Assistance in understanding Kale/Kefla's forms

[ChiefWamsutta]

Alright, so I want to make sure I have this clear.


Super Saiyan Green (The muddy yellow-green colored hair). I feel like this should be a precursor to unlocking SSBerserker, or is it an incomplete version of the SSBerserker Controlled?

Super Saiyan Berserker. This makes sense.

Super Saiyan Berserker Controlled? This is just Berserker into an SS1 form, right? Or a full power Berserker?

Super Saiyan 2 Berserker Controlled? Super Saiyan Berserker Controlled 2? This seems to be the Super Saiyan 2 version of Kale's newest form before she fused with Caulifla.


I have no idea how to name them, or even how these 4 forms are related to one another. Maybe ... SSBerserker, Incomplete Legendary Super Saiyan, Legendary Super Saiyan, Legendary Super Saiyan 2?


Could I have some help understanding this, and what would be the most accurate names for them.

[Asura]

Kale has Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan Berserker. In the beginning of 114 she absorbs her Super Saiyan Berserker power into her normal SSJ power, also turning her hair green. She's still just SSJ now though, just with the power of Berserker.

Likewise, Kefla has this same SSJ form, but it's still just regular SSJ (since Berserker was absorbed into it previously thus turning her hair green). Then we see her go SSJ2.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Kale has Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan Berserker. In the beginning of 114 she absorbs her Super Saiyan Berserker power into her normal SSJ power, also turning her hair green. She's still just SSJ now though, just with the power of Berserker.

Likewise, Kefla has this same SSJ form, but it's still just regular SSJ (since Berserker was absorbed into it previously thus turning her hair green). Then we see her go SSJ2.

Okay, that really makes no sense to me. They treat it as though they are three different forms.

You can't really call Kale's Super Saiyan form that she unlocked in the episode with Kahseral just Super Saiyan. It's not the same SS1 that Goten, Trunks, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Cabba, and Caulifla have had.

[Asura]

Kale has Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan Berserker. In the beginning of 114 she absorbs her Super Saiyan Berserker power into her normal SSJ power, also turning her hair green. She's still just SSJ now though, just with the power of Berserker.

Likewise, Kefla has this same SSJ form, but it's still just regular SSJ (since Berserker was absorbed into it previously thus turning her hair green). Then we see her go SSJ2.

Okay, that really makes no sense to me. They treat it as though they are three different forms.

You can't really call Kale's Super Saiyan form that she unlocked in the episode with Kahseral just Super Saiyan. It's not the same SS1 that Goten, Trunks, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Cabba, and Caulifla have had.

Why do you think it's not the same SSJ as the others? And they don't treat it as three different forms, they commented multiple times in 115 that she's "Super Saiyan Kefla" and then in this one they comment that she goes Super Saiyan 2.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Kale has Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan Berserker. In the beginning of 114 she absorbs her Super Saiyan Berserker power into her normal SSJ power, also turning her hair green. She's still just SSJ now though, just with the power of Berserker.

Likewise, Kefla has this same SSJ form, but it's still just regular SSJ (since Berserker was absorbed into it previously thus turning her hair green). Then we see her go SSJ2.

Okay, that really makes no sense to me. They treat it as though they are three different forms.

You can't really call Kale's Super Saiyan form that she unlocked in the episode with Kahseral just Super Saiyan. It's not the same SS1 that Goten, Trunks, Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Cabba, and Caulifla have had.

Why do you think it's not the same SSJ as the others? And they don't treat it as three different forms, they commented multiple times in 115 that she's "Super Saiyan Kefla" and then in this one they comment that she goes Super Saiyan 2.

Why it's not the same? Because Kale's hair color and style were different from literally every other SS1 we have seen in the series. When Kale goes from Base to her SS1-thingy it gives a muddy yellow-green color that no other Super Saiyan 1 has ever had. She also gets far more muscle definition than any other SS1.

The green-haired SS1 form that happens right before Caulifla and Kale team up against Goku is not the same as Kale's other Super Saiyan 1. Nor is it the same as any other Super Saiyan 1 previous to Kale. You can't just say they are Super Saiyan. Trunks' Super Saiyan Rage was called Super Trunks, and even Super Saiyan. These are inaccurate terms. Just because a term is put out doesn't mean it makes sense for the form.

There is Super Saiyan 1 that Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Cabba, and Caulifla have. There are Super Saiyan ___ (which is the muddy yellow one Kale has) and Super Saiyan ___ (which is the green one she gets before fighting Goku with Cauifla in the recent episodes). I am trying to figure out what you would call these two forms.

