How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri May 11, 2018 9:39 am

You might think I'm overestimating, but I think Jiren with full power who was able to even fight with Perfected UI Goku for a while, is at least 10x Beerus. Jiren is the strongest mortal out of all 12 universes, including the 4 excluded universes. Whis stated that before knowing that 4 universes were going to be excluded. In the manga, all the Hakaishins fought each other, Belmoud was the only person who didn't need healing because he was pretending to be down. Beerus and Quietela were left standing and Quietela was the one who beat Beerus at arm wrestling.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by PFM18 » Fri May 11, 2018 1:25 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:You might think I'm overestimating, but I think Jiren with full power who was able to even fight with Perfected UI Goku for a while, is at least 10x Beerus. Jiren is the strongest mortal out of all 12 universes, including the 4 excluded universes. Whis stated that before knowing that 4 universes were going to be excluded. In the manga, all the Hakaishins fought each other, Belmoud was the only person who didn't need healing because he was pretending to be down. Beerus and Quietela were left standing and Quietela was the one who beat Beerus at arm wrestling.
Well all of that applies to the manga but not the anime.

Atleast in the anime, there is no way that Jiren is 10x stronger than Beerus. The GoDs strength is a big deal and the fact that Jiren surpassed them was a big deal. The supplementary piece of information that came out essentially said that the 3rd UI Omen was on par with Beerus. Jiren was shown to be only slightly stronger than the 3rd Omen and most definitely not 10x stronger than it. We know this probably doesn't apply to the manga because we aren't even sure if UI Omen is going to appear or not in the manga. That may be true in the manga I am not sure but definitely not in the anime.(the manga is trash anyway)

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by shadowfox87 » Fri May 11, 2018 1:46 pm

PFM18 wrote:Well all of that applies to the manga but not the anime.

Atleast in the anime, there is no way that Jiren is 10x stronger than Beerus. The GoDs strength is a big deal and the fact that Jiren surpassed them was a big deal. The supplementary piece of information that came out essentially said that the 3rd UI Omen was on par with Beerus. Jiren was shown to be only slightly stronger than the 3rd Omen and most definitely not 10x stronger than it. We know this probably doesn't apply to the manga because we aren't even sure if UI Omen is going to appear or not in the manga. That may be true in the manga I am not sure but definitely not in the anime.(the manga is trash anyway)
I really do not want to get into a manga vs anime debate here, but I definitely do not think that the manga is trash. Toyotaro has put a lot of time and effort into each chapter and page. The manga is much more consistent than the anime and there are several instances proof of this. Just one small example is how the manga showed Android 17 vs SSJ3 Goku instead of SSB Goku in the anime. If it comes to power scaling, I will go by the manga. I doubt that we will even see Goku go into UI Omen 3 times in the manga. If you want to go just by the anime, Jiren suppressed was still at least 1.5x (50%) stronger than the 3rd UI Omen. Jiren doesn't even use god ki nor UI yet he surpassed the gods. That itself is impressive. Then Perfected UI Goku is at least more than 10x suppressed Jiren (10x1.5=15). Then if Jiren is 10x stronger than Beerus, that would make Perfected UI Goku 1.5x stronger than Full Power Jiren which is 50% stronger. Looking at a previous percentage gap in DBZ, Goku (150 million) vs Freeza (120 million) was 25%. So I think this is reasonable, but everyone is free to use their own logic.
DBS Manga vs Anime Differences: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42062
Timelines Explanation: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=42105
Log Power Scaling: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40610
Science of Ultra Instinct: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=40707

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by PFM18 » Fri May 11, 2018 2:20 pm

shadowfox87 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Well all of that applies to the manga but not the anime.

