KingKaash wrote:Golden Frieza gets knocked out to base by SSJB Goku punch in front of Beerus and Whis. Android 17 goes head to head with SSJB Goku and doesn't seem bothered much. And I personally like to believe that SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta are very close to each other in power. So Android 17 looks like he's in the Golden Frieza/SSJB Vegeta tier but you keep laughing and I'll keep using facts
SSB GOKU got knocked out to base by Golden Frieza's punch. You've got it upside down.
Android 17 held his ground against SSB Goku, but SSB Goku didn't seem particularly bothered as well. They were both testing each other, but neither came out struggling, so we can't be sure.
Now don't get me wrong, 17 clearly had a huge power boost, but I don't think he's at SSB/Golden levels. Did you see 17 overpowering a warrior that Gohan couldn't? Notice the 'overpowering'.
KingKaash wrote:Golden Frieza gets knocked out to base by SSJB Goku punch in front of Beerus and Whis. Android 17 goes head to head with SSJB Goku and doesn't seem bothered much. And I personally like to believe that SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta are very close to each other in power. So Android 17 looks like he's in the Golden Frieza/SSJB Vegeta tier but you keep laughing and I'll keep using facts
SSB GOKU got knocked out to base by Golden Frieza's punch. You've got it upside down.
Android 17 held his ground against SSB Goku, but SSB Goku didn't seem particularly bothered as well. They were both testing each other, but neither came out struggling, so we can't be sure.
Now don't get me wrong, 17 clearly had a huge power boost, but I don't think he's at SSB/Golden levels. Did you see 17 overpowering a warrior that Gohan couldn't? Notice the 'overpowering'.
He could have been nerfed secretly like kale or brianne.
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Ilikepictures-meh wrote:Nope. Hoping she along with her brother sticks around to the inevitable moment where Jiren takes out the majority of team U7. Also hope she gives Dyspo a run for his money along with 17.
I agree with this sentiment (except for the Dyspo part as I want him to keep his top tier status). I am surprised that she's made it this far, but am also glad that she's still here even though she outlasted my favorite character Piccolo. I really just want to see a different lineup for U7 than Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Frieza. That's a little too predictable for me. I really just want to see one of the Saiyans eliminated and among the three, Vegeta is my candidate as I don't see him adding much to this tournament. To me he's Goku's second fiddle in just about every way, even fight choreography. I'll promptly shut my face if they give him another moment like his rematch with GB Rose (Bejita Ouji!!!), or make him as cool as his manga counterpart.
Ideal final 5 would be
Goku, Frieza, Gohan, 17, 18
Ideal final 4
Goku, Frieza, Gohan, 18 (after 17 sacrifices himself saving her)
Ideal final 3
Goku, Frieza, Gohan (at the end of the day I guess I'm still pretty boring)
Ideal final 2
Gohan, Frieza
Ideal winner
Jiren (But Gohan or Frieza winning would be interesting too)
OMGHYPE Ideal Winner
Ultra Instinct Frieza (it'll never happen)
Actually I don't see gohan adding anything especially when he just went to full power he's done for and besides it's obvious the final will be goku,vegeta and Freeza gohan done for he had enough shine same with the androids.
KingKaash wrote:
Android 17 is in the Gohan/Vegeta/Golden Frieza tier so it would be huge if U3 eliminates him.
Personally I hope Android 17 stays and takes out Dyspo before getting crushed by Jiren. I want to see Android 17 go all out and still not be able to do a thing against Jiren before Jiren eliminates him.
17 in golden frieza and vegeta level? hahahahahahahahahahahaha
Golden Frieza gets knocked out to base by SSJB Goku punch in front of Beerus and Whis. Android 17 goes head to head with SSJB Goku and doesn't seem bothered much. And I personally like to believe that SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta are very close to each other in power. So Android 17 looks like he's in the Golden Frieza/SSJB Vegeta tier but you keep laughing and I'll keep using facts
no facts here. there's no official explanation anywhere that says how powerful 17 is. you can speculate that 17 is as powerful as golden frieza or SSJB vegeta but it is in no way a fact and is very debatable.
