Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

[Noah]

With composition I mean the writing, the pacing and the narrative, being only art-style and animation that stand out in general.

We got big expectations towards this arc: a Battle Royale, with new introduced characters and universes, but it doesn't feel like they are doing good with this premise, besides a couple of excellent episodes.

It is really a Battle Royale or an All Out War vs. Universe 7?

It sucks to see universes passively waiting to be erased for being defeated by Goku and pals, they can't battle anyone else? No other universe can be responsible to erase another?

It doesn't feel like a Battle Royale to me, I expected pure chaos and not characters standing around doing nothing and waiting to fight someone else, there's a time limit, right? But it seems nobody really cares and we also don't see characters rushing because of it, but yes wasting their time talking with others.

After the current episode (#119) I feel like this arc is going to a predictable climax: U7 eliminates the rest of U3 fighters, the said universe is erased and U11 will be the last they will face, not that I would think it would be different, but I expected more twists and turns before we get there and not a straight line.

[Totamo]

There was no way they could make any of this worked and everyone who has stayed with super would know that.


I just can't fathom anyone thinking they could have pulled this off, I don't even a combine duo of togashi and araki could pull this off.


we watch it for dumb fun, if you wanted good writing, you should checked out the moment battle royale was listed.

[Hawk9211]

I wanted fights like Roshi and gohan Vs Obuni I didn't even get that.They shouldn't have done a multiversal tournament before exploring other universes let alone a battle royale.

[BWri]

With composition I mean the writing, the pacing and the narrative, being only art-style and animation that stand out in general.

We got big expectations towards this arc: a Battle Royale, with new introduced characters and universes, but it doesn't feel like they are doing good with this premise, besides a couple of excellent episodes.

It is really a Battle Royale or an All Out War vs. Universe 7?

It sucks to see universes passively waiting to be erased by being defeated by Goku and pals, then can't battle anyone else? No other universe can be responsible to erase another?

It doesn't feel like a Battle Royale to me, I expected pure chaos and not characters standing around doing nothing and waiting to fight someone else, there's a time limit, right? But it seems nobody really cares and we also don't see characters rushing because of it, but yes wasting their time talking with others.

After the current episode (#119) I feel like this arc is going to a predictable climax: U7 eliminates the rest of U3 fighters, the said universe is erased and U11 will be the last they will face, not that I would think it would be different, but I expected more twists and turns before we get there and not a straight line.

One of my recent comments in another thread was that Toriyama was a good "idea guy" but needed some help from an experienced writer to flesh his ideas out. I pretty much stand by that. I think his editors helped with that before and now Toyotaro and Toei are trying their bests to fill in the narrative gaps of what Toriyama san leaves them, but this has been an overall lackluster tournament (with some huge high notes admittedly) and yes, it is the composition that hurts it a lot.

If it played it straight, this wouldn't be a problem, but its like someone wanted U7 to be this dominant force over the other universes but they didn't completely go in that direction, instead compromising that idea with the idea that the other universes were still some kind of threat. So instead of a tournament with legitimate challenges to U7's dominance (other than Jiren and Toppo) we got a middle of the road scenario that gives us a lot of weird and vague excuses for why U7 is struggling against the other universes. And instead of just out and out having every universe gang up on U7, they played that in the middle too and had a bunch of one on one skirmishes before finally having someone at the end admit that everyone is ganging up on U7. That would have been the perfect way to build tension from the very beginning and a great way to get all the characters involved organically. That, or actually have all the universes legitimately be threatening.

There was no way they could make any of this worked and everyone who has stayed with super would know that.


I just can't fathom anyone thinking they could have pulled this off, I don't even a combine duo of togashi and araki could pull this off.


we watch it for dumb fun, if you wanted good writing, you should checked out the moment battle royale was listed.

That's just a pointless excuse really and just all out untrue. It only takes a basic understanding of how a battle royale works to compellingly display the mechanics and drama of it on the screen or page. As a matter of fact there have been several animes that have used BR to a successful degree and if that is the WHOLE premise of this arc, then you'd think more effort would be put into getting that chaotic BR feel. I have no doubt that Togashi could pull off a BR. A team of he and Oda would make the most epic battle royale. Or just get one of them to assist Toriyama and you would have the best tournament arc in anime history.

[MR.Mark]

It's being structured a lot closer to dbz in pacing more often than not, that's my only real beef with it so far.

[Totamo]

With composition I mean the writing, the pacing and the narrative, being only art-style and animation that stand out in general.

We got big expectations towards this arc: a Battle Royale, with new introduced characters and universes, but it doesn't feel like they are doing good with this premise, besides a couple of excellent episodes.

It is really a Battle Royale or an All Out War vs. Universe 7?

It sucks to see universes passively waiting to be erased by being defeated by Goku and pals, then can't battle anyone else? No other universe can be responsible to erase another?

