Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

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Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

Post by AvatarReiko » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:27 am

Totamo wrote:There was no way they could make any of this worked and everyone who has stayed with super would know that.


I just can't fathom anyone thinking they could have pulled this off, I don't even a combine duo of togashi and araki could pull this off.


we watch it for dumb fun, if you wanted good writing, you should checked out the moment battle royale was listed.
I reckon Oda could have pulled it off, especially given how well executed the dressrosa tournament was. Then again, Oda is just on a completely different level to AT or any of writers at toei

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Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

Post by BWri » Sun Dec 10, 2017 10:56 am

Master Xar wrote:45 episodes, there is literally no time to be giving out that information/development and giving everyone decent screentime and elimations, while giving U7 screentime,
Are you serious? 45 episodes is nearly 4 anime seasons. It's more than enough to properly do something like this sufficiently. You're just not considering how much time has been wasted in this arc and how that time could easily have been repurposed to something better. How many times did Goku and Vegeta fight Ribrianne only for the fight to end with no fanfare? This fight also had no purpose and did the characters involved no favors. It was legitimately a time waster and when you analyze the arc in further detail, you'll notice that there's a lot of time wasters, like the writing team is spinning their wheels waiting to hit beats in someone elses barebones story draft or something.
you’re REAALLY telling me we could have gotten as far into the tournament as we did keeping the same structure as the first few episodes of the tournament before it got incredibly stale.
Yes. Increase the pace of the thing. I don't think every episode needs to be as crazy as the very start of the tournament, but the beginning should've just been a fast paced fustercluck, then as people were eliminated and stamina was drained it could've slowed down to where we're at now. The beginning was the perfect time for the weaker fighters to struggle and go all out, crashing and burning marvelously. They got the idea right with Roshi but not everyone needs 5 eliminations to be seen as effectively used.
We aren’t asking about what Toei already did or didn’t do we are asking, how would you pull off all the above, in 45 episodes, without a single falter in one and keeping interesting week to week plot points and keeping audience attention, fix ALL the complaints simultaneously and provide solid moments and hype.
By better capitalizing on the time I had with the characters and making them more compelling. Most of the complaints are with the writing BTW. The animation and fight choreography have been on point for pretty much the whole tournament. So if the writing is improved, so too will like 90% of the complaints and the rest can be drowned out because the show is truly good at that point and lives up to its concept.
You are forgetting that having characters stand still helps save time for animation,

Which is fine when important information is being conveyed like worldbuilding, or character development, but they don't typically use that time for this sooo ...
again constant movement while keeping good art and animation is literally the work only a studio of walking GODS can pull off with a perfect schedule or go seasonal, padding is needed for giving time for guys like Shida, Tate, Takahashi, and Otsuka to do their thing, the peanut gallery, outside of explaining what’s going on are simple to animate and don’t take much to storyboard or draw and in some cases bank up animation, cutting to another fight would only make them lose time and screw up the BIG moments. It’s not there to be Dragonball it’s there because there’s little breathing room to do it any other way.
I don't remember saying that I had a problem with them not animating every single thing in this arc and I certainly am aware of what padding is for, but there is a such thing as effective padding and noneffective padding. Effective padding can be used to flesh things out more. It's what the BoG and RoF arc needed if they wanted to stretch those arcs into something satisfying. Give us proper character development and explanations at a good pace. The peanut gallery states the obvious about 40 - 50% of the time. I'd rather characters still in the tournament used that time to flesh out their own characters and motivations. Look at how long it took us to get some character insight into Ribrianne. Besides her love gimmick and transformation gag, there wasn't much to her character for like 12 episodes, but as soon as she shows some doubts and gets some motivation, she becomes so much more interesting. U2 is now seen favorably and why? Because we got more insight into who they are and the strength of their motivations.
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Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

Post by BWri » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:03 am

AvatarReiko wrote: I reckon Oda could have pulled it off, especially given how well executed the dressrosa tournament was. Then again, Oda is just on a completely different level to AT or any of writers at toei
I think people don't realize that it all starts with the writing. If the writing is strong, then the rest will follow, especially given the quality of production talent involved in Super at the moment. I actually do give Toei some credit for writing incredible character moments, as some moments I just can't see AT penning, like the return of Kami and Nail last episode. That simple acknowledgement of legacy characters and their impact on the current situation added so much weight to that episode and Piccolo.
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Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

Post by Zamasu55 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:06 am

You know the funny part?
U3 and U11 will probably be taken out by U7 as well. 7/7 universes destroyed thanks to Goku and co. How adorable.