[dbgtFO]

It's certainly not standard Super Saiyan, it makes her taller and bigger and the green hair of course. I'm sure the characters just call her Super Saiyan, because they have nothing better to call her and the lore might never get explored, but I think Vegeta was right, when he deemed it the origina form of Saiyans or whatever the hell it was.

But you have the the first level of Super Saiyan, then Berserker and then the mastered form of Berserker, that gives her body of the first level with the hair color of Berserker.
As for names eh I just call them Super Saiyan Proper, Super Saiyan Berserker and Super Saiyan Proper Berserker, lol.
Ok, but it would be nice, if they gave them some proper names..

[ChiefWamsutta]

It's certainly not standard Super Saiyan, it makes her taller and bigger and the green hair of course. I'm sure the characters just call her Super Saiyan, because they have nothing better to call her and the lore might never get explored, but I think Vegeta was right, when he deemed it the origina form of Saiyans or whatever the hell it was.

But you have the the first level of Super Saiyan, then Berserker and then the mastered form of Berserker, that gives her body of the first level with the hair color of Berserker.
As for names eh I just call them Super Saiyan Proper, Super Saiyan Berserker and Super Saiyan Proper Berserker, lol.
Ok, but it would be nice, if they gave them some proper names..

Thank you so much! I have been having trouble communicating to people of the dbz subreddit and here what I was trying to say (Honestly, you have no idea how many people don't understand what I have been trying to say. I am so relieved you deciphered what I meant).

Obviously the Super Saiyan 1 form of Goku/Vegeta/Gohan/Goten/Trunks/Future Trunks/Future Gohan/Cabba/Caulifla are all the same. Kale's version of Super Saiyan 1 (unlocked during the Cocotte Zone) has a muddier yellow-green hair color and more muscle than normal. I really like the name Super Saiyan Proper. It describes the form a lot better than what I have been calling it: Super Saiyan Green. SSProper is an accurate term for what the form truly is, just like SSRage describes Trunks' form better than calling it SS2.

So, if we include the new form from Episode 116, it would be SSProper, then you unlock SSBerserker, then SSProper Berserker, then SSProper 2 Berserker? Haha, I'm not sure where to put the 2 in that name.

[Saturnine]

The SSj form Kale got when breaking out of Cocotte Zone is her proper, plain SSj form. Though obviously it isn't just a regular SSj form like all the other Saiyans have, if only for the fact that it makes her taller and more muscular with her hair color being a colder shade of yellow. I just call it Kale's Super Saiyan for now, not to make any needless assumptions.

Berserker is Berserker, well obviously

And then we get the ultimate form, where Kale looks jike in her Super Saiyan form, but with the hair green as in Berserker. It's even stronger than Berserker and what's more, Kale will never lapse into Berserker again, since she now has full control over this power. Let's call this form True SSj for lack of a better term right now. We don't know whether Kale can still transform into her regular SSj form, but there's not much reason to believe she can't - since previously she could maintain the distinction between SSj and Berserker.

So I think that while for regular Saiyans it's SSj -> SSj2, for Kale it's SSj -> True SSj -> True SSj2. We'll just have to wait to see her achieve the advanced levels of SSj and beyond. She's already above SSj3 Goku level in her True SSj form, so with SSj2 or 3 she'd be pretty much the strongest Saiyan in those levels of the transformation. We also don't know how strong she's in base, so it's possible that her SSj forms have inherently larger boosts to compensate for her smaller base prowess. Still, in her regular SSj she seems on par with SSj2 Caulifla. Pretty darn impressive actually.

[Asura]

I don't think there's a specific reason for why Kale gets bigger and more muscular when she transforms. I don't think it's some new Super Saiyan form, it's just how she goes SSJ. Just like Kid Goku turns into an adult when he goes SSJ4.

TOEI is fucking horrendous at explaining shit so this shouldn't be a surprise. They wanted to make Kale unique from the beginning with her bullshit Broly form and so they just continued to make her unique without explaining why.

People always try and wrap their heads around how unexplained things work, trying to think of whatever they can to have things make sense, but the truth of the matter is TOEI never intended for it to make sense. They just do cool flashy unexplained shit now like they did with SSJ Rage and provide no further explanation. As long as it looks cool and it's different then TOEI does whatever the hell they want.

[Xeogran]

Broly

I'm actually surprised it took that long for his name to appear in this topic

[ChiefWamsutta]

The SSj form Kale got when breaking out of Cocotte Zone is her proper, plain SSj form. Though obviously it isn't just a regular SSj form like all the other Saiyans have, if only for the fact that it makes her taller and more muscular with her hair color being a colder shade of yellow. I just call it Kale's Super Saiyan for now, not to make any needless assumptions.