It doesn't feel like a Battle Royale to me, I expected pure chaos and not characters standing around doing nothing and waiting to fight someone else, there's a time limit, right? But it seems nobody really cares and we also don't see characters rushing because of it, but yes wasting their time talking with others.

After the current episode (#119) I feel like this arc is going to a predictable climax: U7 eliminates the rest of U3 fighters, the said universe is erased and U11 will be the last they will face, not that I would think it would be different, but I expected more twists and turns before we get there and not a straight line.

One of my recent comments in another thread was that Toriyama was a good "idea guy" but needed some help from an experienced writer to flesh his ideas out. I pretty much stand by that. I think his editors helped with that before and now Toyotaro and Toei are trying their bests to fill in the narrative gaps of what Toriyama san leaves them, but this has been an overall lackluster tournament (with some huge high notes admittedly) and yes, it is the composition that hurts it a lot.

If it played it straight, this wouldn't be a problem, but its like someone wanted U7 to be this dominant force over the other universes but they didn't completely go in that direction, instead compromising that idea with the idea that the other universes were still some kind of threat. So instead of a tournament with legitimate challenges to U7's dominance (other than Jiren and Toppo) we got a middle of the road scenario that gives us a lot of weird and vague excuses for why U7 is struggling against the other universes. And instead of just out and out having every universe gang up on U7, they played that in the middle too and had a bunch of one on one skirmishes before finally having someone at the end admit that everyone is ganging up on U7. That would have been the perfect way to build tension from the very beginning and a great way to get all the characters involved organically. That, or actually have all the universes legitimately be threatening.

There was no way they could make any of this worked and everyone who has stayed with super would know that.


I just can't fathom anyone thinking they could have p other universeulled this off, I don't even a combine duo of togashi and araki could pull this off.


we watch it for dumb fun, if you wanted good writing, you should checked out the moment battle royale was listed.

That's just a pointless excuse really and just all out untrue. It only takes a basic understanding of how a battle royale works to compellingly display the mechanics and drama of it on the screen or page. As a matter of fact there have been several animes that have used BR to a successful degree and if that is the WHOLE premise of this arc, then you'd think more effort would be put into getting that chaotic BR feel. I have no doubt that Togashi could pull off a BR. A team of he and Oda would make the most epic battle royale. Or just get one of them to assist Toriyama and you would have the best tournament arc in anime history.

Yes, make 65 unique fighters, give them all unique personalities and abilities.
Flesh out 6 and a half universes so we have a great idea of what they are like.
Make sure the main 10 have a at least one meaningful solo battle, a team up and an elimination as well as they have a impactful dismissal.
Use creative tactics and techniques to take out most opponents.
Give every universe at least 1 top tier fighter and make sure they have a star performance so we truly know they are the best.
Showcase the chaos, every episode so we know we are in a battle royale.
Have other universes actually eliminate the other so we know they are a threat.
Make every universal elimination feel unique.
Also focus on fights so we don't get confused and lose whats happening.
By the way, You only 45 episodes to do it, back to back so make sure the animation and artwork is consistent and remember, not all fights can end in ring out also no eliminating whole universes in one episode, not to mention you have explain how things work, have the omni king refereeing and oh every episode is 21 minutes.
Have fun

P.S don't forget the power scale

This is every complaint this arc has gotten and i don't know a single anime that has had an arc with this level of scale or scope. Name one, if you think so.


By the way, Togashi couldn't draw that shit because he is a subpar artist, compared to even Oda himself whose artstyle is the biggest complaint of his work and Oda already made a tournament just like this, the battle block on a far smaller scale with tiers and people found it boring and dressrosa arc one of the most painful to get through in anime form.

[Totamo]

I wanted fights like Roshi and gohan Vs Obuni I didn't even get that.They shouldn't have done a multiversal tournament before exploring other universes let alone a battle royale.

This is the key. This arc happened too soon.

[Master Xar]

With composition I mean the writing, the pacing and the narrative, being only art-style and animation that stand out in general.

We got big expectations towards this arc: a Battle Royale, with new introduced characters and universes, but it doesn't feel like they are doing good with this premise, besides a couple of excellent episodes.

It is really a Battle Royale or an All Out War vs. Universe 7?

It sucks to see universes passively waiting to be erased by being defeated by Goku and pals, then can't battle anyone else? No other universe can be responsible to erase another?

It doesn't feel like a Battle Royale to me, I expected pure chaos and not characters standing around doing nothing and waiting to fight someone else, there's a time limit, right? But it seems nobody really cares and we also don't see characters rushing because of it, but yes wasting their time talking with others.

After the current episode (#119) I feel like this arc is going to a predictable climax: U7 eliminates the rest of U3 fighters, the said universe is erased and U11 will be the last they will face, not that I would think it would be different, but I expected more twists and turns before we get there and not a straight line.