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Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

Post by Torturephile » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:08 am

It feels like a single player video game such as Super Mario 64. All NPCs (all universes) are enemies of Mario (universe 7) and never attack each other. They deactivate once Mario gets out of their spawn radius and remain frozen until he gets back into their radius.
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Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

Post by BWri » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:20 am

Torturephile wrote:It feels like a single player video game such as Super Mario 64. All NPCs (all universes) are enemies of Mario (universe 7) and never attack each other. They deactivate once Mario gets out of their spawn radius and remain frozen until he gets back into their radius.
LMAO! That's pretty much perfect. I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to find this very compelling. It's like basic storytelling to have the universes fighting each other as well, unless they agree to straight up gank U7.
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Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

Post by The gr » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:21 am

Torturephile wrote:It feels like a single player video game such as Super Mario 64. All NPCs (all universes) are enemies of Mario (universe 7) and never attack each other. They deactivate once Mario gets out of their spawn radius and remain frozen until he gets back into their radius.
Good analogy.this is how everyone feels like with jiren being the bowser.
    Yes the composition is atrocious,they should have never with a 80 man battle royale rather they should have went with team battles with twin fighting each other,is obvious no one can't handle an 80 man battle royale.
    Last edited by The gr on Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

    Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:27 am

    AvatarReiko wrote: I reckon Oda could have pulled it off, especially given how well executed the dressrosa tournament was. Then again, Oda is just on a completely different level to AT or any of writers at toei
    Dressrosa Tournament is nothing compared to TOP.

    The only interesting characters there are Luffy, Rebecca, Bartolomeo and Burgess. And then Sabo and Diamante in the finals.
    Don Chinjao is just another proof that a backstory doesn't make miracles and a bad character will still be a bad character.

    The fights are nowhere near as good. Goku/Vegeta vs Universe 9 trashes that whole Tournament.

    Dressrosa Tournament has much less important characters so it's easier to execute, because Oda can eliminate a lot of the fodder right away and speed up things along, making it feel more like a battle royal.

    A Tournament that focus only in fighting and has much less and interesting characters, lower stakes and worse fights can't be by any means better than the other.

    No other show could pull off what DBS is doing. Not in the same circumstances. People just have unrealistic expectations and that's why they can't give a better example than TOP, because there's isn't one in the first place.
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    Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

    Post by Hawk9211 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:52 am

    FortuneSSJ wrote:
    AvatarReiko wrote: I reckon Oda could have pulled it off, especially given how well executed the dressrosa tournament was. Then again, Oda is just on a completely different level to AT or any of writers at toei
    Dressrosa Tournament is nothing compared to TOP.

    The only interesting characters there are Luffy, Rebecca, Bartolomeo and Burgess. And then Sabo and Diamante in the finals.
    Don Chinjao is just another proof that a backstory doesn't make miracles and a bad character will still be a bad character.

    The fights are nowhere near as good. Goku/Vegeta vs Universe 9 trashes that whole Tournament.

    Dressrosa Tournament has much less important characters so it's easier to execute, because Oda can eliminate a lot of the fodder right away and speed up things along, making it feel more like a battle royal.

    A Tournament that focus only in fighting and has much less and interesting characters, lower stakes and worse fights can't be by any means better than the other.

    No other show could pull off what DBS is doing. Not in the same circumstances. People just have unrealistic expectations and that's why they can't give a better example than TOP, because there's isn't one in the first place.
    No other show would try to introduce 80 characters,hype techniques and abilities,try to make the audience care for characters that outside their name and design have nothing that particularly stands out and then reuse old techniques,give opponents a standard assholish personality and gimmicks like this opponent can use poison, this one can fly, this one can become fat when such gimmicks don't even stand out in street level stories without putting some sort of twist all in a multiversal tournament. I'm not disagreeing with you just adding some other points.

