DBZ had its own "Battle Royale" and it trumps the ToP

[JazzMazz]

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Your comparison makes no sense. Dodoria and Zarbon might have been stronger than Vegeta, but they were in the same ballpark. So much so that even when Vegeta took on Zarbon a second time after healing from his first defeat, it still wasn't easy. It's not "obvious power inflation" like you put it and comes nowhere close to Goku absolutely annihilating Beerus. There was a logical progression in strength for Vegeta in the Namek saga be it Zenkais and whatnot.

How are characters, blowing away other characters which we are told are as strong, or stronger than the previous biggest baddest threat, with little to no effort, not an example of power inflation? Vegeta's complete annihilation of Cui and Dodoria, are super clear examples of the power escalation of the series. Both those guys existed to demonstrate how much more powerful Vegeta had gotten from his time on Namek, and push forward the idea that Vegeta was improving.

To use an in universe example, Vegeta destroying Cui and Dodoria is the equivalent of Beerus absolutely wrecking Majin Buu, who was the main big bad of the previous arc that everyone was shitting their pants over, or Majin Buu annihilating Dabura, who is made out to be a Cell level foe, who was the big bad of the previous arc. Do you see what I'm getting at here?

No it’s not Vegeta and Cui we’re already the same power level before Vegeta even left for Earth. Vegeta came back 0.3x stronger not 3x stronger. It’s obviously it’s power inflation no one ever said it wasn’t. But it isn’t massive at all. It’s incredibly progressive and measured. You keep flipping back between arguing whether there is power inflation and whether there is massive power inflation. The first is acknowledged but when confronted with the second point you flip back to the first because it’s the only thing you can prove and no one has disputed because it’s true. But again it is not massive power inflation like you claim. It’s progress at this point.

The numbers don't need to increase expotentially for the power inflation not to be massive. In Dragonball, just because the numbers were considerably smaller, doesn't mean that their wasn't a huge power inflation between say Ten and Piccolo Diamo.
The same applies to Dodoria and Cui. It doesn't matter that Vegeta is only 0.3x stronger, all that matters is that he was able to effortlessly kill one guy that was as strong as he was on Earth, and another guy who was even stronger. The numbers behind it don't matter. I don't care if Buu is only 0.3x stronger than Dabura(whose basically Cell), the fact his able to kill him effortlessly shows how much more powerful said villain or character is. Meaning the actual numbers behind is next to irrelevant.

[sangofe]

When I read the title I thought you were talking about the one in Buu arc with Mighty Mask vs C18 vs Satan vs the other two guys 99% of this fanbase don't remember their names...

Goku/Vegeta vs Universe 9 is much better than that to be honest, and this isn't a good comparison.

ToP = 20+ episodes of fighting and still counting.
That fight = Not even 3 minutes...

For you to make such comparison, I don't think you know what you're talking about. This would only make sense if both battle royals had around the same length.
You can compare that scene to the GoDs battle royal in DBS manga, and as expected Toyotaro delivered it.

It's not hard to make a short fight look cool, but to do a Tournament with non-stop fighting that lasts 20+episodes, while keeping art/animation consistency and still delivering memorable scenes, now that's really hard. Truly a milestone, I must say, because I'm sure not every studio can pull it off.

I'm not complaining that they aren't bringing us A+ level animation for over 20+ episodes consistently. People like you grossly misinterpret my post because you're rushing to blindly come to Super's defense about anything. For you to say that Goku/Vegeta vs Universe 9 is much better implies to me that you don't know what you're talking about. In that simple 2 minute scene there was excellent choreography, a sense of atmosphere, characters are clearly expressive and you can see the stakes in their movements/faces, the hard hitting blows have more impact than most of Super's tenure let alone that fight you were mentioning. (and I'm not saying that fight was piss poor, mind you. it was decent by Super's standards.)

And for you to say that Super reached a MILESTONE? Are you kidding me? 20+ episodes of poor fights mixed in with insane amounts of exposition and 2 minute introduction/backstories to try and develop characters is nothing short of poor planning. In this 2 minute clip we don't really get to know who these Namekians are, but we already have more of a feeling of what their convictions are and what they are fighting for, Frieza/Dodoria/Zarbon's personalities come through subtly enough for us to pick up on who those characters are, and there is a real sense of what's at stake here.