One of my recent comments in another thread was that Toriyama was a good "idea guy" but needed some help from an experienced writer to flesh his ideas out. I pretty much stand by that. I think his editors helped with that before and now Toyotaro and Toei are trying their bests to fill in the narrative gaps of what Toriyama san leaves them, but this has been an overall lackluster tournament (with some huge high notes admittedly) and yes, it is the composition that hurts it a lot.

If it played it straight, this wouldn't be a problem, but its like someone wanted U7 to be this dominant force over the other universes but they didn't completely go in that direction, instead compromising that idea with the idea that the other universes were still some kind of threat. So instead of a tournament with legitimate challenges to U7's dominance (other than Jiren and Toppo) we got a middle of the road scenario that gives us a lot of weird and vague excuses for why U7 is struggling against the other universes. And instead of just out and out having every universe gang up on U7, they played that in the middle too and had a bunch of one on one skirmishes before finally having someone at the end admit that everyone is ganging up on U7. That would have been the perfect way to build tension from the very beginning and a great way to get all the characters involved organically. That, or actually have all the universes legitimately be threatening.

There was no way they could make any of this worked and everyone who has stayed with super would know that.


I just can't fathom anyone thinking they could have pulled this off, I don't even a combine duo of togashi and araki could pull this off.


we watch it for dumb fun, if you wanted good writing, you should checked out the moment battle royale was listed.

That's just a pointless excuse really and just all out untrue. It only takes a basic understanding of how a battle royale works to compellingly display the mechanics and drama of it on the screen or page. As a matter of fact there have been several animes that have used BR to a successful degree and if that is the WHOLE premise of this arc, then you'd think more effort would be put into getting that chaotic BR feel. I have no doubt that Togashi could pull off a BR. A team of he and Oda would make the most epic battle royale. Or just get one of them to assist Toriyama and you would have the best tournament arc in anime history.

Oda already fucked up a battle royale arc in the Dressrosa arc, the problem goes way deeper than that man, you have to have a GODLIKE animation, storyboarding, and directing team, maybe even go seasonal make sure each and every one of the 80 characters get some sort of screen, and if certain characters outside of Goku and Saiyans got any shine they’d have to get eliminations. No? Look where we are now.

If we didn’t get this direction, several U7 fighters would have gotten thrown out way earlier than they did, people would once again get mad.

If we focused on other universes fighting other universes we would have got complaints about “filler” and “where’s Goku” “where’s universe 7”

If we had random characters fighting random characters and flying around every episode, not only would that take as I said before a GODLIKE animation studio to pull off smoothly, but people would be whining about how there’s “no direction” and “mindless fighting”

A Battle Royale in Shonen where both fans and creators are both 100% satisfied and executed smoothly is impossible and an idea doomed from the start, Togashi, Oda, Araki, you name it, individually and with a week-to-week show schedule is NOT a good idea.

At least I’m having fun with this tournament and it has well directed, animated episodes and decent character development without being 100 episodes long like the Dressrosa Arc, I’m having fun seeing U7 kick ass and that’s what I can give to the tournament at least.

[Zagacious]

The character designs are really good, but most of it is wasted by making characters too weak. Who cares if someone has this awesome ability if someone can just one shot them out of the arena, especially when the writers willingly put up matchups like that. It feels rushed intentionally because why else would they make the matchups so bad, it's like it's there intentionally so they can make as little action as possible, quick 2 minute spar fights then people just staring at each other or talking, repeated comments from the stands then it's over. The previews and 'next ep' take up like 8 minutes so you end up with like 16 minutes where the content is already stretched out ridiculously far.

[Hawk9211]

With composition I mean the writing, the pacing and the narrative, being only art-style and animation that stand out in general.

We got big expectations towards this arc: a Battle Royale, with new introduced characters and universes, but it doesn't feel like they are doing good with this premise, besides a couple of excellent episodes.

It is really a Battle Royale or an All Out War vs. Universe 7?

It sucks to see universes passively waiting to be erased by being defeated by Goku and pals, then can't battle anyone else? No other universe can be responsible to erase another?

It doesn't feel like a Battle Royale to me, I expected pure chaos and not characters standing around doing nothing and waiting to fight someone else, there's a time limit, right? But it seems nobody really cares and we also don't see characters rushing because of it, but yes wasting their time talking with others.

After the current episode (#119) I feel like this arc is going to a predictable climax: U7 eliminates the rest of U3 fighters, the said universe is erased and U11 will be the last they will face, not that I would think it would be different, but I expected more twists and turns before we get there and not a straight line.

