin the entire show is because of how long it is, by the time it's over in March and that's assuming April isn't full of filler episodes, that's at the very least 66 episodes (68-133). That's longer than some entire shows such as GT and Full Metal alchemist Brotherhood to name a few. And what's interesting about it ? all the new characters have the exact same personality which is to talk shit to who they're fighting with before losing, no one has anything that separates them from everyone else.

Goku, Vegeta, Goha, Chichi and I think Krillin when they transformed in the tournament but I'm not sure about that one.

I expected everyone and especially Goku to stop acting like it was a game.

Now if they need to get out of a situation they just pop a new form or technique and that's it. No build up to the technique or foreshadowing. Theyust can.

Nothing like that happened in this arc so far, you just made this up. Give an example otherwise it's invalid.

I think he's talking about Super in general which he's right about.

I remember fondly being emotionally exhausted from the saiyan arc because we spend several episodes just trying to survive until Goku got there. That feeling is not there while the stakes are sooooo much dramatically higher.

Even GT with all its flaws got the tension part right, at least during the Baby arc.

You did not just complain about the TOP being long when you have fights in Z that draggout for 20 episodes with stair downs and bad dialogue. The TOP may be long but it's full of action and interesting things. Why shouldn't it be long? The longer the better and more awesome stuff we get to see.
Long arc with good pacing is good, long arc with slow ass pacing like every DBZ saga is not good.
Did you want it end after 10 episodes when there are endless possibilities that can happen?

And no, not everyone in the TOP has the same personality, that's objectively not even close to the truth.
You telling me Hit and Basil are the same? Jiren and Toppo are the same? Dyspo and Goku are the same? Vegeta and Obuni are the same?

[Faisal Shourov]

Super will never be remembered as a quality show. Current top shonen Boku No Hero Academia absolutely trashes Super in terms of writing (it's not even comparable, they're lightyears apart). No matter what they do now or in future, Super will always remain a show for the masses with overall substandard writing. It might have been acceptable back in 80s and 90s, but people's standards have really changed. I can't pretend myself to believe Super is quality show, unfortunately I don't even enjoy it most of the time. I will still follow it out of my obligation to DB franchise which created my childhood and biggest part of nostalgia.

[sintzu]

Super will never be remembered as a quality show. Current top shonen Boku No Hero Academia absolutely trashes Super in terms of writing (it's not even comparable, they're lightyears apart).

It might have been acceptable back in 80s and 90s, but people's standards have really changed.

I will still follow it out of my obligation to DB franchise which created my childhood and biggest part of nostalgia.

Most anime don't have to do much to top it at this point.

If the original was like this then there's no way it would've taken off the way it did.

If I wasn't so invested in the franchise already I most likely would've dropped it as well. If this show didn't have the DB name it wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as it has.

You did not just complain about the TOP being long when you have fights in Z that draggout for 20 episodes with stair downs and bad dialogue.

The TOP may be long but it's full of action and interesting things.

Why shouldn't it be long? The longer the better and more awesome stuff we get to see.

Did you want it end after 10 episodes when there are endless possibilities that can happen?

You telling me Hit and Basil are the same? Jiren and Toppo are the same? Dyspo and Goku are the same? Vegeta and Obuni are the same?

I just said Z dragged and was enough for some to say it was terrable. That 20 episode fight was one of the worst things they did in the franchise. Thankfully Kai came along and fixed it as the fight itself is really good.

It's the most boring action I've seen.

That's the problem, there's nothing worth it taking all this time. None of the characters are memorable or interesting enough to spend all this time with.

Endless possibilities we've yet to see and at this point with characters like Hit out won't see.

Most of the new characters are the exact same bark no bite characters with little to no differences between them.

[Amir]

Super will never be remembered as a quality show. Current top shonen Boku No Hero Academia absolutely trashes Super in terms of writing (it's not even comparable, they're lightyears apart).

It might have been acceptable back in 80s and 90s, but people's standards have really changed.

I will still follow it out of my obligation to DB franchise which created my childhood and biggest part of nostalgia.

Most anime don't have to do much to top it at this point.

If the original was like this then there's no way it would've taken off the way it did.

If I wasn't so invested in the franchise already I most likely would've dropped it as well. If this show didn't have the DB name it wouldn't have lasted nearly as long as it has.

You did not just complain about the TOP being long when you have fights in Z that draggout for 20 episodes with stair downs and bad dialogue.

The TOP may be long but it's full of action and interesting things.

Why shouldn't it be long? The longer the better and more awesome stuff we get to see.

Did you want it end after 10 episodes when there are endless possibilities that can happen?

You telling me Hit and Basil are the same? Jiren and Toppo are the same? Dyspo and Goku are the same? Vegeta and Obuni are the same?

I just said Z dragged and was enough for some to say it was terrable. That 20 episode fight was one of the worst things they did in the franchise. Thankfully Kai came along and fixed it as the fight itself is really good.

It's the most boring action I've seen.

That's the problem, there's nothing worth it taking all this time. None of the characters are memorable or interesting enough to spend all this time with.

Endless possibilities we've yet to see and at this point with characters like Hit out won't see.

Most of the new characters are the exact same bark no bite characters with little to no differences between them.

Yes there is, the fodders may suck, but there are plenty of interesting characters besides the fodders.

We have seen some and we will see more. Hit getting eliminated was a letdown though.

I feel like there is no point to continue this because no matter how many times I explain my points you just don't care. I mean you ignored my last point about characters being different from each other.

a lot ofvwhat you say is objectively not true.

[GodVegetto91]

They need do only one thing..

Fix the powerscaling.

Seriously it couldn’t be THAT hard, now can it?