Atleast in the anime, there is no way that Jiren is 10x stronger than Beerus. The GoDs strength is a big deal and the fact that Jiren surpassed them was a big deal. The supplementary piece of information that came out essentially said that the 3rd UI Omen was on par with Beerus. Jiren was shown to be only slightly stronger than the 3rd Omen and most definitely not 10x stronger than it. We know this probably doesn't apply to the manga because we aren't even sure if UI Omen is going to appear or not in the manga. That may be true in the manga I am not sure but definitely not in the anime.(the manga is trash anyway)
I really do not want to get into a manga vs anime debate here, but I definitely do not think that the manga is trash. Toyotaro has put a lot of time and effort into each chapter and page. The manga is much more consistent than the anime and there are several instances proof of this. Just one small example is how the manga showed Android 17 vs SSJ3 Goku instead of SSB Goku in the anime. If it comes to power scaling, I will go by the manga. I doubt that we will even see Goku go into UI Omen 3 times in the manga. If you want to go just by the anime, Jiren suppressed was still at least 1.5x (50%) stronger than the 3rd UI Omen. Jiren doesn't even use god ki nor UI yet he surpassed the gods. That itself is impressive. Then Perfected UI Goku is at least more than 10x suppressed Jiren (10x1.5=15). Then if Jiren is 10x stronger than Beerus, that would make Perfected UI Goku 1.5x stronger than Full Power Jiren which is 50% stronger. Looking at a previous percentage gap in DBZ, Goku (150 million) vs Freeza (120 million) was 25%. So I think this is reasonable, but everyone is free to use their own logic.
I really should not have made a comment about the quality of the manga because it is irrelevant here. My bad.

I would definitely agree that UI Goku is 50% stronger than Jiren at Full-power. In fact that is the exact figure I used to code the numbers I use in this stuff. But neither of them are 10x Beerus in my opinion atleast. I see it as something like a 60-70% difference between UI Goku and Beerus and Full-Power Jiren falls somewhere in that gap, because I disagree that Jiren was 50% stronger than the 3rd Omen because they were fighting pretty evenly with Jiren having an edge but not a large one.

On a side note, I do not expect to see UI Omen at all in the manga. I think it will just be actual UI and that is it
Last edited by PFM18 on Fri May 11, 2018 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri May 11, 2018 2:42 pm

PFM18 wrote:
shadowfox87 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Well all of that applies to the manga but not the anime.

Atleast in the anime, there is no way that Jiren is 10x stronger than Beerus. The GoDs strength is a big deal and the fact that Jiren surpassed them was a big deal. The supplementary piece of information that came out essentially said that the 3rd UI Omen was on par with Beerus. Jiren was shown to be only slightly stronger than the 3rd Omen and most definitely not 10x stronger than it. We know this probably doesn't apply to the manga because we aren't even sure if UI Omen is going to appear or not in the manga. That may be true in the manga I am not sure but definitely not in the anime.(the manga is trash anyway)
I really do not want to get into a manga vs anime debate here, but I definitely do not think that the manga is trash. Toyotaro has put a lot of time and effort into each chapter and page. The manga is much more consistent than the anime and there are several instances proof of this. Just one small example is how the manga showed Android 17 vs SSJ3 Goku instead of SSB Goku in the anime. If it comes to power scaling, I will go by the manga. I doubt that we will even see Goku go into UI Omen 3 times in the manga. If you want to go just by the anime, Jiren suppressed was still at least 1.5x (50%) stronger than the 3rd UI Omen. Jiren doesn't even use god ki nor UI yet he surpassed the gods. That itself is impressive. Then Perfected UI Goku is at least more than 10x suppressed Jiren (10x1.5=15). Then if Jiren is 10x stronger than Beerus, that would make Perfected UI Goku 1.5x stronger than Full Power Jiren which is 50% stronger. Looking at a previous percentage gap in DBZ, Goku (150 million) vs Freeza (120 million) was 25%. So I think this is reasonable, but everyone is free to use their own logic.
I really should not have made a comment about the quality of the manga because it is irrelevant here. My bad.

