Is the composition of the Universe Survival arc terrible?

[Hellspawn28]

I personally enjoy this arc for giving other characters a chance to shine like the humans and the cyborgs. It's not as Goku driven as most people make it out to be.

[Spider-Man]

Yes this arc is mediocre and is full of frustrating decision.

[dbs fanboy]

To be fair, at first it was indeed a 100% chaotic battle royale. I've rewatched some of the first episodes and fighters were coming from everywhere, but then as time went on, either more and more fighter got eliminated, other ones decided to hide and wait for chances and sometimes stopped fighting in special cases, like when Goku started fighting Jiren.

I don't think the ToP of power is an all out war against U7. I mean, before the special, the only universe that was seriously targeting U7 was U9 because they had a grudge against Goku, the other fights were pretty much random, and we only got them because U7 is still the main focus of the series (because main character magic powers). But from time to time we saw different universes targeting each other, like U2 vs U10, or U6 vs U11, or U3 vs U6 and etc.

But after the ToP special finished, the arc became a big brawl against the main universe as Goku was the second strongest character and was seemingly tired, either that, or revenge (U2 vs the androids) and in Caulifla's case, trying to get more power learning from the strongest saiyan.

Edit:

I think that the ToP has failed in living to everyone's hype that's for sure, but it is not a fail in my book. Don't know why some are suddenly saying "hey at least we all agree that it's bad" when it's not really the case. From what i've seen this is a big case of "different things to different folk", i still remember how in the first episodes, some people were disliking the ToP because it needed more focus, and others were liking it for being chaotic, then as the arc progressed, some people started disliking it for not feeling like a battle royale while the other side started liking more the way the fighst were made. Some hated it for characters like Caulifla or Ribrianne, while other ones liked those character so they enjoyed their scenes a lot.

For example, a lot of people loved ep 100 because it felt stupid but like something out of Z, while they hated ep 102 because they disliked the gags and it didn't feel like dragon ball, while others hated ep 100 for being "the Broly chapter" but loved ep 102 because the gags and references.

This arc is pretty much polarizing, much more i'd say than ep 66 and the ending of the Future Trunks arc.


As for me, i didn't really came with expectations, as i do with every single arc (pretty much every single kind of new db material sonce the movies) i imagined how it could be but never expected what it could be so i just chilled and watched the episodes just to see what were Toei/Toriyama going to do with them, and if it managed to still cover the things that usually make me like db. The only episodes that really failed to me were the ones that were either boring (episodes that don't really give me anything to talk about or enjoy), or that made a character look terrible, and i'm not talking about some line or something like that, but things like Roshi's worst scenes, and Tien being left in the dust.

So far in this tournament i've gotten twists (which were more effective those times i stayed away from spoilers), good/interesting fights with great animations, good interactions between characters, good moments from different characters, a good usage of Goku's new form (to be honest i thought this would be a low point in the arc ala Trunks Ikari), character development for some characters, interesting warriors from other universes and some comedy. Of course this hasn't always been the case (looking at you U4, Tien and Jiren) , most of the time it delivered in these points so i'm good with it.The arc could have been better, and from what i read from most of reasonable complaints, there are a lot of things that could be done differently, but still what works, simply works.

[perucho1990]

It shouldve something creative like Hero Academia Sport Festivals Arc.

The battle Royal there involved around 42 people, and we got a good bunch of characters that became relevant.

Hopefully Toyotaro gets influenced by it because he is a big Hero Academia fan.

[BWri]

Yes, this arc is awful and I'd argue that it's the worst arc in the series. I don't understand the people who say "You should have known, nobody can pull this off. 80 new characters? You're crazy! It's a battle royale, too!" while ignoring the fact that a) multiple other series introduce dozens of characters in big-scale arcs (with a messy structure as the setting, like an invasion or a war) and manage to execute them well, or at least better than DBS has, and b) you didn't need to introduce 80 new characters this arc. Not only did the series have 30 episodes between the Black arc and the ToP to introduce the new fighters and give them some degree of depth beforehand, but this arc didn't need to come so soon into the series' run. There's absolutely no excuse. The arc was poorly planned and it's showing.

I agree 100%. I'll also add that there was no need to flesh out all eighty characters. The universes themselves should have had an overall feeling or plot. The dangerous members of each universe should've been given more focus, while the cool looking fodder enemies had less development (like now) but provided the necessary threats based on their abilities. The fodder could've been fed to all the relevant characters. It's crazy to think that the threats of this tournament (U11) barely have any eliminations.