One of my recent comments in another thread was that Toriyama was a good "idea guy" but needed some help from an experienced writer to flesh his ideas out. I pretty much stand by that. I think his editors helped with that before and now Toyotaro and Toei are trying their bests to fill in the narrative gaps of what Toriyama san leaves them, but this has been an overall lackluster tournament (with some huge high notes admittedly) and yes, it is the composition that hurts it a lot.

If it played it straight, this wouldn't be a problem, but its like someone wanted U7 to be this dominant force over the other universes but they didn't completely go in that direction, instead compromising that idea with the idea that the other universes were still some kind of threat. So instead of a tournament with legitimate challenges to U7's dominance (other than Jiren and Toppo) we got a middle of the road scenario that gives us a lot of weird and vague excuses for why U7 is struggling against the other universes. And instead of just out and out having every universe gang up on U7, they played that in the middle too and had a bunch of one on one skirmishes before finally having someone at the end admit that everyone is ganging up on U7. That would have been the perfect way to build tension from the very beginning and a great way to get all the characters involved organically. That, or actually have all the universes legitimately be threatening.

There was no way they could make any of this worked and everyone who has stayed with super would know that.


I just can't fathom anyone thinking they could have pulled this off, I don't even a combine duo of togashi and araki could pull this off.


we watch it for dumb fun, if you wanted good writing, you should checked out the moment battle royale was listed.

That's just a pointless excuse really and just all out untrue. It only takes a basic understanding of how a battle royale works to compellingly display the mechanics and drama of it on the screen or page. As a matter of fact there have been several animes that have used BR to a successful degree and if that is the WHOLE premise of this arc, then you'd think more effort would be put into getting that chaotic BR feel. I have no doubt that Togashi could pull off a BR. A team of he and Oda would make the most epic battle royale. Or just get one of them to assist Toriyama and you would have the best tournament arc in anime history.

I have only watched the dressrossa tournament in anime, it easily gives the feeling of battle royale even if some guys were off screened.The fact is you can't portray 80 fighters good enough let alone in a tournament.

I don't know what toei and toriyama were thinking by doing 80 persons tournament with 8 teams without any prior build up and trying to flesh them up in a battle royale.If they had decided to do it, they should have off screened a couple of people,lessen the gags and focus on people that mattered.

But the best route would be to explore other universes. For sake of argument let's assume U2 and U11 are final antagonists. Have four mini arcs on U3/ U10, U4/U9 or two arcs on paired universes with build up of U2 and U11. The high mortal level universes remain exempt. Then we can have universe Vs universe or even this mess of a tournament.

[Master Xar]

With composition I mean the writing, the pacing and the narrative, being only art-style and animation that stand out in general.

We got big expectations towards this arc: a Battle Royale, with new introduced characters and universes, but it doesn't feel like they are doing good with this premise, besides a couple of excellent episodes.

It is really a Battle Royale or an All Out War vs. Universe 7?

It sucks to see universes passively waiting to be erased by being defeated by Goku and pals, then can't battle anyone else? No other universe can be responsible to erase another?

It doesn't feel like a Battle Royale to me, I expected pure chaos and not characters standing around doing nothing and waiting to fight someone else, there's a time limit, right? But it seems nobody really cares and we also don't see characters rushing because of it, but yes wasting their time talking with others.

After the current episode (#119) I feel like this arc is going to a predictable climax: U7 eliminates the rest of U3 fighters, the said universe is erased and U11 will be the last they will face, not that I would think it would be different, but I expected more twists and turns before we get there and not a straight line.

One of my recent comments in another thread was that Toriyama was a good "idea guy" but needed some help from an experienced writer to flesh his ideas out. I pretty much stand by that. I think his editors helped with that before and now Toyotaro and Toei are trying their bests to fill in the narrative gaps of what Toriyama san leaves them, but this has been an overall lackluster tournament (with some huge high notes admittedly) and yes, it is the composition that hurts it a lot.

If it played it straight, this wouldn't be a problem, but its like someone wanted U7 to be this dominant force over the other universes but they didn't completely go in that direction, instead compromising that idea with the idea that the other universes were still some kind of threat. So instead of a tournament with legitimate challenges to U7's dominance (other than Jiren and Toppo) we got a middle of the road scenario that gives us a lot of weird and vague excuses for why U7 is struggling against the other universes. And instead of just out and out having every universe gang up on U7, they played that in the middle too and had a bunch of one on one skirmishes before finally having someone at the end admit that everyone is ganging up on U7. That would have been the perfect way to build tension from the very beginning and a great way to get all the characters involved organically. That, or actually have all the universes legitimately be threatening.

There was no way they could make any of this worked and everyone who has stayed with super would know that.


I just can't fathom anyone thinking they could have p other universeulled this off, I don't even a combine duo of togashi and araki could pull this off.


we watch it for dumb fun, if you wanted good writing, you should checked out the moment battle royale was listed.

