If Android 18's beat-down of Vegeta happened today.

[Kaiosama]

What a beautiful sight.

Man I was really hoping for Ribrianne to body Geets, but this was a nice alternative.

[MR.Mark]

Toriyama was never a huge Vegeta fan to begin with, can we suggest him being resurrected after Freeza killing him was fan service or is that sacrilegious?

Cuz, you know, no Vegeta= NO SSJ Trunks or Vegeta

Nah, I'm sure Vegeta being a whiny intolerable asshole for the entirety of the Cell arc was so compelling it was the story Toriyama just had to put to paper.

[Swifticuffs]

I am in no way shape or form a feminist, and I'm pretty sure this would be fine. First of all, it's only a matter of a few episodes before Vegeta outright surpasses her. Second of all, 17 is on par if not stronger, so it's not like she's totally random (there's some story, and another character on her level). Third, she's pretty cool, just like Videl was (sadly, they ruined her).

So yeah, can we stop trying to start a third wave war on a message board meant for people to have fun and discuss a series we all love and have in common? It really seems to be completely defeating the purpose.

[Swifticuffs]

How so ? Vegeta after being revived by Dende might've been on 3rd form Freeza's level so why wouldn't 4 years of hard training be enough to reach it ? What was said on Namek that goes against it ? Goku reached it through anger and having a high power level, same thing as Vegeta.

At least he didn't reach it by getting a "tingly" back.

The whole crux of how the Super Saiyan transformation could be achieved during the Namek/Freeza arc automatically disqualified Vegeta from attaining it because he was an evil bastard with diabolical intentions. Then several chapters later he attain because he's evil bastard with diabolical intentions.

"A warrior with a pure heart, awakened by rage," is the description Goku and King Kai give Super Saiyan and even Freeza says this is why Vegeta never managed to become one.

Then Vegeta becomes a SSJ with the justification that boils down to, in his own words, "Well, yeah, my heart is pure. Pure evil that is."

Toriyama horribly backtracked on his intended symbolical narrative in the Freeza arc and practically handed Vegeta the Super Saiyan form just so that he wouldn't fall behind.

It was a garbage asspull. Vegeta should have stayed dead and should never have gotten SSJ. It was bad writing. Giving Vegeta UI just so he doesn't fall behind would be inexcusable in this arc.

They wanted the series to continue for $$$. Can you blame them? DB was supposed to end after ever major arc, right? Freeza, Cell, Buu.... heck even GT right?

[sintzu]

How so ? Vegeta after being revived by Dende might've been on 3rd form Freeza's level so why wouldn't 4 years of hard training be enough to reach it ? What was said on Namek that goes against it ? Goku reached it through anger and having a high power level, same thing as Vegeta.

At least he didn't reach it by getting a "tingly" back.

The whole crux of how the Super Saiyan transformation could be achieved during the Namek/Freeza arc automatically disqualified Vegeta from attaining it because he was an evil bastard with diabolical intentions. Then several chapters later he attain because he's evil bastard with diabolical intentions.

"A warrior with a pure heart, awakened by rage," is the description Goku and King Kai give Super Saiyan and even Freeza says this is why Vegeta never managed to become one.

Then Vegeta becomes a SSJ with the justification that boils down to, in his own words, "Well, yeah, my heart is pure. Pure evil that is."

Toriyama horribly backtracked on his intended symbolical narrative in the Freeza arc and practically handed Vegeta the Super Saiyan form just so that he wouldn't fall behind.

It was a garbage asspull. Vegeta should have stayed dead and should never have gotten SSJ. It was bad writing. Giving Vegeta UI just so he doesn't fall behind would be inexcusable in this arc.

Db without vegeta would be like life without pizza.

[MR.Mark]

Popularity and $$$ definitely influenced Toriyama to go on aslong as he did. Let's be real here, he ended the manga because he was burned out, not because it was organically the perfect point to end the series.

Now with Super existing, Goku can fly off with Uub to another universe to train him, just another arc in the series.

[sintzu]

They wanted the series to continue for $$$. Can you blame them? DB was supposed to end after ever major arc, right?