This is not an apt comparison in the slightest. It is nicely directed, I'll give it that.

What a horrible comparison. That fight is like what 2 minutes? If you expect the whole top to have animation like that then you're in for a rude awakening.

It's not a bad comparision. It's an example of what an all out brawl can and should look like. You can zero in on universes and deliver something similar - and by the way, I don't expect the animation to be like that all the time. Hell, I don't expect all the fights in the ToP to be like this at all. There are many more things at work here in this scene than just the fluid animation, there is atmosphere (When the Namek gets serious the background turns in to a flame like color to express the seriousness of the situation he is in and his reaction. It's little artistic designs like that that really bring the scene to life), there are good character moments that subtly reveal to us who they are even if they aren't all that important, there is a tone to the situation that matches the circumstance they are in, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU4L_ILKHZA

It's a very interesting comparison because both are trying to convey a larger scale battle, yet the one animated over 2 decades earlier..well I'll let you draw your own conclusions. You can argue that the ToP is (in theory) on a much larger scale, but you can still scale down the battles to include more participants with interesting choreography instead of what Super has done..which is pretty much another tournament just disguised as a battle royale. It's becoming increasingly frustrating to watch and what I don't understand is how someone who makes the decisions at Toei can't see the difference in quality and the only conclusion I can come up with is that..they don't care?

Oh look, repeated frames, and fodder enemies that no one cares about.

A battle royal is when everyone dukes it out in open field. Ofc ToP isnt like that, its team battles. Since it isnt one on one it is universe vs universe. A true battle royal, would have needed to be so that every character is an enemy to each other. basically 80 character that all want or need to defeat each other, not defeat teams.

And i dont see how that video is awesome. You have got to be joking. There is nothing epic about it, just randoms getting their ass kicked by slightly less namekian fodder, with Zarbon, Dodoria and freaking Freeza watching, who could vaporize all of them in a blink of an eye.

Fights need to be epic, u cant realistically show a battle royal, since that would mean, constantly seeing all the fighters fight from afar, and everyone would just throw random ki blasts n stuff around and people would randomly fall off the arena.

So far, i think they did a good job, even tho there were some not so interesting episodes. But what is good about this arc, is that it is very rewatchable for me. Since it isnt mystery or what not.

Repeated frames and fodder enemies? You mean, the entirety of the ToP arc? Are you joking?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU4L_ILKHZA

It's a very interesting comparison because both are trying to convey a larger scale battle, yet the one animated over 2 decades earlier..well I'll let you draw your own conclusions. You can argue that the ToP is (in theory) on a much larger scale, but you can still scale down the battles to include more participants with interesting choreography instead of what Super has done..which is pretty much another tournament just disguised as a battle royale. It's becoming increasingly frustrating to watch and what I don't understand is how someone who makes the decisions at Toei can't see the difference in quality and the only conclusion I can come up with is that..they don't care?

There's absolutely nothing execptional about this "battle royale" as you call it.

Edit: I knew I had seen your nick before. You're the guy who likes to shit on Super: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=40551&p=1426645#p1426645 So no surprise this post comes from you.

"Nothing exceptional": It was well animated, directed, choreographed, written, moved the story forward, subtly showed us character traits for us to start forming opinions on them, and a treat to watch even though the characters fighting didn't have that much meaning to the overall story. And yes, I have my criticisms of Super. So what? I can acknowledge it's improvements but it still has a long way for me to go to even be considered a successor to the series.

I'm honestly a lot more impressed by many scenes from Super than this. And why do you think it's "well animated, directed, choreographed, written,"

As for your opinions of Super it's off topic (and I know I started going off topic, so sorry about that) , but you don't give concrete examples of anything, and you only point to what you think is negative. Like seriously, 2/10 for super? What have you been watching, or why do you even watch?

[Saturnine]

It's a good scene for sure, but I fail to see how it's so much better than fights from the ToP. Someone's high on nostalgia apparently.

[PsionicWarrior]

It's a good scene for sure, but I fail to see how it's so much better than fights from the ToP. Someone's high on nostalgia apparently.