That's just a pointless excuse really and just all out untrue. It only takes a basic understanding of how a battle royale works to compellingly display the mechanics and drama of it on the screen or page. As a matter of fact there have been several animes that have used BR to a successful degree and if that is the WHOLE premise of this arc, then you'd think more effort would be put into getting that chaotic BR feel. I have no doubt that Togashi could pull off a BR. A team of he and Oda would make the most epic battle royale. Or just get one of them to assist Toriyama and you would have the best tournament arc in anime history.

Yes, make 65 unique fighters, give them all unique personalities and abilities.
Flesh out 6 and a half universes so we have a great idea of what they are like.
Make sure the main 10 have a at least one meaningful solo battle, a team up and an elimination as well as they have a impactful dismissal.
Use creative tactics and techniques to take out most opponents.
Give every universe at least 1 top tier fighter and make sure they have a star performance so we truly know they are the best.
Showcase the chaos, every episode so we know we are in a battle royale.
Have other universes actually eliminate the other so we know they are a threat.
Make every universal elimination feel unique.
Also focus on fights so we don't get confused and lose whats happening.
By the way, You only 45 episodes to do it, back to back so make sure the animation and artwork is consistent and remember, not all fights can end in ring out also no eliminating whole universes in one episode, not to mention you have explain how things work, have the omni king refereeing and oh every episode is 21 minutes.
Have fun

P.S don't forget the power scale

This is every complaint this arc has gotten and i don't know a single anime that has had an arc with this level of scale or scope. Name one, if you think so.


By the way, Togashi couldn't draw that shit because he is a subpar artist, compared to even Oda himself whose artstyle is the biggest complaint of his work and Oda already made a tournament just like this, the battle block on a far smaller scale with tiers and people found it boring and dressrosa arc one of the most painful to get through in anime form.

see this guy gets it!

To add to you list
1.) make sure each and every U7 member prove their worth (a simple solo battle won’t do, especially for the human fighters and Vegeta) without eliminating too many (2 max) with GREAT animation, and a decent reason they were ringed out. Remember: Chaos EVERY episode.
2.) manage the strong fighters with the weaker ones in the “lol random fighting”
3.) no PIS, no dumb decisions.
4.) no grand fight (Goku vs Jiren)
5.) no transformation to put Goku over others.
6.) Make it so Goku AND Vegeta rarely use SSJB BUT have them be serious, WITH many more SSJG or above level fighters in the ring. Chaos. EVERY. Episode.

Good LUCK!

[ulitmax999]

Give every universe at least 1 top tier fighter and make sure they have a star performance so we truly know they are the best.
Showcase the chaos, every episode so we know we are in a battle royale.
Have other universes actually eliminate the other so we know they are a threat.

NOPEEE!!! We must make U7 be the one eliminating the other Fodders Universe!

Because we only care about U7!

Good idea to have 1 top fighter of other universe so that they can be utterly crushed by the low tier of U7 and make them feel despair! :]

[BWri]

Yes, make 65 unique fighters, give them all unique personalities and abilities.

So my overall point is simply that they could've focused in on only a few of the points you listed for a much better arc. For this particular point, I think they actually did a fairly good job. I like most of the fighters, even ugly ones like Prum because he has a cool gimmick.

Flesh out 6 and a half universes so we have a great idea of what they are like.

Yeah, that's kinda the point or at least give them some solid development IN the tournament. I still don't even know what half these universes are about, what their relationship to their teammates are, etc. Why the hell was Dr. Rota chosen for U6?

Make sure the main 10 have a at least one meaningful solo battle, a team up and an elimination as well as they have a impactful dismissal.

They actually did this with everyone but Tien.

Use creative tactics and techniques to take out most opponents.

They did this too.

Give every universe at least 1 top tier fighter and make sure they have a star performance so we truly know they are the best.

Not necessary, but the strongest fighter in U2 probably shouldn't get one shot by #18, even if it makes for a badass scene and the alleged strongest of U3 likewise shouldn't get fodderized by a base Cabba who isn't paying attention to him. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with having a universe full of fighters weaker than U7s weakest, but its just too much in this tourney. Besides U6 and U11, no one is remotely competitive and with that being the case, why not have more competitive fights amongst the weaker characters. It started off good with Basil, Lilybeau, Napapa, Shosa, Krillin, Majora, and Narirama doing battle, but it quickly became the Goku show soon after, then the Goku featuring show. The Roshi stuff was good.

Showcase the chaos, every episode so we know we are in a battle royale.

While that would be nice, it's not what me or many others are asking for. Just don't have a series of small battles where most of the cast is just standing around doing nothing for episodes on end. And don't have Goku fighting in like 70% of the battles because it feels like no one else is fighting and don't have U7 eliminate 70% of the competitors unless its a plot point otherwise it comes off as all the other universes waited their turn to fight U7 (mainly Goku). Like why the hell would all the universes want to gang up on U7 then patiently wait on 1v1 or 1v2 fights?

