Does my boy Gohan have to beat Toppo in order to be "redeemed" and live up to the hype of this arc?

[precita]

If Gohan is screwed at the end of the TOP then Gohan will never get anything good again

[Swarna]

His return has just been badly written. The way they got him into shape again was abrupt and unconvincing and his "leadership" role was random with no actual reasoning given by Goku. Seriously, he was shown to lose to Krillin/Piccolo in a battle of wits but then they turn around and say he'd be a good strategist or something. lol And then the role amounted to nothing, anyways. What was even the point of that? All of his screen time consists of being a subservient starfish being bossed around by other characters while displaying no agency of his own. He hasn't been built up on screen to be fighting or training for any specific reason. Not even a half-assed "fighting for his family" explanation. His return is the reason I even started watching Super but it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth that my favourite character has become one of the more poorly written aspects of a (to be fair) poorly written show in general. I'd much rather he'd have stayed irrelevant and I needn't have wasted my time with this one-note boring Goku/Vegeta repeat and rehash. They've effectively moved Gohan's signature rage boosts to Trunks/Vegeta and his signature base form gimmick to Goku so just throw him in the trash. This show is aimed at children, but there are plenty of children's cartoons constructed better.

All of you Gohan fans should stop asking for passive, boring screen time and strength feats and start asking for better character development. Don't settle for less. Probably too late for that, though.

[Miracles]

Gohan doing something that big again would be too forced and unbelievable. He just got back in combat and him beating the next god of destruction of Universe 11 would cause disbelief.
Gohan would be better if he sacrificed himself again for the better fighters or for an elimination. Just like he threw himself at the robot in episode 120 for the sake of Vegeta and Goku's stamina.
Gohan would show a true mark of a good leader by sacrificing himself instead of bullying the audience into believing the kid is gonna bust a SSJ2 vs Cell scene again.

[Lionel]

How much can you expect from an anime that superficially executes character moments and story development? Dragon Ball Z went to great lengths in trying to render Vegeta as some experienced mastermind of a fighter when in reality the contents of his character showed a man who had a wiry layabout subordinate of Freeza as a rival for the longest time. It took an unprecedented fight on Earth to finally propel him ahead of his original rival. Sure, he's come up with a few clever ploys here and there but it's nothing that Yamcha wasn't doing back in the Pilaf arc. What's more, Vegeta is far from being a stranger to undeserved and exorbitant power increases (late Namek arc especially). Gohan could have stood to receive more time laying the foundation to his intentions and providing some validation to his position as leader, that should go without saying. But you could say the same about so many concepts and characters in this arc. If you want to blame anyone then blame the storyboard writers at Toei.

Will Gohan beat Toppo? Who can say. I personally don't want Goku apportioning another victory and if Vegeta proves instrumental in taking Jiren down then that's impressive enough for him. Freeza seems to be preoccupied with Dyspo and #17 feels more like a placeholder since his acclaimed role against Anilaza. Something truly substantive to cement Gohan's importance against the pre-established titans of this competition would be nice but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Asura]

He just got back in combat and him beating the next god of destruction of Universe 11 would cause disbelief.

But how much does it really mean that Toppo is the GoD of U11? Belmod isn't even stronger than Jiren, and Goku whooped the floor with Toppo at the exhibition matches. Toppo certainly isn't anywhere near Beerus level of GoDs if Goku could beat him up that badly.

[Miracles]

He just got back in combat and him beating the next god of destruction of Universe 11 would cause disbelief.

But how much does it really mean that Toppo is the GoD of U11? Belmod isn't even stronger than Jiren, and Goku whooped the floor with Toppo at the exhibition matches. Toppo certainly isn't anywhere near Beerus level of GoDs if Goku could beat him up that badly.

Goku didn't beat up Toppo. Goku said he didn't know if he could beat Toppo and Gohan just confirmed this episode that his dad "struggled" against Toppo.
Toppo, who was also holding back in the exhibition matches against Goku was uneffected by Goku's point blank signature. Toppo just laughed off a full Kamehameha again from Gohan.
Toppo has proven his status as the next god with subtlety.

[Asura]

He just got back in combat and him beating the next god of destruction of Universe 11 would cause disbelief.

But how much does it really mean that Toppo is the GoD of U11? Belmod isn't even stronger than Jiren, and Goku whooped the floor with Toppo at the exhibition matches. Toppo certainly isn't anywhere near Beerus level of GoDs if Goku could beat him up that badly.

Goku didn't beat up Toppo. Goku said he didn't know if he could beat Toppo and Gohan just confirmed this episode that his dad "struggled" against Toppo.
Toppo, who was also holding back in the exhibition matches against Goku was uneffected by Goku's point blank signature. Toppo just laughed off a full Kamehameha again from Gohan.
Toppo has proven his status as the next god with subtlety.