It's not only about fireworks, this scene is leagues ahead of anything in Super in terms of tension building, expressiveness of characters, making the viewer feel involved and well-aware of the stakes etc. From impactful blasts to studied details like Zabon hitting his own man, it's just excellent direction all around. The music also contributes a lot and matches the frames perfectly.

Now this doesn't mean Super sucks lol

[MKCSTEALTH]

Honestly that's kind of what we have now: you have several people from one side vs several from another (in this case Namekians vs Frieza Force)

[Saturnine]

It's a good scene for sure, but I fail to see how it's so much better than fights from the ToP. Someone's high on nostalgia apparently.

It's not only about fireworks, this scene is leagues ahead of anything in Super in terms of tension building, expressiveness of characters, making the viewer feel involved and well-aware of the stakes etc. From impactful blasts to studied details like Zabon hitting his own man, it's just excellent direction all around. The music also contributes a lot and matches the frames perfectly.

Now this doesn't mean Super sucks lol

Well, all these subtleties must be lost on me then.

[supersaiyanZero]

It's a good scene for sure, but I fail to see how it's so much better than fights from the ToP. Someone's high on nostalgia apparently.

If you can't see the difference, I can't help you. "High on nostalgia" is just another way of you minimizing any objectively made points and it's kind of sad.

[Saturnine]

It's a good scene for sure, but I fail to see how it's so much better than fights from the ToP. Someone's high on nostalgia apparently.

If you can't see the difference, I can't help you. "High on nostalgia" is just another way of you minimizing any objectively made points and it's kind of sad.

You could just as well say that nostalgia is what makes you think these points are objective, while in fact they're quite subjective

Also, didn't you say you'd let everyone draw their own conclusions? People really should stop saying that when they don't mean it.

[TheUltimateNinja]

No name Namekians vs fodders is now tension building? Maybe you'd like to see the farmer with a shotgun vs crops.

[supersaiyanZero]

No name Namekians vs fodders is now tension building? Maybe you'd like to see the farmer with a shotgun vs crops.

It's not even remotely the same. And, shocker, but you don't need the main character(s) in a scene to build up atmosphere. Those "no name Namekians" vs "fodders" was an excellent way of showing just what the Z fighters were getting themselves into, as well as building the antagonists. Maybe you'd just like to see more "ATATATATA"?

It's a good scene for sure, but I fail to see how it's so much better than fights from the ToP. Someone's high on nostalgia apparently.

If you can't see the difference, I can't help you. "High on nostalgia" is just another way of you minimizing any objectively made points and it's kind of sad.

You could just as well say that nostalgia is what makes you think these points are objective, while in fact they're quite subjective

Also, didn't you say you'd let everyone draw their own conclusions? People really should stop saying that when they don't mean it.

No, you can't, because I'm not. It's a common attack on anybody who criticizes Super...I can look at scenes objectively thank you very much. DBZ isn't all that great either...but it's easy to tell how much care went into both shows respectfully. My frustration is the haphazard "who gives a fuck" approach that Toei went with it's latest incarnation.

[Kanassa]

No name Namekians vs fodders is now tension building? Maybe you'd like to see the farmer with a shotgun vs crops.

You're saying like that wouldn't be the fight of the century. The epic prequel of the first man to stand up to Raditz!

[TheUltimateNinja]

No name Namekians vs fodders is now tension building? Maybe you'd like to see the farmer with a shotgun vs crops.

It's not even remotely the same. And, shocker, but you don't need the main character(s) in a scene to build up atmosphere. Those "no name Namekians" vs "fodders" was an excellent way of showing just what the Z fighters were getting themselves into, as well as building the antagonists. Maybe you'd just like to see more "ATATATATA"?

It showed that most of the opposition consisted of scrubs they could own easily. And even simple attack barrages from main characters are far more interesting because they at least progress the plot, unlike fodders pointlessly fighting other fodders before getting annihilated by the real players.

[supersaiyanZero]

No name Namekians vs fodders is now tension building? Maybe you'd like to see the farmer with a shotgun vs crops.

It's not even remotely the same. And, shocker, but you don't need the main character(s) in a scene to build up atmosphere. Those "no name Namekians" vs "fodders" was an excellent way of showing just what the Z fighters were getting themselves into, as well as building the antagonists. Maybe you'd just like to see more "ATATATATA"?