[puar]

yes it is. all opponents are just mere obstacles for U7 to pass. they are all weaklings who bearly in the level of frieza from the namek sega maximum. the pacing is terrible. the U6 namkeians dident got enough screen time and they werent interesting. there are no other universes fighting each other everything is focused only on U7. its terrible. garbage. plain and simple. this arc is a dissapointment. its terrible. its cringey. its unwatchable. every fight ends with the same boring kamehamhea. 90% of the opponents fall from the stage by either a kamehameha or another ki blast. its bullshit.

[BlueBasilisk]

The arc is structured a lot like a wrestling PPV which works both for and against it. Those can geat really dull, exhausting, and frustrating to watch at 3-5 hours, let alone stretched over 9-13 months. The exhibition match was the pre-show, the recruitment arc was the promo section and the Tournament is the big event. The execution reminds me of the Royal Rumble where you have some focus matches with big names while the rest mill around in the background doing some half-assed fighting before getting thrown out of the ring or bide their time. Now we're in the late part of the event where the 28th, 29th, and 30th entries are dropping into the fray, the chaff is almost gone and the main show-down is about to begin.

[Artorias]

There was no way they could make any of this worked and everyone who has stayed with super would know that.


I just can't fathom anyone thinking they could have pulled this off, I don't even a combine duo of togashi and araki could pull this off.


we watch it for dumb fun, if you wanted good writing, you should checked out the moment battle royale was listed.

I used to think that the reason no anime had ever attempted something like this was because of the strain on the production side of things, but now I realize it's because it's pretty much impossible to craft a good narrative in this style. The best writers in the world couldn't make this work, let alone Toei/Toriyama, two writers that struggle to make a basic heroes vs big bad story make sense.

[Faisal Shourov]

The only gripe I have is how useless this arc is. It is supposed to have the most tension in Dragon Ball history due to threat of multiverse erasure, but we already know nothing would happen to U7. Nobody is fearing the fate of Goku and Vegeta, there is zero tension. At least we lost something in Future Trunks arc. Also the Universes that were erased might be wished back

So really, what's the point of this arc? Is there any point except seeing people fighting nonstop for 40 episodes? There's not world building, plot building, character development...nothing. And of course anticlimactic drama and zero actual tension. There's nothing at stake here, even though we're supposed to believe there will be

[Totamo]

Yes, this arc is awful and I'd argue that it's the worst arc in the series. I don't understand the people who say "You should have known, nobody can pull this off. 80 new characters? You're crazy! It's a battle royale, too!" while ignoring the fact that a) multiple other series introduce dozens of characters in big-scale arcs (with a messy structure as the setting, like an invasion or a war) and manage to execute them well, or at least better than DBS has, and b) you didn't need to introduce 80 new characters this arc. Not only did the series have 30 episodes between the Black arc and the ToP to introduce the new fighters and give them some degree of depth beforehand, but this arc didn't need to come so soon into the series' run. There's absolutely no excuse. The arc was poorly planned and it's showing.

Name 3 that did it in this same battle Royale style in 1 arc.

[Doctor.]

Yes, this arc is awful and I'd argue that it's the worst arc in the series. I don't understand the people who say "You should have known, nobody can pull this off. 80 new characters? You're crazy! It's a battle royale, too!" while ignoring the fact that a) multiple other series introduce dozens of characters in big-scale arcs (with a messy structure as the setting, like an invasion or a war) and manage to execute them well, or at least better than DBS has, and b) you didn't need to introduce 80 new characters this arc. Not only did the series have 30 episodes between the Black arc and the ToP to introduce the new fighters and give them some degree of depth beforehand, but this arc didn't need to come so soon into the series' run. There's absolutely no excuse. The arc was poorly planned and it's showing.

Name 3 that did it in this same battle Royale style in 1 arc.

Bleach's Soul Society arc, an invasion, My Hero Academia's Sports Festival, a battle royale-esque tournament, and Hunter x Hunter's Chimera Ant arc, another invasion (or even HxH's Hunter Exam to a lesser extent as an arc that introduces a lot of characters in a messy setting). You'll claim that they don't have such a large number of characters, but that's ignoring all the other suggestions I made in my post, such as introducing characters in the thirty episodes of preparation they had.