It was supposed to end after the 1st arc and Baba's tournament (the 10th volume, wheather or not it would've been that tournament had it ended is anyone's guess). He did say that he gave them Z for the anime's name change to let people know it wasn't going to go on for much longer and he said he had Namek in mind during the 23rd Tenkaichi arc so MAYBE he was planning on ending it there but keep in mind that there's nothing that says that anywhere.

Popularity and $$$ definitely influenced Toriyama to go on aslong as he did. Let's be real here, he ended the manga because he was burned out, not because it was organically the perfect point to end the series.

$$$ is the main goal for everything in life so had DB been a flop of course he would've ended it a lot earlier but unlike other artists, he made the $$$ his way with having Goku grow up as an example of that.

Although there is probably truth to what you're saying, he did say in an interview that he ended it there because he thought Goku couldn't get that much stronger. He might've thought that going above what was established in the Buu arc would've made things too crazy even for DB which is what we're seeing now so he wasn't far off if that's what he thought.

[MR.Mark]

None of what has happened in Super so far is any less believable than things that happen in the Buu arc, so to me it feels like a natural evolution of the series merging the fighting and gag manga togehter. Which is why I find GT so fucking boring in comparison, on top of it's terrible designs and bad execution of some good ideas.

Toriyama did things his way, but he did so with some fan influence and editor suggestions along the way. If anything Toriyama is even more of the boss of Dragon Ball because he gives plot outlines and let's everyone else do the grunt work.

[TheMikado]

Yes, being aware it was made in another time period gives the observer a different perspective than it would've had it come out presently- but that's not the purpose of this thread. This is about how a story element would've been received today, not how today's fans view the scene that came out a long time ago. It's existence is already cemented in the collective consciousness of the fandom, whereas new and fresh things get discussed and picked apart far more vehemently and they are done so through opinions influenced by the present day mentality.

But you are basising this on a fundamental belief that the fandom is different when fans have been the same throughout history and technology has only magnified this perception that’s all. Again the idea that the story elements would not categorically be well received in the present day has already proven false with Kai receiving record numbers on the Kai release on nick toons and in the sub 18 bracket would primarily be seeing story elements for he first time. The idea that it would be some result of public opinion of Z would go against the success of GT in this time frame as well. We have BOTH past and present examples of Z releasing to new audiences and their reactions to those story elements.

In fact we even have this.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-U15QEbKFN0

The point is Z is continually re-released to new audiences and the best we can do here is fabricate some rather actually finding examples of people experiencing DBZ for the first time recently. We have actual scenarios that mirror what this thread wants to accomplish yet those examples are being ignored as if they don’t exist in favor of some attempt at people easing a insecurity of a show they like not being particularly good.

Fans have been the same throughout the ages? I am sorry, but I am going to have to strongly disagree with you there. Granted, it depends how far back you go, but even ten years is enough to make a difference.

Let's look at this way: did anybody complain about a feminist agenda back when 18 vs. Vegeta first aired? That is a type of discussion that has become commonplace in today's social landscape sadly, but was that the case back then? That is the point of the thread, not about how well DB's popularity has held up over the years. There's plenty about it that can resound with future generations, but that doesn't meant that certain story elements would've been received far differently today.

I'm sorry, as well as Kai did, it has not reached anywhere near the popularity DBZ did in it's heyday, both in Japan and anywhere else. Kai's success also was in great deal due to Dragon Ball's overall fame.

Fans have had similar criticisms of works through the ages even of very popular works. Further the idea that anti feminist ideas and movements are unique is incredibly myopic in scope. This is absolutely nothing new and claiming those reactions are due to anti feminism rather than a criticism of being genuinely poorly implemented strips the concept of 18 on merit. In a era of arguably higher anti feminist sentiments 18 managed to avoid a predominantly negative backlash by being a well implemented character who contributed more than just being a female Android.

The history of feminism shows these sentiments as nothing new and and it’s our hubris to believe we are uniquely in a time and environment making it tougher for female characters to be successful. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifeminism

As to Kai, again this is preposterous. It’s like complaining that Dickens isn’t on the best seller list despite his works being over 100 years old. The fact is Kai and GT broke records on their release when aired 20 years later while having the same story elements that people are trying to claim people today would react negatively to.