Have other universes actually eliminate the other so we know they are a threat.

Uhhhh, yeah, I mean it is a battle royale and we do like tension, right? Why do a battle royale in the first place if you can't make it feel like a battle royale? Imagine a Royal Rumble, a combat event that is scripted just like the ToP, imagine a RR with the same problems as the ToP. That would be considered a boring RR. Everyone waiting to eliminate one guy, but taking turns fighting him. That one guy eliminating most of the competition and having no real threats but maybe two other people. And its all new wrestlers so the announcers have to quickly try to endear them and explain what they're about to the fans so that the match doesn't feel like time filler.

Make every universal elimination feel unique.

I don't know how but they've already done this. It's not even a problem, especially if we already care about the characters.

Also focus on fights so we don't get confused and lose whats happening.

This isn't much of a problem. They can easily play with time like a comic book. A three episode fight between the Saiyans, Androids, and Pride Troopers, but that fight intrudes on Piccolo and Gohan's fight. Several episodes later Piccolo and Gohan also get their focus and we see from their perspective how the other fight interfered in what they were doing and it gives us a sense of what's going on when with the other characters. Or just do it all and have all these plots going through the episodes. It's fine. You can't show every character all the time but you can spend less time with Goku, Kale, Caulifla, and the peanut gallery in the benches to make this tourney feel less like its made for the sake of blatant merchandising.

By the way, You only 45 episodes to do it, back to back so make sure the animation and artwork is consistent and remember, not all fights can end in ring out also no eliminating whole universes in one episode, not to mention you have explain how things work, have the omni king refereeing and oh every episode is 21 minutes.
Have fun

The episode count they've been given is very generous for this concept. They have padded many of the episodes out and some were just nothing episodes (17 and Goku vs. Poachers anyone?) And I'm not saying that everything they've done is horribad, but they have given us a concept that they have just not stuck to. They've cheated all the way and conveyed to the audience that this format will not effect the way Dragon Ball is written because Dragon Ball is Dragon Ball and they can write it any damn way they please, common intelligence be damned. As you can see, I think they've done a lot correctly or beyond my expectations, but that still doesn't changed the fact that they ruined this whole concept that they were trying to sell us.

P.S don't forget the power scale

Surprisingly, by this point in the tourney, I think they've done well with the power scale. Most of my questions where sufficiently answered in the latter part of the tourney, but the start of it was rough and there's still a few oddities here and there. Power scale also isn't a very difficult thing to keep track of and convey. They were just making odd decisions at the beginning and being a little too vague.

This is every complaint this arc has gotten and i don't know a single anime that has had an arc with this level of scale or scope. Name one, if you think so.

As far as characters go, One Piece handles tons of characters in each and every arc. Only difference is Oda typically sets up his scenarios better. The arc of Luffy trying to rescue Ace is a good example of it as the sheer amount of characters important to the world and plot is roughly the same as this tournament, only the characters have a little more weight to them in OP and this is coming from someone who barely watches it. OP isn't even in my top 10, as I watch it very infrequently but am aware of its quality (its just a huge time investment for me at this point). Buuuuuut, that said, I don't think Super has failed in this category either. The main criticism that Super has at this point is wasted characters IMO. As soon as you like a character or think they have more to offer, they get eliminated.

By the way, Togashi couldn't draw that shit because he is a subpar artist, compared to even Oda himself whose artstyle is the biggest complaint of his work and Oda already made a tournament just like this, the battle block on a far smaller scale with tiers and people found it boring and dressrosa arc one of the most painful to get through in anime form.

I'm not quite sure of all that, but I will take your word for it. But even if that's the case, Togashi's Dark Tournament is one of THE best tourney arcs in anime. And Oda is probably the #1 mangaka when it comes to worldbuilding. He'd have fleshed out these universes and given us the bits and pieces of them to make the ToP a little more compelling. Toriyama is the spectacle guy with the top notch ideas. Him combining with either of them would simply raise the quality of this tourney. What I didn't mention was the Toei writers who are all over the map quality wise. I don't even know what to say about them. Some eps elevate Super over Z, but others make GT look like gold.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Absolutely. 100%. The composition of this arc is one of the worst I have seen in recent TV anime. If the Trunks story had the issue of speeding up events and fastening the pacing, this arc takes it to the opposite extreme.