#18 has been artificially propped up since episode 99. Without the intervention of others, she would have been the first to go. I think the studio has already given one of the most handsome narrative concessions of anyone in this tournament. She's long since had her "dues" paid and should be retired, ideally with #17 following suit. Universe 3 was the optimal time to give them a climactic performance given their mutual qualities as artificial fighters. If Toei is going to stick to generalities then the last fighters remaining will be the three Saiyans with Freeza ambling about at the rear.
Kataphrut wrote:I feel like the best decision would be to have her AND 17 go out to Universe 3. That'll give 3 some runs on the board, and narrow it down to the four most important U7 fighters versus the three most important Universe 11 characters for the finale. Then, if Vegeta does his job (so to speak) against Jiren, you'll be left with three on three, and the tension that comes with Freeza being the most reliably powerful member remaining.
The lack of tension has been one of the arcs biggest issue, but I honestly think the Androids losing to 3 would do a lot to remedy it. While they obviously don't stand a chance against Toppo or Jiren, having them in there gives Universe 7 a safety net in numbers, since they would likely be hanging back and avoiding direct confrontation. If they're gone, you're left with tired Goku, unreliable Freeza, and the underpowered Gohan and Vegeta taking on three powerful and well-rested Pride Troopers. That's a recipe for a decent final battle.
How is that "the best decision" ? 17 has been brought back and promoted and hyped up as a top tier ! he shouldn't go out with his sister who is basically fodder.
puar wrote:both her and 17 need to be eliminated because they past their prime already. they been in the spotlight enough and now its time for vegeta to shine
Vegeta has more eliminations than 17 and more screen time aswell. 17 has been just as promoted as Vegeta in this arc and even more hyped up aswell. 17 shouldn't go without a big fight imo
Well yeah she had to ! she's been sticking like a cockroach. i really find her annoying she's been buffed up and 17 has been nerfed so they can fight together which is BS. she needs to go the hell out so 17 can take on someone his own tier and have a fight worthy of his hype.
Lapislettuce wrote:Well yeah she had to ! she's been sticking like a cockroach. i really find her annoying she's been buffed up and 17 has been nerfed so they can fight together which is BS. she needs to go the hell out so 17 can take on someone his own tier and have a fight worthy of his hype.
I really don't understand why 17 fans hate how he likes to team-up with his sister, the person he knows and loves the most from the team to take on other fighters, but whatever.
Also you act like 17 and 18 have been fighting together since the start of the tournament which is false. 17 has had plenty of opportunity to fight with someone from his "own tier" as you say, but he did not do that.
Lapislettuce wrote:Well yeah she had to ! she's been sticking like a cockroach. i really find her annoying she's been buffed up and 17 has been nerfed so they can fight together which is BS. she needs to go the hell out so 17 can take on someone his own tier and have a fight worthy of his hype.
I really don't understand why 17 fans hate how he likes to team-up with his sister, the person he knows and loves the most from the team to take on other fighters, but whatever.
Also you act like 17 and 18 have been fighting together since the start of the tournament which is false. 17 has had plenty of opportunity to fight with someone from his "own tier" as you say, but he did not do that.
Because that doesn't make sense at all for him to team up with her considering he can one shot characters that she has trouble with. for instance that robot guy they took together ? 17 wrecked him alone 3 episodes ago but thanks to her as usual he was nerfed and they had to team up against him. i'm sorry but i love 17 as a stand alone character and he has much more potential than just being a clone of 18 like FighterZ is trying to push on us.
Lapislettuce wrote:
Because that doesn't make sense at all for him to team up with her considering he can one shot characters that she has trouble with. for instance that robot guy they took together ? 17 wrecked him alone 3 episodes ago but thanks to her as usual he was nerfed and they had to team up against him. i'm sorry but i love 17 as a stand alone character and he has much more potential than just being a clone of 18 like FighterZ is trying to push on us.
He's probably surpressing himself, I don't understand what's the big deal. 17 and 18 have always been a popular duo that people have been waiting to see reunite for a long time now. Did you really expect them not to team up in this tournament? With the robot guy you can clearly see that they were both having fun with him because he was just that weak.
Lapislettuce wrote:Well yeah she had to ! she's been sticking like a cockroach. i really find her annoying she's been buffed up and 17 has been nerfed so they can fight together which is BS. she needs to go the hell out so 17 can take on someone his own tier and have a fight worthy of his hype.