[Lord Beerus]

Yes, this arc is awful and I'd argue that it's the worst arc in the series. I don't understand the people who say "You should have known, nobody can pull this off. 80 new characters? You're crazy! It's a battle royale, too!" while ignoring the fact that a) multiple other series introduce dozens of characters in big-scale arcs (with a messy structure as the setting, like an invasion or a war) and manage to execute them well, or at least better than DBS has, and b) you didn't need to introduce 80 new characters this arc. Not only did the series have 30 episodes between the Black arc and the ToP to introduce the new fighters and give them some degree of depth beforehand, but this arc didn't need to come so soon into the series' run. There's absolutely no excuse. The arc was poorly planned and it's showing.

Name 3 that did it in this same battle Royale style in 1 arc.

Bleach's Soul Society arc, an invasion, My Hero Academia's Sports Festival, a battle royale-esque tournament, and Hunter x Hunter's Chimera Ant arc, another invasion (or even HxH's Hunter Exam to a lesser extent as an arc that introduces a lot of characters in a messy setting). You'll claim that they don't have such a large number of characters, but that's ignoring all the other suggestions I made in my post, such as introducing characters in the thirty episodes of preparation they had.

Thirty episodes? They didn't have that long to get ready for the tournament.

[Doctor.]

Name 3 that did it in this same battle Royale style in 1 arc.

Bleach's Soul Society arc, an invasion, My Hero Academia's Sports Festival, a battle royale-esque tournament, and Hunter x Hunter's Chimera Ant arc, another invasion (or even HxH's Hunter Exam to a lesser extent as an arc that introduces a lot of characters in a messy setting). You'll claim that they don't have such a large number of characters, but that's ignoring all the other suggestions I made in my post, such as introducing characters in the thirty episodes of preparation they had.

Thirty episodes? They didn't have that long to get ready for the tournament.

End of the Zamasu arc - Episode 67.
Start of the Tournament of Power - Episode 97.

30 episodes.

[Totamo]

Yes, this arc is awful and I'd argue that it's the worst arc in the series. I don't understand the people who say "You should have known, nobody can pull this off. 80 new characters? You're crazy! It's a battle royale, too!" while ignoring the fact that a) multiple other series introduce dozens of characters in big-scale arcs (with a messy structure as the setting, like an invasion or a war) and manage to execute them well, or at least better than DBS has, and b) you didn't need to introduce 80 new characters this arc. Not only did the series have 30 episodes between the Black arc and the ToP to introduce the new fighters and give them some degree of depth beforehand, but this arc didn't need to come so soon into the series' run. There's absolutely no excuse. The arc was poorly planned and it's showing.

Name 3 that did it in this same battle Royale style in 1 arc.

Bleach's Soul Society arc, an invasion, My Hero Academia's Sports Festival, a battle royale-esque tournament, and Hunter x Hunter's Chimera Ant arc, another invasion (or even HxH's Hunter Exam to a lesser extent as an arc that introduces a lot of characters in a messy setting). You'll claim that they don't have such a large number of characters, but that's ignoring all the other suggestions I made in my post, such as introducing characters in the thirty episodes of preparation they had.

My friend, that was a lot of reaching and nowhere the near the same thing. its not even about the number, its how that large cast was used.

Bleach soul society: most of the characters introduced in that arc, didn't actual fight in that arc like how many lieutenants actually fought Second, most of those characters didn't get backstories in that arc. Third, there was more than one plot going on, unlike here and the last one, that wasn't a back to back battle arc.


My hero academia: sports festival: 1. Most of those new characters didn't get development or screentime. 2. That whole thing was just class 1A kicking everyone's asses because they had the best quirks. 3. That wasn't a back to back battle arc.

Hunter hunter chimera arc: Most of those ants didn't even matter and just got bodied by hunters or the phantom troupe. 2. Meruem was the main focus of the chimera ant, not the ants as a whole. 3. That wasn't a back to back to battle arc.

I said find 3 in a battle royale format, back to back fighting. No breaks. because thats what this is.



"They could have introduced characters during the 30 episodes before." You just said it was possible to introduce a bunch of characters all at once and flesh most of them out, why would you say this if you thought it was possible?


Come on, I have a problem with how this whole thing was introduced but after it was, I knew they couldn't pull off because given this setup no one could. Yet, you expected them too and don't say you didn't, otherwise, you would know what the writing was going to be like.