Why the fuck did they add the 48 minute time limit? It is totally nonsensical. And, really trying to be like Z and all of the callbacks and decisions the staff has made is blatant nostalgia pandering. I want DBS to become its own thing, but the staff doesn't or more accurately the producers and Toriyama don't. The battle royal concept was not going to work in a TV space and on top of it with a troubled production like DBS. While they have made notable improvements, it isn't a battle royal. And, the way they have incorporated Gokuu which is a conscious decision from the producer as was confirmed is just bad. There are better ways to make your main character feel like a main character. Gokuu is just unbearable in this whole arc and one of the main reasons why I'm not following the show anymore until this arc wraps up.

But, the show doesn't have a confirmed series composer to begin with so lol.

[buutenks]

The arc is cool, people were simply to over hyped with thinking that there will be tons of strong fighters etc. The top dogs were u7,u6 and u11, with rest being mid or lower level. Tho seems u3 might get jumped to top dog status if that combined mech will be impressive.

[KingKaash]

When I saw it was a Battle Royale my expectations immediately sunk. In 1-on-1 tournaments everyone that gets on screen has a chance to display what they can do. In a Battle Royale, everything is scattered and organization is lost. Continuity is hard to believe because these fights are supposedly happening at the same time but we see them episode by episode. And somehow this Battle Royale ToP turned into every Universe going after Universe 7 which I didn't think would happen but has been the biggest weakness of this ToP. At least in 1-on-1 tournament styles. It would've been guaranteed that other Universes would fight and eliminate each other

[FoolsGil]

Yes. Yes it is. I don't understand why Toei is incapable of sealing the deal. They have decades of experience, hundreds of shonen animes they have made, why is it that with Super, they are unable to do right?

[Master Xar]

Give every universe at least 1 top tier fighter and make sure they have a star performance so we truly know they are the best.
Showcase the chaos, every episode so we know we are in a battle royale.
Have other universes actually eliminate the other so we know they are a threat.

NOPEEE!!! We must make U7 be the one eliminating the other Fodders Universe!

Because we only care about U7!

Good idea to have 1 top fighter of other universe so that they can be utterly crushed by the low tier of U7 and make them feel despair! :]

Oh by all means give us some great ideas how YOU would do the tournament without pissing off the fanbase of some of our main fighters in the tournament while keeping Goku in to beat Jiren? Guarantee you the second you drop Vegeta out while Goku is still in as well as the human characters, their fanbases will be sending you death threats.

[Master Xar]

Yes, make 65 unique fighters, give them all unique personalities and abilities.

So my overall point is simply that they could've focused in on only a few of the points you listed for a much better arc. For this particular point, I think they actually did a fairly good job. I like most of the fighters, even ugly ones like Prum because he has a cool gimmick.

Flesh out 6 and a half universes so we have a great idea of what they are like.

Yeah, that's kinda the point or at least give them some solid development IN the tournament. I still don't even know what half these universes are about, what their relationship to their teammates are, etc. Why the hell was Dr. Rota chosen for U6?

Make sure the main 10 have a at least one meaningful solo battle, a team up and an elimination as well as they have a impactful dismissal.

They actually did this with everyone but Tien.

Use creative tactics and techniques to take out most opponents.

They did this too.

Give every universe at least 1 top tier fighter and make sure they have a star performance so we truly know they are the best.

Not necessary, but the strongest fighter in U2 probably shouldn't get one shot by #18, even if it makes for a badass scene and the alleged strongest of U3 likewise shouldn't get fodderized by a base Cabba who isn't paying attention to him. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with having a universe full of fighters weaker than U7s weakest, but its just too much in this tourney. Besides U6 and U11, no one is remotely competitive and with that being the case, why not have more competitive fights amongst the weaker characters. It started off good with Basil, Lilybeau, Napapa, Shosa, Krillin, Majora, and Narirama doing battle, but it quickly became the Goku show soon after, then the Goku featuring show. The Roshi stuff was good.

Showcase the chaos, every episode so we know we are in a battle royale.

While that would be nice, it's not what me or many others are asking for. Just don't have a series of small battles where most of the cast is just standing around doing nothing for episodes on end. And don't have Goku fighting in like 70% of the battles because it feels like no one else is fighting and don't have U7 eliminate 70% of the competitors unless its a plot point otherwise it comes off as all the other universes waited their turn to fight U7 (mainly Goku). Like why the hell would all the universes want to gang up on U7 then patiently wait on 1v1 or 1v2 fights?

Have other universes actually eliminate the other so we know they are a threat.

Uhhhh, yeah, I mean it is a battle royale and we do like tension, right? Why do a battle royale in the first place if you can't make it feel like a battle royale? Imagine a Royal Rumble, a combat event that is scripted just like the ToP, imagine a RR with the same problems as the ToP. That would be considered a boring RR. Everyone waiting to eliminate one guy, but taking turns fighting him. That one guy eliminating most of the competition and having no real threats but maybe two other people. And its all new wrestlers so the announcers have to quickly try to endear them and explain what they're about to the fans so that the match doesn't feel like time filler.