I would definitely agree that UI Goku is 50% stronger than Jiren at Full-power. In fact that is the exact figure I used to code the numbers I use in this stuff. But neither of them are 10x Beerus in my opinion atleast. I see it as something like a 60-70% difference between UI Goku and Beerus and Full-Power Jiren falls somewhere in that gap.

On a side note, I do not expect to see UI Omen at all in the manga. I think it will just be actual UI and that is it
I disagree there. The fact that even after being angered, UI goku couldnt finished of Jiren with physical hits and hat to use his kamehameha says a lot about how close in power
Jiren was to even an enraged UI goku. A 50% difference is more like ssj2 Gohan vs perfect cell, and that fight was one sided as hell in favor of gohan.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri May 11, 2018 2:49 pm

I get a feeling people overestimate beerus power. Especially how fucked up he was along with the other gods at the end of the exhibition match. He is definitely not much more powerful than the other gods, and is comparable enought that the other gods can severly wound him. Clearly tho he is superior to a bunch of them, tho funny enougth, the god with the rumored mortal was the one to suffer no damage (or the least amount of damage).

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri May 11, 2018 5:53 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:the god with the rumored mortal was the one to suffer no damage (or the least amount of damage).
There is a reason for that. He pretended to be down, while the others were beating each other.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri May 11, 2018 8:51 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:the god with the rumored mortal was the one to suffer no damage (or the least amount of damage).
There is a reason for that. He pretended to be down, while the others were beating each other.
So whats your point? I'm pretty sure an 8 year old could tell that.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 12, 2018 7:58 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:the god with the rumored mortal was the one to suffer no damage (or the least amount of damage).
There is a reason for that. He pretended to be down, while the others were beating each other.
So whats your point? I'm pretty sure an 8 year old could tell that.
What? May I ask you the same thing? This isn’t a proper way to respond. You said it was funny that Vermoud had little to no damage, while Beerus was battered. What do you mean? If anything this just shows that Vermoud is more clever than the other gods, not that he is stronger.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Sat May 12, 2018 7:22 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: There is a reason for that. He pretended to be down, while the others were beating each other.
So whats your point? I'm pretty sure an 8 year old could tell that.
What? May I ask you the same thing? This isn’t a proper way to respond. You said it was funny that Vermoud had little to no damage, while Beerus was battered. What do you mean? If anything this just shows that Vermoud is more clever than the other gods, not that he is stronger.
And i ask again, whats your point? We are all aware that he is a clever god. My main argument wasnt about belmod being damaged, it was about all the gods being near each others power enought to severly damage each other. When mentioning belmod being uninjured, i started with “funny enought”, cause it wasnt meant to be taken as a power debate, just somthing that i actually found funny when thinking about it.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat May 12, 2018 11:35 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote: So whats your point? I'm pretty sure an 8 year old could tell that.
What? May I ask you the same thing? This isn’t a proper way to respond. You said it was funny that Vermoud had little to no damage, while Beerus was battered. What do you mean? If anything this just shows that Vermoud is more clever than the other gods, not that he is stronger.
And i ask again, whats your point? We are all aware that he is a clever god. My main argument wasnt about belmod being damaged, it was about all the gods being near each others power enought to severly damage each other. When mentioning belmod being uninjured, i started with “funny enought”, cause it wasnt meant to be taken as a power debate, just somthing that i actually found funny when thinking about it.
My point is exactly clarify what your “funny enough” remark doesn’t. If you think something is “funny enough” to actually be inserted in your post, so it’s expected that at least you will provide a reason to why you think so. Insulting the intelligence of others won’t help you.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Sun May 13, 2018 3:23 pm