I 100% agree with you. It is Kale's version of Super Saiyan 1, but is not the same as the one Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Cabba, Caulifla, etc. have.

dbgtFO calls it Super Saiyan Proper because of Vegeta's comment that it may be the true version of a Super Saiyan. I really like the name, since we will probably not get another one.

Berserker is Berserker, well obviously

Yep, I agree with you on this as well. I see it as though Super Saiyan Berserker is the next iteration after Kale's Super Saiyan.

And then we get the ultimate form, where Kale looks jike in her Super Saiyan form, but with the hair green as in Berserker. It's even stronger than Berserker and what's more, Kale will never lapse into Berserker again, since she now has full control over this power. Let's call this form True SSj for lack of a better term right now. We don't know whether Kale can still transform into her regular SSj form, but there's not much reason to believe she can't - since previously she could maintain the distinction between SSj and Berserker.

dbgtFO called this one Super Saiyan Proper Berserker to describe how it combines the green hair of SSBerserker and the height, muscles, and eyes of Kale's Super Saiyan. It does feel like the two previous forms were merged together, hence the naming of it.

So I think that while for regular Saiyans it's SSj -> SSj2, for Kale it's SSj -> True SSj -> True SSj2. We'll just have to wait to see her achieve the advanced levels of SSj and beyond. She's already above SSj3 Goku level in her True SSj form, so with SSj2 or 3 she'd be pretty much the strongest Saiyan in those levels of the transformation. We also don't know how strong she's in base, so it's possible that her SSj forms have inherently larger boosts to compensate for her smaller base prowess. Still, in her regular SSj she seems on par with SSj2 Caulifla. Pretty darn impressive actually.

Yeah, the Super Saiyan version of Kale seems to be above SS2 Caulifla. I would say the forms give a bigger boost than usual.

Like this: SS1 Boost < SS2 Boost < Kale's SS1 Boost < SSBerserker Boost < SS3 Boost < True SS1 Boost < True SS2 Boost.

Considering Kefla unlocked the True SS2 version, I think Kale would be able to do the same.

Kale's forms would go in a linear fashion: Kale's SS1, then SSBerserker, then True SS1, then True SS2.
How do these names sound: Super Saiyan Proper, then Super Saiyan Berserker, then Super Saiyan Proper Berserker, then Super Saiyan 2 Proper Berserker?

[Speedster]

Kale’s forms with increasing power order are:
(a) Electric-yellow USSJ (episode 101, middle of episode 113)
(b) Uncontrolled Greenish SSJ Berserk (episode 100, 101, end of 113/start of 114)
(c) “Controlled” Greenish SSJ Berserk (episode 101)
(d) Greenish USSJ with controlled power of SSJ Berserk (episode 114)
Note that the designs of forms (a) and (d), though very similar, are ever so slightly different in hair colour and style.

Kefla’s Super Saiyan is a combination of Kale’s and Caulifla's final Super Saiyan forms. Super Saiyan Kefla has the greenish hair colour and style of Kale’s Greenish USSJ, but she isn’t as buffed as Greenish USSJ Kale, instead she’s leaner closer to SSJ2 Caulifla. So I would call Kefla's forms as:
(e) Greenish FPSSJ1.
(f) Greenish SSJ2.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Kale’s forms with increasing power order are:
(a) Electric-yellow USSJ (episode 101, middle of episode 113)
(b) Uncontrolled Greenish SSJ Berserk (episode 100, 101, end of 113/start of 114)
(c) “Controlled” Greenish SSJ Berserk (episode 101)
(d) Greenish USSJ with controlled power of SSJ Berserk (episode 114)
Note that the designs of forms (a) and (d), though very similar, are ever so slightly different in hair colour and style.

Kefla’s Super Saiyan is a combination of Kale’s and Caulifla's final Super Saiyan forms. Super Saiyan Kefla has the greenish hair colour and style of Kale’s Greenish USSJ, but she isn’t as buffed as Greenish USSJ Kale, instead she’s leaner closer to SSJ2 Caulifla. So I would call Kefla's forms as:
(e) Greenish FPSSJ1.
(f) Greenish SSJ2.

So wait ... are you saying that Kefla's forms were not Kale's new form from Ep. 114 and the SS2 version of that?

You're saying Kefla's forms would be two entirely new forms from Kale's and Caulifla's forms?

[ChiefWamsutta]

Kale’s forms with increasing power order are:
(a) Electric-yellow USSJ (episode 101, middle of episode 113)
(b) Uncontrolled Greenish SSJ Berserk (episode 100, 101, end of 113/start of 114)
(c) “Controlled” Greenish SSJ Berserk (episode 101)
(d) Greenish USSJ with controlled power of SSJ Berserk (episode 114)
Note that the designs of forms (a) and (d), though very similar, are ever so slightly different in hair colour and style.

