How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by HeroR » Mon May 14, 2018 7:53 pm

ToshioWrites wrote:
HeroR wrote:
ToshioWrites wrote:This arguing will all be pointless when Beerus power is retconned in the movie. UI will be stated to be a joke compared to Beerus. I am 99.99% sure of that
I highly doubt that to the point that I’m almost willing to bet money on it.
Beerus has no role in the show outside of being the benchmark, his power will get buffed up accordingly just like it was from BoG movie to Revival F movie.
Beerus can get a new role since almost all of Goku’s rivals started as benchmarks.

And the comparison to the previous movies doesn’t really work here when you had an entire arc building up Jiren and UI, and unlike Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, UI has been presented as the ultimate form that surpasses the gods. That and Jiren himself was just a benchmark that UI Goku crushed.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by ToshioWrites » Mon May 14, 2018 8:10 pm

HeroR wrote:
ToshioWrites wrote:
HeroR wrote:
I highly doubt that to the point that I’m almost willing to bet money on it.
Beerus has no role in the show outside of being the benchmark, his power will get buffed up accordingly just like it was from BoG movie to Revival F movie.
Beerus can get a new role since almost all of Goku’s rivals started as benchmarks.

And the comparison to the previous movies doesn’t really work here when you had an entire arc building up Jiren and UI, and unlike Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, UI has been presented as the ultimate form that surpasses the gods. That and Jiren himself was just a benchmark that UI Goku crushed.

It’s a fictional story there isn’t any “that doesn’t work here”

Ssg was 60% of Beerus in the first movie and yet the Super Saiyan version of that form was still weaker than him. Super Saiyan was built up as the greatest power in thee universe and then came the androids .

Build up doesn’t mean jack. Toriyama isn’t gonna let that stop him from wanking Beerus more

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon May 14, 2018 8:44 pm

ToshioWrites wrote:This arguing will all be pointless when Beerus power is retconned in the movie. UI will be stated to be a joke compared to Beerus. I am 99.99% sure of that
I never thought about that possibility, but I sincerely hope that doesn’t happen. UI is supposed to be a state that even the Gods of Destruction haven’t mastered. Suddenly retconning Beerus into being able to mop the floor with UI Goku would be beyond ridiculous, and would be detrimental to this idea that fighting Jiren pushed Goku beyond his limits. Plus, since Jiren is supposed to be stronger than Belmod, making UI Goku weaker than Beerus would only serve to make Beerus seem ridiculously overpowered compared to the other Gods of Destruction.

Beerus doesn’t need to continue serving as a benchmark for Goku. If Toriyama needs to give Goku a new benchmark, he should just have Whis fill that role.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by ToshioWrites » Mon May 14, 2018 8:47 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
ToshioWrites wrote:This arguing will all be pointless when Beerus power is retconned in the movie. UI will be stated to be a joke compared to Beerus. I am 99.99% sure of that
I never thought about that possibility, but I sincerely hope that doesn’t happen. UI is supposed to be a state that even the Gods of Destruction haven’t mastered. Suddenly retconning Beerus into being able to mop the floor with UI Goku would be beyond ridiculous, and would be detrimental to this idea that fighting Jiren pushed Goku beyond his limits. Plus, since Jiren is supposed to be stronger than Belmod, making UI Goku weaker than Beerus would only serve to make Beerus seem ridiculously overpowered compared to the other Gods of Destruction.

Beerus doesn’t need to continue serving as a benchmark for Goku. If Toriyama needs to give Goku a new benchmark, he should just have Whis fill that role.

You don't necessarily need UI to beat a UI user, jiren beat the crap out of goku for a some portion of episode 130 just because his raw power was so high and then goku got his next nakama boost which put him above jiren, they could easily just make it to where beerus raw power is so high, even UI Goku can't compare.

Also personally idc either way but i think its likely. Toriyama loves his cat too much

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by WittyUsername » Mon May 14, 2018 9:10 pm

ToshioWrites wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
ToshioWrites wrote:This arguing will all be pointless when Beerus power is retconned in the movie. UI will be stated to be a joke compared to Beerus. I am 99.99% sure of that
I never thought about that possibility, but I sincerely hope that doesn’t happen. UI is supposed to be a state that even the Gods of Destruction haven’t mastered. Suddenly retconning Beerus into being able to mop the floor with UI Goku would be beyond ridiculous, and would be detrimental to this idea that fighting Jiren pushed Goku beyond his limits. Plus, since Jiren is supposed to be stronger than Belmod, making UI Goku weaker than Beerus would only serve to make Beerus seem ridiculously overpowered compared to the other Gods of Destruction.