Just an observation, but isn't it funny how there's legitimate debate on who is stronger between the first and last major antagonists of a Dragonball series? That could never have happened before (Pilaf vs. Piccolo Jr, Raditz vs. Buu, Baby vs. Omega Shenron).
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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by PFM18 » Sun May 13, 2018 3:30 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Just an observation, but isn't it funny how there's legitimate debate on who is stronger between the first and last major antagonists of a Dragonball series? That could never have happened before (Pilaf vs. Piccolo Jr, Raditz vs. Buu, Baby vs. Omega Shenron).
Yeah it is a very interesting twist. Part of it is that against Beerus it was the only time where Goku and company actually lost. I think it speaks to how creative DBS has been with its stories

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Sun May 13, 2018 3:46 pm

Polyphase Avatron wrote:Just an observation, but isn't it funny how there's legitimate debate on who is stronger between the first and last major antagonists of a Dragonball series? That could never have happened before (Pilaf vs. Piccolo Jr, Raditz vs. Buu, Baby vs. Omega Shenron).
Its actually quite creative indeed. That just shows you how much of a power house beerus was in the first 4 out of 5 arcs. Tho it did seem to annoy some people (not me) that beerus was kept in a pediatal before the tournament of power began. Not just beerus, but the pedestal for God of destruction in general, with beerus being one of the strongest hakaishins.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by WittyUsername » Sun May 13, 2018 7:03 pm

I was kind of under the impression that Jiren is supposed to be viewed as being on par with, if not stronger than Beerus. While all we really know about his strength in relation to the Gods of Destruction is that he’s stronger than Belmod, he’s explicitly been depicted as someone who forced Goku to go beyond his limits by obtaining a technique/form that even Beerus hasn’t been able to master. Plus, didn’t supplementary material explicitly state that Goku with the completed Ultra Instinct is more powerful than a GoD?

Of course, I’m also aware that there is no real way to gauge how strong Beerus and Belmod are in relation to each other. The manga has implied that Beerus is one of the tougher Gods of Destruction, but it also didn’t really give an answer on whether or not he could mop the floor with Belmod.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Mon May 14, 2018 5:12 am

WittyUsername wrote:I was kind of under the impression that Jiren is supposed to be viewed as being on par with, if not stronger than Beerus. While all we really know about his strength in relation to the Gods of Destruction is that he’s stronger than Belmod, he’s explicitly been depicted as someone who forced Goku to go beyond his limits by obtaining a technique/form that even Beerus hasn’t been able to master. Plus, didn’t supplementary material explicitly state that Goku with the completed Ultra Instinct is more powerful than a GoD?

Of course, I’m also aware that there is no real way to gauge how strong Beerus and Belmod are in relation to each other. The manga has implied that Beerus is one of the tougher Gods of Destruction, but it also didn’t really give an answer on whether or not he could mop the floor with Belmod.
Maybe the manga will state where jiren actually standa once he decides to go serious.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by HeroR » Mon May 14, 2018 6:52 pm

There is far more evidence of Jiren > Beerus than Jiren < Beerus. Most of the Jiren < Beerus amounts to fans assuming how much power Beerus is hiding and people overwanking his performance in the Super manga.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by ToshioWrites » Mon May 14, 2018 7:29 pm

This arguing will all be pointless when Beerus power is retconned in the movie. UI will be stated to be a joke compared to Beerus. I am 99.99% sure of that

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by HeroR » Mon May 14, 2018 7:35 pm

ToshioWrites wrote:This arguing will all be pointless when Beerus power is retconned in the movie. UI will be stated to be a joke compared to Beerus. I am 99.99% sure of that
I highly doubt that to the point that I’m almost willing to bet money on it.
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Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: How strong is Jiren compared to Beerus?

Post by ToshioWrites » Mon May 14, 2018 7:39 pm

HeroR wrote:
ToshioWrites wrote:This arguing will all be pointless when Beerus power is retconned in the movie. UI will be stated to be a joke compared to Beerus. I am 99.99% sure of that
I highly doubt that to the point that I’m almost willing to bet money on it.
Beerus has no role in the show outside of being the benchmark, his power will get buffed up accordingly just like it was from BoG movie to Revival F movie.

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