[MKCSTEALTH]

I feel the only real sense of a "Battle Royal" was the few times U6 fought U11. When we saw the other Universes fighting one another at the beginning.

It did devolve into U7 vs everyone, and even then it still can't seem to handle multiple battles at once very well from a pacing point of view. EP 118 was probably the best we've gotten from that.

[supersaiyanZero]

Name 3 that did it in this same battle Royale style in 1 arc.

Bleach's Soul Society arc, an invasion, My Hero Academia's Sports Festival, a battle royale-esque tournament, and Hunter x Hunter's Chimera Ant arc, another invasion (or even HxH's Hunter Exam to a lesser extent as an arc that introduces a lot of characters in a messy setting). You'll claim that they don't have such a large number of characters, but that's ignoring all the other suggestions I made in my post, such as introducing characters in the thirty episodes of preparation they had.

My friend, that was a lot of reaching and nowhere the near the same thing. its not even about the number, its how that large cast was used.

Bleach soul society: most of the characters introduced in that arc, didn't actual fight in that arc like how many lieutenants actually fought Second, most of those characters didn't get backstories in that arc. Third, there was more than one plot going on, unlike here and the last one, that wasn't a back to back battle arc.


My hero academia: sports festival: 1. Most of those new characters didn't get development or screentime. 2. That whole thing was just class 1A kicking everyone's asses because they had the best quirks. 3. That wasn't a back to back battle arc.

Hunter hunter chimera arc: Most of those ants didn't even matter and just got bodied by hunters or the phantom troupe. 2. Meruem was the main focus of the chimera ant, not the ants as a whole. 3. That wasn't a back to back to battle arc.

I said find 3 in a battle royale format, back to back fighting. No breaks. because thats what this is.



"They could have introduced characters during the 30 episodes before." You just said it was possible to introduce a bunch of characters all at once and flesh most of them out, why would you say this if you thought it was possible?


Come on, I have a problem with how this whole thing was introduced but after it was, I knew they couldn't pull off because given this setup no one could. Yet, you expected them too and don't say you didn't, otherwise, you would know what the writing was going to be like.

What do you mean by back to back battle arc? And are we not counting One Piece's Marineford arc? The ToP is written like it's a tournament. What you are saying is that somehow DBS is in groundbreaking territory and therefore should be given some leeway for the tremendous amount of horrible decisions it has made. Nothing can be further from the truth, as Doctor said there were 30 (!) episodes to prepare and they pissed them all away. This idea has been done before and has been executed with much more precision than the sloppy mess that we've gotten with this arc.

[Totamo]

Bleach's Soul Society arc, an invasion, My Hero Academia's Sports Festival, a battle royale-esque tournament, and Hunter x Hunter's Chimera Ant arc, another invasion (or even HxH's Hunter Exam to a lesser extent as an arc that introduces a lot of characters in a messy setting). You'll claim that they don't have such a large number of characters, but that's ignoring all the other suggestions I made in my post, such as introducing characters in the thirty episodes of preparation they had.

My friend, that was a lot of reaching and nowhere the near the same thing. its not even about the number, its how that large cast was used.

Bleach soul society: most of the characters introduced in that arc, didn't actual fight in that arc like how many lieutenants actually fought Second, most of those characters didn't get backstories in that arc. Third, there was more than one plot going on, unlike here and the last one, that wasn't a back to back battle arc.


My hero academia: sports festival: 1. Most of those new characters didn't get development or screentime. 2. That whole thing was just class 1A kicking everyone's asses because they had the best quirks. 3. That wasn't a back to back battle arc.

Hunter hunter chimera arc: Most of those ants didn't even matter and just got bodied by hunters or the phantom troupe. 2. Meruem was the main focus of the chimera ant, not the ants as a whole. 3. That wasn't a back to back to battle arc.

I said find 3 in a battle royale format, back to back fighting. No breaks. because thats what this is.



"They could have introduced characters during the 30 episodes before." You just said it was possible to introduce a bunch of characters all at once and flesh most of them out, why would you say this if you thought it was possible?


Come on, I have a problem with how this whole thing was introduced but after it was, I knew they couldn't pull off because given this setup no one could. Yet, you expected them too and don't say you didn't, otherwise, you would know what the writing was going to be like.