Beerus doesn’t need to continue serving as a benchmark for Goku. If Toriyama needs to give Goku a new benchmark, he should just have Whis fill that role.

You don't necessarily need UI to beat a UI user, jiren beat the crap out of goku for a some portion of episode 130 just because his raw power was so high and then goku got his next nakama boost which put him above jiren, they could easily just make it to where beerus raw power is so high, even UI Goku can't compare.

Also personally idc either way but i think its likely. Toriyama loves his cat too much
I know, but what’s the point of making UI out to be this incredible thing that even Beerus is in awe of, if it’s not supposed to signal that Goku has reached a new milestone in power?

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon May 14, 2018 9:35 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
ToshioWrites wrote:This arguing will all be pointless when Beerus power is retconned in the movie. UI will be stated to be a joke compared to Beerus. I am 99.99% sure of that
I never thought about that possibility, but I sincerely hope that doesn’t happen. UI is supposed to be a state that even the Gods of Destruction haven’t mastered. Suddenly retconning Beerus into being able to mop the floor with UI Goku would be beyond ridiculous, and would be detrimental to this idea that fighting Jiren pushed Goku beyond his limits. Plus, since Jiren is supposed to be stronger than Belmod, making UI Goku weaker than Beerus would only serve to make Beerus seem ridiculously overpowered compared to the other Gods of Destruction.

Beerus doesn’t need to continue serving as a benchmark for Goku. If Toriyama needs to give Goku a new benchmark, he should just have Whis fill that role.
Yeah. Its obvious that beerus is no longer gokus benchmark, gotta thank jiren for that. His new benchmark isnt a person either, his benchmark is still the power of Completed Ultra instinct. Now that he cant use it anymore, his goal should be to train until he is able to achieve it on his own.

And this question is also too early to be answered. The manga is still going and the manga is known to compare important characters in the series (beerus and ssb vegito being on the same level)

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Koitsukai » Mon May 14, 2018 10:01 pm

Beerus's next move shouldn't be getting a retcon, it should be mastering UI or at least getting back to his training.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by HeroR » Tue May 15, 2018 2:15 pm

ToshioWrites wrote:
HeroR wrote:
ToshioWrites wrote:
Beerus has no role in the show outside of being the benchmark, his power will get buffed up accordingly just like it was from BoG movie to Revival F movie.
Beerus can get a new role since almost all of Goku’s rivals started as benchmarks.

And the comparison to the previous movies doesn’t really work here when you had an entire arc building up Jiren and UI, and unlike Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, UI has been presented as the ultimate form that surpasses the gods. That and Jiren himself was just a benchmark that UI Goku crushed.

It’s a fictional story there isn’t any “that doesn’t work here”

Ssg was 60% of Beerus in the first movie and yet the Super Saiyan version of that form was still weaker than him. Super Saiyan was built up as the greatest power in thee universe and then came the androids .

Build up doesn’t mean jack. Toriyama isn’t gonna let that stop him from wanking Beerus more
Even fictional stories have standards.

And the big difference that you’re ignoring is that Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’ were movies. Super was a TV series so of Toriyama didn’t want Goku to be stronger than Beerus, they wouldn’t have made a big deal of Jiren being stronger than a God of Destruction or UI being a state that Beerus hasn’t mastered.

Also, the androids argument is weak since they were new villains, not old hats like Beerus at this point.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Raphael_Z » Tue May 15, 2018 2:34 pm

HeroR wrote:
ToshioWrites wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Beerus can get a new role since almost all of Goku’s rivals started as benchmarks.

And the comparison to the previous movies doesn’t really work here when you had an entire arc building up Jiren and UI, and unlike Super Saiyan God or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, UI has been presented as the ultimate form that surpasses the gods. That and Jiren himself was just a benchmark that UI Goku crushed.