I really don't understand why 17 fans hate how he likes to team-up with his sister, the person he knows and loves the most from the team to take on other fighters, but whatever.
Also you act like 17 and 18 have been fighting together since the start of the tournament which is false. 17 has had plenty of opportunity to fight with someone from his "own tier" as you say, but he did not do that.
Because that doesn't make sense at all for him to team up with her considering he can one shot characters that she has trouble with. for instance that robot guy they took together ? 17 wrecked him alone 3 episodes ago but thanks to her as usual he was nerfed and they had to team up against him. i'm sorry but i love 17 as a stand alone character and he has much more potential than just being a clone of 18 like FighterZ is trying to push on us.
They're really loved as duo though, at least that's what I got from the Japanese fandom. There's no denying he's the stronger of the two, because for whatever reason 18's power just had to be reduced (based on the info about Gero's robots) but they're twins and they were designed as a pair.
As for this nerfing concept - I've said this before, we shouldn't put too much stock into what each little skirmish implies. Toei cares about visual spectacle more than power consistency.
Michsi wrote:
They're really loved as duo though, at least that's what I got from the Japanese fandom. There's no denying he's the stronger of the two, because for whatever reason 18's power just had to be reduced (based on the info about Gero's robots) but they're twins and they were designed as a pair.
As for this nerfing concept - I've said this before, we shouldn't put too much stock into what each little skirmish implies. Toei cares about visual spectacle more than power consistency.
Probably the barrier. 17 has a barrier while 18 doesn't have one, I think that's what Gero reduced about 18's power. 18 knows the destructo disc now though, which is something that 17 doesn't know from what we have seen. This was in Z though, in DBS 17 is around SSJ3 or above level, while 18's current power is rather questionable.
Michsi wrote:
They're really loved as duo though, at least that's what I got from the Japanese fandom. There's no denying he's the stronger of the two, because for whatever reason 18's power just had to be reduced (based on the info about Gero's robots) but they're twins and they were designed as a pair.
As for this nerfing concept - I've said this before, we shouldn't put too much stock into what each little skirmish implies. Toei cares about visual spectacle more than power consistency.
Probably the barrier. 17 has a barrier while 18 doesn't have one, I think that's what Gero reduced about 18's power. 18 knows the destructo disc now though, which is something that 17 doesn't know from what we have seen. This was in Z though, in DBS 17 is around SSJ3 or above level, while 18's current power is rather questionable.
I think the reason was that she had her battle with Vegeta first in that arc, and in order to heighten the stakes for Piccolo vs. 17, he's been put above her in power. It really never made any sense for there to be a gap between them given that their power is purely due to mechanical reasons, at least when they first appeared.
KingKaash wrote:Golden Frieza gets knocked out to base by SSJB Goku punch in front of Beerus and Whis. Android 17 goes head to head with SSJB Goku and doesn't seem bothered much. And I personally like to believe that SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta are very close to each other in power. So Android 17 looks like he's in the Golden Frieza/SSJB Vegeta tier but you keep laughing and I'll keep using facts
SSB GOKU got knocked out to base by Golden Frieza's punch. You've got it upside down.
Android 17 held his ground against SSB Goku, but SSB Goku didn't seem particularly bothered as well. They were both testing each other, but neither came out struggling, so we can't be sure.
Now don't get me wrong, 17 clearly had a huge power boost, but I don't think he's at SSB/Golden levels. Did you see 17 overpowering a warrior that Gohan couldn't? Notice the 'overpowering'.
Yes Goku also fell to base but you're acting like Golden Frieza was standing over him without a scratch. Personally for my logic, anyone who can have Goku fight in SSJB without getting completely crushed (like Ribrianne did) is near the SSJB tier.
"Gohan, let it go. It is not a sin to fight for the right cause. There are those who words alone will not reach. Cell is such a being. I know how you feel Gohan, you are gentle, you do not like to hurt. I know because I too have learned these feelings. But it is because you cherish life that you must protect it. Please drop your restraints. Protect the life I once loved. You have the strength, my scanners sensed it..." -Android 16