What do you mean by back to back battle arc? And are we not counting One Piece's Marineford arc? The ToP is written like it's a tournament. What you are saying is that somehow DBS is in groundbreaking territory and therefore should be given some leeway for the tremendous amount of horrible decisions it has made. Nothing can be further from the truth, as Doctor said there were 30 (!) episodes to prepare and they pissed them all away. This idea has been done before and has been executed with much more precision than the sloppy mess that we've gotten with this arc.

You mean the arc filled with previously ESTABLISHED characters?! And what I mean back to back battle is just straight fighting and no breaks in between.


I said, Name 3 arcs that introduced this many characters in a battle format and developed them all in the same arc. He didn't tell me one. Can you?

[Lord Beerus]

Bleach's Soul Society arc, an invasion, My Hero Academia's Sports Festival, a battle royale-esque tournament, and Hunter x Hunter's Chimera Ant arc, another invasion (or even HxH's Hunter Exam to a lesser extent as an arc that introduces a lot of characters in a messy setting). You'll claim that they don't have such a large number of characters, but that's ignoring all the other suggestions I made in my post, such as introducing characters in the thirty episodes of preparation they had.

Thirty episodes? They didn't have that long to get ready for the tournament.

End of the Zamasu arc - Episode 67.
Start of the Tournament of Power - Episode 97.

30 episodes.

But how would could that work? The Universal arc didn't begin until Episode 77. And the actual circumstances of the Tournament of Power itself weren't made clear until Episode 80, and then narrative could only start focusing on the other universes after Episode 83. They had about 16 episodes to cover everything. That all included, establishing which characters would compose of Team Universe 7 and justifying their inclusion in the team, Android 17 returning to the cast, the subplot of Majin Boo sleeping and Freeza replacing him, and six other universes.

And besides, most of time, all of the the characters who will fight in the tournament aren't revealed until just before the tournament begins.

[Doctor.]

Thirty episodes? They didn't have that long to get ready for the tournament.

End of the Zamasu arc - Episode 67.
Start of the Tournament of Power - Episode 97.

30 episodes.

But how would could that work? The Universal arc didn't begin until Episode 77. And the actual circumstances of the Tournament of Power itself weren't made clear until Episode 80, and then narrative could only start focusing on the other universes after Episode 83. They had about 16 episodes to cover everything. That all included, establishing which characters would compose of Team Universe 7 and justifying their inclusion in the team, Android 17 returning to the cast, the subplot of Majin Boo sleeping and Freeza replacing him, and six other universes.

And besides, most of time, all of the the characters who will fight in the tournament aren't revealed until just before the tournament begins.

It's called good planning. Properly planned, the arc would start off shortly after the Zamasu arc. And even with 16 episodes, that's enough time to introduce at least some of the new characters.

[Lord Beerus]

End of the Zamasu arc - Episode 67.
Start of the Tournament of Power - Episode 97.

30 episodes.

But how would could that work? The Universal arc didn't begin until Episode 77. And the actual circumstances of the Tournament of Power itself weren't made clear until Episode 80, and then narrative could only start focusing on the other universes after Episode 83. They had about 16 episodes to cover everything. That all included, establishing which characters would compose of Team Universe 7 and justifying their inclusion in the team, Android 17 returning to the cast, the subplot of Majin Boo sleeping and Freeza replacing him, and six other universes.

And besides, most of time, all of the the characters who will fight in the tournament aren't revealed until just before the tournament begins.

It's called good planning. Properly planned, the arc would start off shortly after the Zamasu arc. And even with 16 episodes, that's enough time to introduce at least some of the new characters.

The audience have no context to believe that the next next arc, right after the Future Trunks arc, would be an arc like the Universal Survival arc. Not every person who watches Dragon Ball Super scours online to find out what the latest "spoilers" or "leaks" would be to potential future episodes. There a lot of fans who follow Super and base what they think the next episode will be on the 30 second episode preview.

What kind of context could you provide to explore the other universes, especially right after an arc like the Future Trunks arc? It would be extremely jarring, at least from a narrative perspective, to jump so, let's say, Universe 2. What purpose would an episode like that serve? Why is story suddenly shifting to what other universes are doing? Why should, or would, anybody care about that?

An episode that would focus on Universe 2 or Universe 4 or Universe 9 would be random and unnecessary given the context of why those universe are being explored hasn't been provided. You want people to be intrigued by the concept of other universes? You have to first provide a context in the narrative that justifies the reason for hopping into what other universes are doing. Otherwise, those kind of episodes would basically be seen as disposable and time-wasting.