It’s a fictional story there isn’t any “that doesn’t work here”

Ssg was 60% of Beerus in the first movie and yet the Super Saiyan version of that form was still weaker than him. Super Saiyan was built up as the greatest power in thee universe and then came the androids .

Build up doesn’t mean jack. Toriyama isn’t gonna let that stop him from wanking Beerus more
Even fictional stories have standards.

And the big difference that you’re ignoring is that Battle of Gods and Resurrection ‘F’ were movies. Super was a TV series so of Toriyama didn’t want Goku to be stronger than Beerus, they wouldn’t have made a big deal of Jiren being stronger than a God of Destruction or UI being a state that Beerus hasn’t mastered.

Also, the androids argument is weak since they were new villains, not old hats like Beerus at this point.
If Goku can get stronger and reach UI, then so can Beerus. If anything, it would be an interesting character arc for him to stop being so lazy with training. All GoD seem to be kind of lazy and complacent with their current power levels TBH.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by HeroR » Tue May 15, 2018 2:42 pm

Raphael_Z wrote:
If Goku can get stronger and reach UI, then so can Beerus. If anything, it would be an interesting character arc for him to stop being so lazy with training. All GoD seem to be kind of lazy and complacent with their current power levels TBH.
I mean, anyone in Dragon Ball can get 'stronger'. Freeza got much stronger. However, Beerus need to show motivation to get stronger. Like Beerus isn't even the stronger in his universe, that being Whis, yet he felt no motive to improve himself. I also don't see the logic of 'if Goku can do it, so can Beerus', since we don't know jack about Beerus
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by ToshioWrites » Tue May 15, 2018 2:48 pm

>Stories have standards

This is dragonball not some well thought out masterpiece. To say Beerus power can't be retconned is you holding this franchise and toriyama to high standard that its not deserving of.

Even in show they never explicitly stated jiren or goku were > beerus, sure all the vague statements and guides they put out alluded to that but they never explicitly stated that.

The same show that will clearly tell us Golden Freeza = SSB Goku in episode 95 went out of their way to never clearly say Beerus had been surpassed

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by HeroR » Tue May 15, 2018 2:57 pm

ToshioWrites wrote:>Stories have standards

This is dragonball not some well thought out masterpiece. To say Beerus power can't be retconned is you holding this franchise and toriyama to high standard that its not deserving of.

Even in show they never explicitly stated jiren or goku were > beerus, sure all the vague statements and guides they put out alluded to that but they never explicitly stated that.

The same show that will clearly tell us Golden Freeza = SSB Goku in episode 95 went out of their way to never clearly say Beerus had been surpassed
Even Dragon Ball, which isn't a masterpiece have standards. Like Freeza was said to be the strongest in the universe, and that has more or less remained true since the only people that surpassed him are man-made creation and some demon that almost everyone forgot exists. In Super, this is reinforced more in that outside of the Saiyans on Earth, no mortal in U7 surpassed Namek Saga Freeza. In fact, Goku's base form was supposedly still weaker than Namek Freeza until Battle of Gods.

There are no vague statement. Whis stated that Jiren has a power like a God of Destruction and may have surpassed it when he held back the Spirit Bomb. There is nothing vague that Jiren is stronger than a God of Destruction and it's only really the fanbase splitting hairs of 'being stronger than a God of Destruction doesn't mean Jiren is stronger than Beerus'. That and God of Destruction Toppo was said to be 'no different than a God of Destruction' meaning that Toppo in that moment is comparable to a God of Destruction, while the fandom try to say 'comparable to a weak God of Destruction', which means jack shit since even in the manga, all the Gods of Destruction were shown to be within the same range of power.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by DragonBallFanatic » Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:52 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:49 am Ask the creators. Theres nothing in the anime that implies jiren is weaker or stronger. The manga had jiren treat CSSB opponents as shit, something beerus has only been shown doing. So if anything, jirens power is shown to be no different than beerus for now. But I'm sure belmod can do the same to CSSb goku.