Kefla’s Super Saiyan is a combination of Kale’s and Caulifla's final Super Saiyan forms. Super Saiyan Kefla has the greenish hair colour and style of Kale’s Greenish USSJ, but she isn’t as buffed as Greenish USSJ Kale, instead she’s leaner closer to SSJ2 Caulifla. So I would call Kefla's forms as:
(e) Greenish FPSSJ1.
(f) Greenish SSJ2.

So wait ... are you saying that Kefla's forms were not Kale's new form from Ep. 114 and the SS2 version of that?

You're saying Kefla's forms would be two entirely new forms from Kale's and Caulifla's forms?

Okay, so ... if you were to give entries a - f explicit names how does this sound?

a) Super Saiyan Proper
b) Super Saiyan Berserker Uncontrolled
c) Super Saiyan Berserker Controlled
d) Super Saiyan Legend
e) Super Saiyan Green Full Power
f) Super Saiyan Green 2

This would result in only 5 forms that have different physical features, right?

(I didn't know what to call A or D. I chose "Legend" because this isn't the Legendary Super Saiyan, as that is Broly's form, but it is similar enough. I chose "Proper" because it was implied to have control over the energy is a perfect way. The word "Proper" ties it closer to Super Saiyan 1 than Berserker, which I felt was more fitting)

[BrolyKale]

Its Kefla Super Saiyan with green hair, nothing hard to understand. Its not even "Super Saiyan Legend" or "controlled Super Saiyan" or w/e, its just Super Saiyan, even in DBHeroes her name is just Kefla Super Saiyan. That's official.

[Meshack]

Kale’s and Kefla’s Super Saiyan forms are the legendary Super Saiyan form. Vegeta thinks it’s what the Saiyans are supppse to look like. Vegeta never saw the original Super Saiyan form so Kale’s version of Super Saiyan is most likely the legendary form since they want to play her off as Broly. I guess you can say the golden form is some weird mutation or is only unlocked through the back thing.

The “Berserker” Super Saiyan thing is just Kale’s Super Saiyan or Kale using her power without any control. The slimmed down version is just her normal Super Saiyan. I doubt we’ll see another name for Kale’s berserker state and her Super Saiyan.

[Speedster]

Okay, so ... if you were to give entries a - f explicit names how does this sound?

Not sure if there is much point in properly naming them as we won't be seeing most of them again. Kale’s original transformation in episode 100, is the Broly-style legendary Super Saiyan form which the show referred to as “Berserk” and which Vegeta thought must be the true/proper Super Saiyan transformation. Later in episode 101, against the pride troopers, Kale transformed into her own leaner but weaker SSJ form, which she could however control. Then in the same episode she went berserk again but it was stated that this time she had that “ultra-super power completely under control”. Later, in episode 113 against Goku, she turns into her own Super Saiyan again and then powers up to berserk uncontrollably but after Caulifla talks to her she transforms into a new Super Saiyan form which is as lean as her weaker SSJ form but more powerful than her berserk form. After that there is Kefla, who is the combination of Kale and Caulifla and has her own SSJ1 and SSJ2 forms as she combines elements from the SSJ forms of both Kale and Caulifla.

By the way I do feel the need to point out that when Kale and Caulifla fused it is implied that they did so as Super Saiyans (we are not shown otherwise). In the original manga, when Goku asked, Elder Kaioshin advised against fusing as Super Saiyans:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P1.3
Context: Goku asks if he should become a Super Saiyan before merging with the Potara, and Elder Kaioshin advices against it
Elder Kaioshin: “If you’re going to become a Super Saiyan, it’s better to do it after merging. But anyway, even without doing that, you’ll probably be plee~~eenty. The Potara’s power is just that amazing!”

Still Kefla emerged from the fusion in base form.

[Saturnine]

Kefla’s Super Saiyan is a combination of Kale’s and Caulifla's final Super Saiyan forms. Super Saiyan Kefla has the greenish hair colour and style of Kale’s Greenish USSJ, but she isn’t as buffed as Greenish USSJ Kale, instead she’s leaner closer to SSJ2 Caulifla. So I would call Kefla's forms as:
(e) Greenish FPSSJ1.
(f) Greenish SSJ2.

The musculature on Kefla increases just as it did on Kale in fact. Kale's form (a) and (d) by your nomenclature do significantly raise her musculature tone, alongside her height - with Kefla it's just the musculature, but the height seems to remain unchanged - that's the only difference. Caulifla's SSj2 form gives her no musculature increase at all, her arms still look like matchsticks in that form. Only Grade 3 increased Caulifla's musculature (totally over the top btw).