The fact I’d be matter is there is far far far more evidence to support the notion that Z when released today would still be positively received. Even the story elements that are attempted to be critized here are not widespread critiques by the audience. Like I said there is evidence which sits contrary to purpose if he thread much more so than imaginary complaints concocted in posters minds which looks even more preposterous on the face of Zs rerelease and ratings being consistently exceptional.

[julianix]

Would fan's nerd rage nearly as hard as they do with anything that involves Kale, Cauliflua, or Kelfa?

Not at all. When 17 and 18 came up they had a huge back story with trunks. There was legit character hype. Plus that ads whoopin was done the right way. And it's not like Vegeta went down without a fight.

The pos that happens in super is just beyond ridiculous...if some power puff girl came out in the namek saga whoopin ass everyone would of been on suicide watch...you know in those days the series was a bit serious. People actually died.

[MR.Mark]

Meanwhile a magical bubblegum child was sealed away and a God of creation and destruction were off slacking on there jobs while a scientist on earth made two teen cyborgs with power rivaling an androgynous alien land shark with a 140 million battle power that was fighting a golden haired alien that used to also be a were monkey.

I miss when Dragon Ball was serious too.

[Dbzfan94]

Haven't we had enough threads like this?

[BWri]

It may be unfair but villains are generally treated differently. Why would anyone create a villain weaker than the protagonists?

It's the same reason no-one gets angry about Jiren. Granted he isn't a villain but more of a final boss type.

What's also different is that the Androids were hyped up as a big threat all along. Kale and Caulifla, not so much. They were like lower (Kale) and mid level (Caulifla) shonen protagonists that needed to build up to top tier levels except they were treated like Ichigo Kurosaki on steroids except Ichigo Kurosaki was already a shonen MC whose progressio was on steroids so they were hundred of times worse by comparison and thusly poorly written and thusly hated by a wide swathe of the fandom. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that one of these things is not like the other and #18 has been represented far better all along. I personally never questioned her power and reveled in her overwhleming power against Vegeta. It was truly one of Dragon Ball's most iconic moments when she broke his arm.

[Soppa Saia People]

Haven't we had enough threads like this?

Tbh I'd take this kind of thread over the threads where it's just people getting heated over super.

[Kaboom]

That’s rich coming from the guy I scared out of his own thread lol

Lol I'm not scared. I just didnt want to deal with your thick head which doesnt want to take in anything

Chiming in a bit late here... but I want to make sure everyone understands that this is not how we address each other on Kanzenshuu. That goes as a verbal warning specifically for these two folks and general advice for everyone else.

[Michsi]

Fans have had similar criticisms of works through the ages even of very popular works. Further the idea that anti feminist ideas and movements are unique is incredibly myopic in scope. This is absolutely nothing new and claiming those reactions are due to anti feminism rather than a criticism of being genuinely poorly implemented strips the concept of 18 on merit. In a era of arguably higher anti feminist sentiments 18 managed to avoid a predominantly negative backlash by being a well implemented character who contributed more than just being a female Android.

The history of feminism shows these sentiments as nothing new and and it’s our hubris to believe we are uniquely in a time and environment making it tougher for female characters to be successful. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifeminism.

I am very well aware that the debate has been going on for far longer than when Z firs aired. Again, that was not the point. We're not going into an ideological debate here or discussing the history or struggles of feminism over time- that's swerving the discussion into a direction away from the topic of the thread ; we're talking about how certain elements resonate differently with different generations. The internet and social media has altered the fandom landscape pretty thoroughly, and this heated discussion about catering to certain groups is one of the most prevalent ideas you see talked about.

Of course there is a lot that would overlap, we're not talking about generations 70 years apart here, but to say that the fandom today is not at all any different that what it was in late 90's and early 00's is erroneous imo.

The fact I’d be matter is there is far far far more evidence to support the notion that Z when released today would still be positively received. .