    I was expecting them to have a lot of people be off screened and focusing on important characters cuz that is what I would expect from any sane person.
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    Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

    Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:07 pm

    Hawk9211 wrote: I was expecting them to have a lot of people be off screened and focusing on important characters cuz that is what I would expect from any sane person.
    Some people already complain that doesn't feel like a "battle royal" and about the lack of screen time of some characters, and you wanted a lot of them to be eliminated off-screen in a big Tournament that has been hyped in the past arcs?! I'm glad the staff isn't sane then.
    Last edited by FortuneSSJ on Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

    Post by Hawk9211 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:12 pm

    FortuneSSJ wrote:
    Hawk9211 wrote: I was expecting them to have a lot of people be off screened and focusing on important characters cuz that is what I would expect from any sane person.
    People already complain about the screen time of some characters and you wanted a lot of them to be eliminated off-screen in a big Tournament, that has been hyped in the past arcs?! I'm glad the staff isn't sane then.
    I am talking from a writing point of view. Would you have 80 named generic characters with nothing else going for them or 40 characters with a more fleshed out personalities and abilities?I am just giving an example.
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    Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

    Post by The_Destroyer » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:18 pm

    Looks 119 actually changed a lot of people's opinion on the arc. I've felt this way since thr beginning. The only time it felt like a battle royale was in the very first episode of the ToP and in 118. I do think that this arc should have occured after a few more universes were explored, so we'd have a deeper connection to each one, and each Universe should have 1-2 top tier fighters rather than being all fodder like Universe 2 and 4 were.

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    Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

    Post by FortuneSSJ » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:22 pm

    Hawk9211 wrote: I am talking from a writing point of view. Would you have 80 named generic characters with nothing else going for them or 40 characters with a more fleshed out personalities and abilities?I am just giving an example.
    I would go with the second option, because it would mean more quality even though we would have less characters. I would still choose the third option.

    Third Option - Delay this Tournament.
    Have another two arcs involving other two participating Universes and then the Tournament.

    I still think the biggest problem of Universe Survival arc is not the arc itself, but its placement in the narrative. It happened too soon and that's why I was worried when it was announced. But the staff is doing the best they can with the options they have.
    Last edited by FortuneSSJ on Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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    Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

    Post by sintzu » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:24 pm

    AvatarReiko wrote:I reckon Oda could have pulled it off, especially given how well executed the dressrosa tournament was.
    It's not just him being a better writer, Toriyama is just writing very vague plot points unlike before and unlike Oda who's writing a full detailed story. This is the last type of story that works with the kind of writing Toriyama is doing now.

    I'd even question wheather or not smeone like Oda could pull it off let alone Toriyama who isn't even giving it his all like before.
    FortuneSSJ wrote:I still think the biggest problem of Universe Survival arc is not the arc itselt, but how soon it happened in the narrative.
    Modern DB is most likely going to be around for another 5 years at least so I don't know why they were in such a rush to do something like this so soon. This is the type of arc that needs multiple arcs worth of build up, not something you start the show with.
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    Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

    Post by Hawk9211 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:31 pm

    FortuneSSJ wrote:
    Hawk9211 wrote: I am talking from a writing point of view. Would you have 80 named generic characters with nothing else going for them or 40 characters with a more fleshed out personalities and abilities?I am just giving an example.
    I would go with the second option, because it would mean more quality even though we would have less characters. I would still choose the third option.

    Third Option - Delay this Tournament.
    Have another two arcs involving other two participating Universes and then the Tournament.

    I still think the biggest problem of Universe Survival arc is not the arc itselt, but how soon it happened in the narrative. And that's why I was worried when it was announced.
    But the staff is doing the best they can with the options they have.
    If we are talking about current situation,2nd option is best otherwise yeah 3rd option is best look at my posts in previous page.
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    Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

    Post by Totamo » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:41 pm

    AvatarReiko wrote:
    Totamo wrote:There was no way they could make any of this worked and everyone who has stayed with super would know that.