I'm not sure if calling Kale's form (a) and (d) "USSJ" is proper, or a good idea. The musculature is in no way cumbersome and Kale/Kefla just become athletic, compared to their base forms where they are drawn with no muscle definition whatsoever.

[TheShadowEmperor8055]

Alright, so I want to make sure I have this clear.


Super Saiyan Green (The muddy yellow-green colored hair). I feel like this should be a precursor to unlocking SSBerserker, or is it an incomplete version of the SSBerserker Controlled?

Super Saiyan Berserker. This makes sense.

Super Saiyan Berserker Controlled? This is just Berserker into an SS1 form, right? Or a full power Berserker?

Super Saiyan 2 Berserker Controlled? Super Saiyan Berserker Controlled 2? This seems to be the Super Saiyan 2 version of Kale's newest form before she fused with Caulifla.


I have no idea how to name them, or even how these 4 forms are related to one another. Maybe ... SSBerserker, Incomplete Legendary Super Saiyan, Legendary Super Saiyan, Legendary Super Saiyan 2?


Could I have some help understanding this, and what would be the most accurate names for them.

Kale is a weird Saiyan by all accounts with her unique transformations.

* Super Saiyan Green. -> I think this is just her unique SS form, as Kafla also had green hair because Kale, but Kafla's form was still called "Super Saiyan" nonetheless. At least this SS is the most Kale can control before losing it with SS Berserker.
* SS Berserker. You're right, it makes sense.
* SS Berserker Controlled and SS 2 Berserker Controlled - I think these are actually the same exact form, as it's stated to be SS Berserker under full control. The bio-electricity that later appears also gives off the hint of SS2, so I get where you're coming from with "the Super Saiyan 2 version of Kale's newest form" but SS Berserker also had bio-electricity (beginning of episode 114 for proof) and there's no "SS2 Berserker 2" on your list.

So I think there's three forms, not four - Kale's unique SS form, SS Berserker, and then SS Berserker under full control. The bio-electricity for full control is there because SS Berserker also had it. At least that's what I think.

EDIT: My opinion, but in essence, Kale now has SS Green as her "Super Saiyan" form and SS Berserker Controlled as her "Super Saiyan 2" form.

But again, Kale is a weird and confusing case of a Saiyan's transformations.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Okay, so ... if you were to give entries a - f explicit names how does this sound?

Not sure if there is much point in properly naming them as we won't be seeing most of them again.

That is so weird ... they should not be fusing when they were Super Saiyans. ... Hmmmmm, well, the only thing I can think of is that they powered-down and fused. It does not look that way though, but we never saw them fuse, so it could work.

I am naming the forms because I am creating a Saiyan Transformation Tree with drawings of each form and each name.

Super Saiyan Berserker Uncontrolled and Super Saiyan Berserker Controlled are easy to give names. The forms Kefla has could be called Super Saiyan Green and Super Saiyan 2 Green -- not too difficult to imagine as names.

I was not sure what to call Kale's Super Saiyan form and her most recent form. I went with Super Saiyan Proper and Super Saiyan Legend. They don't have official names and I never like really long, wordy descriptions for forms i.e. Super Saiyan Proper Berserker to describe Kale's newest form.

So I think there's three forms, not four - Kale's unique SS form, SS Berserker, and then SS Berserker under full control. The bio-electricity for full control is there because SS Berserker also had it. At least that's what I think.

EDIT: My opinion, but in essence, Kale now has SS Green as her "Super Saiyan" form and SS Berserker Controlled as her "Super Saiyan 2" form.

But again, Kale is a weird and confusing case of a Saiyan's transformations.

You are totally right on this. I noticed the electrical discharge that SSBerserker had and the discharge from Kale's newest form. It was never treated as though Kale had advanced up to a Super Saiyan Berserker Controlled 2 or to a Super Saiyan Berserker 2.

I agree with you. Kale has three forms.

Now, I was also trying to figure out Kefla's forms. It seems she has Base, Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan 2. This is far more clear. That might mean there are 5 "green" forms.

I have been trying to name all five and came up with the following: Super Saiyan Proper for Kale's unique Super Saiyan; Super Saiyan Berserker that's obvious; Super Saiyan Legend would be Kale's newest form (I chose this as it pays homage to Legendary Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan Berserker Controlled could describe the Berserker form at a few different moments. I also don't like long names for forms). Kefla's forms could be Super Saiyan Green and Super Saiyan 2 Green, as I am not sure what else to call them.