Like what? We have empirical evidence that Kai didn't do as well as Z, and in fact, didn't even make it to the end until years later. What records were broken?
I am genuinely asking

[Faisal Shourov]

There would be a lot of rage alright. Android 18 is just a modified human while Vegeta is a hardworking Saiyan prince. Not to mention some people will blame it on feminism lol (Japan doesn't care about that nonsense, but people find conspiracy everywhere)

[TheMikado]

The fact I’d be matter is there is far far far more evidence to support the notion that Z when released today would still be positively received. .

Like what? We have empirical evidence that Kai didn't do as well as Z, and in fact, didn't even make it to the end until years later. What records were broken?
I am genuinely asking

Why is are comparing kai to Z? Its a different time and era. Television choice & streaming services were not even available during that time period.

Anyway there's even a thread for it.
viewtopic.php?t=13472

"Dragon Ball Z Kai" Set Records On Nicktoons
Nicktoons also posted its highest-rated and most-watched May with total viewers (+18%), K6-11 (+33% in rating), B6-11 (+27% in delivery), T9-14 (+32% in delivery) and B9-14 (+25% in rating). Nicktoons record-setting performance was driven by the premiere of Dragon Ball Z Kai(Monday, May 24, 8–9 p.m. ET), which set a new record as the highest-rated series premiere in the network’s history with total viewers, T9-14 and B9-14.

We even have Z Kai outperforming Super's all-time high of 1.5.
http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/daily- ... y-30-2016/
DRAGON BALL Z KAI ADULT SWIM 11:30 PM 1,666 0.7

Again. We have empirical evidence that these same plot lines are well received by modern audiences. There is no need to fabricate scenarios because these scenarios already exist. Complaining that DBZ which first ran in 1989 and still breaks record against its modern peers, is not doing as well as its original run is a bizarre argument.

Further we even have this from the Nielson TV ratings back at 2002 (or 2001):

September - Dragon Ball Z Number One on all cable TV.
* Dragon Ball Z was the #1 program of the week on all cable television
with tweens 9-14, boys 9-14, and men 12-24.
* The Wednesday, Monday and Tuesday telecasts of Dragon Ball Z
ranked as the top 3 programs in all of television - broadcast or cable -
for delivery of boys 9-14. (The closest competitor was CBS' Survivor
Thailand.)

I certainly don't have all the numbers. But there is enough information out there to see how popular Z has been on repeated re-airings and re-releases for new generations. Trying to argue otherwise goes against all empirical evidence.

[Michsi]

The fact I’d be matter is there is far far far more evidence to support the notion that Z when released today would still be positively received. .

Like what? We have empirical evidence that Kai didn't do as well as Z, and in fact, didn't even make it to the end until years later. What records were broken?
I am genuinely asking

Why is are comparing kai to Z? Its a different time and era.

That is the whole point I'm trying to make. A different era, including technological advances and everything.

Also, I don't understand why you posted DBZ ratings, because that I never argued against. DBZ was a ratings juggernaut, everyone knows that, it is its successors that have done well, but not nearly as well as DBZ. And yes, this can be attributed to a more fractured viewership due to more media outlets being available and more shows to chose from.

But again, this is going severely off-topic.

I've been in this fandom for a very long time, and I'm pretty certain I have not seen the same attitude towards 18 defeating Vegeta the way I have seen with Cauli and Kale being as strong as they are.

[TekTheNinja]

No cause unlike Super, she didn't come out of nowhere.

Didn't Trunks warn everyone about 19 and 20? 18 didn't even exist until an editor got involved.

About Kale and Caliufla, my biggest annoyance with there detractors is complaining there characters suck because of some lack of character or some such nonsense.

Califlya alone is like a big sister to Kale and they have a nice bond together which lead to a great battle with Goku.

Meanwhile we have past characters like Tenshinhan, Chouzu, Yajorobe, Lunch, etc who had zero back story.

You don't need backstory for a good character. You just need personality. I don't need to know Tenshinhan's entire life story to know that I like him, and knowing Caulifla's entire life story probably won't make me think of her as any less of a cookie cutter generic brat.