This is a question that no one can answer as a fact, so youll just be getting peoples opinion.
Very much so there is. First off he’s weaker than Broly since he’s stated to be the strongest enemy in history, and also has author statements backing him up.
Image
Image
Image
Image
Then it is said by Whis, Vegeta > Broly (indirectly) Image
What Beerus does to Vegeta Image
There’s more proof including Goku literally being scared of Beerus and it shows. Stating that he shouldn’t be messed with either. Image
So we can obviously see the implications of Beerus being superior to Goku and Vegeta, who are both > Jiren.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Jinto » Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:05 am

This comes down to manga continuity or anime continuity ?

In the anime, Beerus was clearly outmatched since fused zamasu and a suppressed Jiren was strong enough to scare Beerus, later Jiren charged an attack that was confirmed by Belmod to have the potency to kill everyone on the bench as a collateral (minus angel).

In the manga, Toyo keeps moving the goal, only Goku is indirectly confirmed to be stronger than Beerus with MUI

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:55 am

Jinto wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:05 am In the manga, Toyo keeps moving the goal, only Goku is indirectly confirmed to be stronger than Beerus with MUI
Goku was never confirmed to be stronger than Beerus in the manga, even with the silver-haired form. Actually, he implies the contrary. Not to mention Beerus is stronger than Vegeta, who is now at least as strong as Goku.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Jinto » Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:10 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:55 am
Jinto wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:05 am In the manga, Toyo keeps moving the goal, only Goku is indirectly confirmed to be stronger than Beerus with MUI
Goku was never confirmed to be stronger than Beerus in the manga, even with the silver-haired form. Actually, he implies the contrary. Not to mention Beerus is stronger than Vegeta, who is now at least as strong as Goku.
The dragon said he made Granolah the strongest below GoD level but 50% Granolah was effortlessly destroyed by MUI, I doubt 100 % would make a big difference, Goku was only defeated thanks to Granolah targeting his vital (confirmed by Goku)
, which indirectly confirm that the dragon consider Goku's power on par if not superior to a GoD.
UE Vegeta is nowhere near MUI.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:03 pm

Jinto wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:10 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:55 am
Jinto wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 4:05 am In the manga, Toyo keeps moving the goal, only Goku is indirectly confirmed to be stronger than Beerus with MUI
Goku was never confirmed to be stronger than Beerus in the manga, even with the silver-haired form. Actually, he implies the contrary. Not to mention Beerus is stronger than Vegeta, who is now at least as strong as Goku.
The dragon said he made Granolah the strongest below GoD level but 50% Granolah was effortlessly destroyed by MUI, I doubt 100 % would make a big difference, Goku was only defeated thanks to Granolah targeting his vital (confirmed by Goku)
, which indirectly confirm that the dragon consider Goku's power on par if not superior to a GoD.
UE Vegeta is nowhere near MUI.
There is no logical correlation between what the dragon said and how Goku vs. Granolah went. It never specified how much below Granolah was in relation to the gods. And Granolah never fought Goku when they both were at 100%, so your conclusion has no basis. At this point we just know that Gas is #1 and Granolah is #2, and both are below Beerus.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Jinto » Mon Jan 03, 2022 12:06 am

Image

Here we see that the gap between SSB Vegeta and the real Granolah is not that big. It is small enough to let SSB Vegeta hurt Granolah later.
SSB Goku was slightly below Granolah's clone in power, unless SSB vegeta is miles above Goku, we can conclude that Granolah's clone is equivalent to the real Granolah.
Yet we know how MUI vs clone Granolah went :
Image

That was air pressure by the way

100% Granolah's power is barely above UE Vegeta and we can't possibly say that UE is equivalent to MUI in power.
So we can easily conclude that Granolah is nowhere near MUI
Goku in power making it a subtle way (through the wish) to say that it is at least equivalent to a GoD.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Jan 03, 2022 9:57 am

Nothing of that matters since Gas was wished to be the strongest after Goku and Vegeta already debuted their full strength, and the only one that can oppose Gas at the moment is Granolah, which means he is currently above Goku and Vegeta. Unless you are arguing that Gas is stronger than Beerus, for no logical reason.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Goku9001 » Mon Jan 03, 2022 1:58 pm

It's pretty much confirmed by Goku that Granola is stronger than the both of them, hence his "I can't believe Granola has been battling the both of us" comment. SSJBE Vegeta's performance against Granola certainly does reinforce the fact that Vegeta is much stronger than Broly (who is much stronger than Jiren) though and Vegeta was no match for Beerus.

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