It showed that most of the opposition consisted of scrubs they could own easily. And even simple attack barrages from main characters are far more interesting because they at least progress the plot, unlike fodders pointlessly fighting other fodders before getting annihilated by the real players.

Do you have any idea what the fundamentals of good storytelling are? Because it's becoming more clear that you don't quite grasp that concept yet. There a few posts here that have valid points, but to come out and say that this didn't progress the plot is just fucking ludicrous. They introduced us to the villains, the circumstances our heroes are about to get into, and the stakes of said circumstances. In the scene we learned that Frieza is after the dragonballs, the namekian villagers are holding them and willing to die for them, and that Frieza is willing to kill anybody in his way without a second thought just to be able to collect all 7 dragonballs. Not only that, but now Frieza is in possession of TWO of them. The SAME dragonballs that our protagonists are also looking for. Frieza and co's portrayal informs us that they are both formidable and ruthless. While you may not be emotionally invested in the "no name namekians" you are able to relate to their circumstance of being bullied and killed for the sake of Frieza's goal and sets the tone for the entire Namek arc.

That coupled with the hard hitting blows from multiple combatants fighting in the same space at once, the music, the non expository dialogue (following the rule of SHOW and dont tell), the really nice choreography, the little touches like Zarbon kicking his own soldier away , and the atmosphere provided by creative decisions such as the background changing color behind the Namekian, you have yourself a very nice scene with a clear example of cause and effect. It's not a "top 10" moment in the series but scenes like this help build a story. "Simple attack barrages from main characters" are seldom more interesting and your "ATATATATAS" really don't do shit to progress the plot.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It's not even remotely the same. And, shocker, but you don't need the main character(s) in a scene to build up atmosphere. Those "no name Namekians" vs "fodders" was an excellent way of showing just what the Z fighters were getting themselves into, as well as building the antagonists. Maybe you'd just like to see more "ATATATATA"?

It showed that most of the opposition consisted of scrubs they could own easily. And even simple attack barrages from main characters are far more interesting because they at least progress the plot, unlike fodders pointlessly fighting other fodders before getting annihilated by the real players.

Do you have any idea what the fundamentals of good storytelling are? Because it's becoming more clear that you don't quite grasp that concept yet. There a few posts here that have valid points, but to come out and say that this didn't progress the plot is just fucking ludicrous. They introduced us to the villains, the circumstances our heroes are about to get into, and the stakes of said circumstances. In the scene we learned that Frieza is after the dragonballs, the namekian villagers are holding them and willing to die for them, and that Frieza is willing to kill anybody in his way without a second thought just to be able to collect all 7 dragonballs. Not only that, but now Frieza is in possession of TWO of them. The SAME dragonballs that our protagonists are also looking for. Frieza and co's portrayal informs us that they are both formidable and ruthless. While you may not be emotionally invested in the "no name namekians" you are able to relate to their circumstance of being bullied and killed for the sake of Frieza's goal and sets the tone for the entire Namek arc.

That coupled with the hard hitting blows from multiple combatants fighting in the same space at once, the music, the non expository dialogue (following the rule of SHOW and dont tell), the really nice choreography, the little touches like Zarbon kicking his own soldier away , and the atmosphere provided by creative decisions such as the background changing color behind the Namekian, you have yourself a very nice scene with a clear example of cause and effect. It's not a "top 10" moment in the series but scenes like this help build a story. "Simple attack barrages from main characters" are seldom more interesting and your "ATATATATAS" really don't do shit to progress the plot.

None of that has to do with the actual fight, rather those are plot elements that were already conveyed without this mostly pointless battle. Things would be the exact same if Dodoria instantly destroyed them on his own. The only purpose random no names serve is to die so you feel sorry for them, the History of Trunks special did this far more effectively and it didn't have random fight scenes of humans vs androids.

[majinwarman]

What a horrible comparison. That fight is like what 2 minutes? If you expect the whole top to have animation like that then you're in for a rude awakening.

This just shows that people don't understand how much time and animation goes into simple clips and that can't happen all the time. They should look at Animeajay's videos or here at the Animation Catalogue topic if they want to understand.