Make every universal elimination feel unique.

I don't know how but they've already done this. It's not even a problem, especially if we already care about the characters.

Also focus on fights so we don't get confused and lose whats happening.

This isn't much of a problem. They can easily play with time like a comic book. A three episode fight between the Saiyans, Androids, and Pride Troopers, but that fight intrudes on Piccolo and Gohan's fight. Several episodes later Piccolo and Gohan also get their focus and we see from their perspective how the other fight interfered in what they were doing and it gives us a sense of what's going on when with the other characters. Or just do it all and have all these plots going through the episodes. It's fine. You can't show every character all the time but you can spend less time with Goku, Kale, Caulifla, and the peanut gallery in the benches to make this tourney feel less like its made for the sake of blatant merchandising.

By the way, You only 45 episodes to do it, back to back so make sure the animation and artwork is consistent and remember, not all fights can end in ring out also no eliminating whole universes in one episode, not to mention you have explain how things work, have the omni king refereeing and oh every episode is 21 minutes.
Have fun

The episode count they've been given is very generous for this concept. They have padded many of the episodes out and some were just nothing episodes (17 and Goku vs. Poachers anyone?) And I'm not saying that everything they've done is horribad, but they have given us a concept that they have just not stuck to. They've cheated all the way and conveyed to the audience that this format will not effect the way Dragon Ball is written because Dragon Ball is Dragon Ball and they can write it any damn way they please, common intelligence be damned. As you can see, I think they've done a lot correctly or beyond my expectations, but that still doesn't changed the fact that they ruined this whole concept that they were trying to sell us.

P.S don't forget the power scale

Surprisingly, by this point in the tourney, I think they've done well with the power scale. Most of my questions where sufficiently answered in the latter part of the tourney, but the start of it was rough and there's still a few oddities here and there. Power scale also isn't a very difficult thing to keep track of and convey. They were just making odd decisions at the beginning and being a little too vague.

This is every complaint this arc has gotten and i don't know a single anime that has had an arc with this level of scale or scope. Name one, if you think so.

As far as characters go, One Piece handles tons of characters in each and every arc. Only difference is Oda typically sets up his scenarios better. The arc of Luffy trying to rescue Ace is a good example of it as the sheer amount of characters important to the world and plot is roughly the same as this tournament, only the characters have a little more weight to them in OP and this is coming from someone who barely watches it. OP isn't even in my top 10, as I watch it very infrequently but am aware of its quality (its just a huge time investment for me at this point). Buuuuuut, that said, I don't think Super has failed in this category either. The main criticism that Super has at this point is wasted characters IMO. As soon as you like a character or think they have more to offer, they get eliminated.

By the way, Togashi couldn't draw that shit because he is a subpar artist, compared to even Oda himself whose artstyle is the biggest complaint of his work and Oda already made a tournament just like this, the battle block on a far smaller scale with tiers and people found it boring and dressrosa arc one of the most painful to get through in anime form.

I'm not quite sure of all that, but I will take your word for it. But even if that's the case, Togashi's Dark Tournament is one of THE best tourney arcs in anime. And Oda is probably the #1 mangaka when it comes to worldbuilding. He'd have fleshed out these universes and given us the bits and pieces of them to make the ToP a little more compelling. Toriyama is the spectacle guy with the top notch ideas. Him combining with either of them would simply raise the quality of this tourney. What I didn't mention was the Toei writers who are all over the map quality wise. I don't even know what to say about them. Some eps elevate Super over Z, but others make GT look like gold.

45 episodes, there is literally no time to be giving out that information/development and giving everyone decent screentime and elimations, while giving U7 screentime, you’re REAALLY telling me we could have gotten as far into the tournament as we did keeping the same structure as the first few episodes of the tournament before it got incredibly stale.

We aren’t asking about what Toei already did or didn’t do we are asking, how would you pull off all the above, in 45 episodes, without a single falter in one and keeping interesting week to week plot points and keeping audience attention, fix ALL the complaints simultaneously and provide solid moments and hype.

You are forgetting that having characters stand still helps save time for animation, again constant movement while keeping good art and animation is literally the work only a studio of walking GODS can pull off with a perfect schedule or go seasonal, padding is needed for giving time for guys like Shida, Tate, Takahashi, and Otsuka to do their thing, the peanut gallery, outside of explaining what’s going on are simple to animate and don’t take much to storyboard or draw and in some cases bank up animation, cutting to another fight would only make them lose time and screw up the BIG moments. It’s not there to be Dragonball it’s there because there’s little breathing room to do it any other way.

[sintzu]

Overall it hasn't been good. The only character getting real screen time is Goku, they went out of their way to bring back Freeza but so far he's done nothing, 90% of the new characters are just copies of the same boring shit talking personality, no one seems to be taking their destruction seriously, etc.