    I just can't fathom anyone thinking they could have pulled this off, I don't even a combine duo of togashi and araki could pull this off.


    we watch it for dumb fun, if you wanted good writing, you should checked out the moment battle royale was listed.
    I reckon Oda could have pulled it off, especially given how well executed the dressrosa tournament was. Then again, Oda is just on a completely different level to AT or any of writers at toei
    You mean the tournament that had a bunch of random thugs that we knew nothing about and got botched in anime form.


    He also broke it down in tiers, not all at once.

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    Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

    Post by TheMikado » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:15 pm

    It’s weird to hear that battle royales are impossible when Dragonball also has battle royales before this...

    Well at least we are all in agreement that it’s terrible.

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    Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

    Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:26 pm

    The concept of the Tournament Of Power, with the limitations and rules it has in-universe, as well the amount of competitors that would be fighting, doomed this entire arc from having a proper structure when it came to main event.

    No other show, that at least I can think of, has had the task of handling 80 characters and properly introducing and handling at least 60 of them in a single arc, so I'm kind bemused as to why Dragon Ball, as show that had major issues properly handling characters in tournament arcs where there were less than 20 characters to manage, would decide to have an arc with a scope and scale as huge as this. Some of the best writing staff in the world would have greatly struggled or flat reject a concept like this. There are so many things this arc has to do at the same time, most of which are literally impossible from a production and narrative standpoint. I mean, can you imagine trying to do a tournament like this on a 1v1 structure? The narrative may have been a bit more cohesive, but the the pacing would have terrible. A tournament like this would have lasted twice as long.

    I think the biggest issue withthe structure of this arc comes with what Toriyama intends for the climax of the Tournament Of Power to be. If the climax is intended to be Goku and Jiren or some variation of Goku/Vegeta/Jiren/Toppo/Freeza, you're going to have to find a way to either keep the interactions between them very limited, have their battle be inconclusive through some vague means or keep them separate from each other for almost the entire tournament until the very end, while also at the same time limiting what Jiren, as well the other high ranking characters in the strength department, do in combat to create more intrigue in what the final battle(s) will be. Doing that in a consistent structure within the narrative, given the context of the format of the Tournament Of Power, can't work if you don't have characters like Goku, Vegeta, Jiren, Hit, Toppo and Freeza either fighting other noticeably weaker characters and/or holding back in process of fighting somewhat stronger opponent to preserve their power for the fights that will truly matter latter (Goku and Vegeta), just not doing nothing much at all (Toppo and Freeza) or have their contributions to the number of competitors in the tournament being thinned out being as minimal as possible to preserve their mystique in their true strength (Jiren) and make the final battle(s) all the more enticing.

    I went into this arc wanting to see some cool fights, good character interactions, the majority of the central characters to have a their moment their in the sun and a little of character development and progression sprinkled in here and there. And I've already gotten that in spades with this arc, so I'm more than satisfied.

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    Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

    Post by Doctor. » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:29 pm

    Yes, this arc is awful and I'd argue that it's the worst arc in the series. I don't understand the people who say "You should have known, nobody can pull this off. 80 new characters? You're crazy! It's a battle royale, too!" while ignoring the fact that a) multiple other series introduce dozens of characters in big-scale arcs (with a messy structure as the setting, like an invasion or a war) and manage to execute them well, or at least better than DBS has, and b) you didn't need to introduce 80 new characters this arc. Not only did the series have 30 episodes between the Black arc and the ToP to introduce the new fighters and give them some degree of depth beforehand, but this arc didn't need to come so soon into the series' run. There's absolutely no excuse. The arc was poorly planned and it's showing.
    Last edited by Doctor. on Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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    Re: Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

    Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:29 pm

    It kind of reminds me of a big comic book cross over which is probably why I don't care for it, cool interactions and fights aren't enough to satisfy me in the place where it counts: the narrative and much like most cross overs, the Universe Survival Arcs scale completely kills any kind of quality the narrative might have.
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