Toppo definitely wasn't unaffected. He was all bruised up and his uniform was torn. Goku saying he doesn't know if he could beat Toppo doesn't really make any sense given how the exhibition match went.

[Miracles]

But how much does it really mean that Toppo is the GoD of U11? Belmod isn't even stronger than Jiren, and Goku whooped the floor with Toppo at the exhibition matches. Toppo certainly isn't anywhere near Beerus level of GoDs if Goku could beat him up that badly.

Goku didn't beat up Toppo. Goku said he didn't know if he could beat Toppo and Gohan just confirmed this episode that his dad "struggled" against Toppo.
Toppo, who was also holding back in the exhibition matches against Goku was uneffected by Goku's point blank signature. Toppo just laughed off a full Kamehameha again from Gohan.
Toppo has proven his status as the next god with subtlety.

Toppo definitely wasn't unaffected. He was all bruised up and his uniform was torn. Goku saying he doesn't know if he could beat Toppo doesn't really make any sense given how the exhibition match went.

It went with Toppo not even concerned about Goku's Kamehameha but his costume. Now Gohan confirms he struggled against Toppo.

[BWri]

Well it's just that his role in Super was SO BAD that now this looks really good in comparison, but taken on its own its still not a great performance/role in the TOP.

If Gohan was in the Universe 6 tournament I don't think people would have had such high expectations for him now. But since all Gohan had was being humiliated by Freeza and his soldiers in Return of F, missing and not even watching the U6 tournament, then not featured for the Zamasu/Black arc....it's why this hype with the training eps and TOP feel like a big deal.

Seriously! Was it too much to ask to have a really good fighting arc with a competent Gohan, Piccolo, and Buu in U6? I for the life of me will never understand why AT loves to waste such good characters. To me that arc feels meh because of it (and because of U6's limited development.)

[Totamo]

Well it's just that his role in Super was SO BAD that now this looks really good in comparison, but taken on its own its still not a great performance/role in the TOP.

If Gohan was in the Universe 6 tournament I don't think people would have had such high expectations for him now. But since all Gohan had was being humiliated by Freeza and his soldiers in Return of F, missing and not even watching the U6 tournament, then not featured for the Zamasu/Black arc....it's why this hype with the training eps and TOP feel like a big deal.

Seriously! Was it too much to ask to have a really good fighting arc with a competent Gohan, Piccolo, and Buu in U6? I for the life of me will never understand why AT loves to waste such good characters. To me that arc feels meh because of it (and because of U6's limited development.)

Because they aren't needed. Why is this even a question? Goku and Vegeta don't really need any of the 7 fighters.

The universe survival arc could have just been 2 man teams and honestly, it just should have done that.

[Ki Breaker]

He doesn't have to, he isn't going to either..
At least I think that's the case..
But it's the anime so who can really say, exclusive powerups are a thing..

[BWri]

Well it's just that his role in Super was SO BAD that now this looks really good in comparison, but taken on its own its still not a great performance/role in the TOP.

If Gohan was in the Universe 6 tournament I don't think people would have had such high expectations for him now. But since all Gohan had was being humiliated by Freeza and his soldiers in Return of F, missing and not even watching the U6 tournament, then not featured for the Zamasu/Black arc....it's why this hype with the training eps and TOP feel like a big deal.

Seriously! Was it too much to ask to have a really good fighting arc with a competent Gohan, Piccolo, and Buu in U6? I for the life of me will never understand why AT loves to waste such good characters. To me that arc feels meh because of it (and because of U6's limited development.)

Because they aren't needed. Why is this even a question? Goku and Vegeta don't really need any of the 7 fighters.

The universe survival arc could have just been 2 man teams and honestly, it just should have done that.

And from a viewer standpoint, that's boring. That's why the U6 arc was meh at best. Only three of the fighters were competitive, and they didn't let Piccolo or Gohan or Buu fight the likes of Frost, Botamo, Cabba, or Magetta. I would have preferred that to watching Vegeta steamroll the competition and pretending to struggle while using lesser forms. And keeping Piccolo so weak was pointless, since he later got a nonsensical power boost off screen anyway. Can he make big gains through training or can't he? If he can, why is it only when he's relevant to the plot? Why would Gohan decide to go to a conference instead of fighting for his planet? Why even have an exam for a fighting tournament? Just pointless reasons not to use characters.

My point is that AT is putting a lot of effort into making characters pathetic, stretching the bounds of in-universe believability to make Goku and Vegeta the only relevant characters, until he needs the others in the plot. Case in point, and this one is likely Toei's fault, but before the U6 tournament, Piccolo actually declines training with Goku and Vegeta because they're Saiyans and much stronger than him, despite the fact that he trained with a Super Saiyan before who was more than 100x stronger than him. That training boosted Piccolo to Super Saiyan tier. Why would he not consider doing something like that again? It's character assassination plain and simple and I just don't get way AT or Toei does it, especially when they choose to power them up arbitrarily anyway.

[Asura]

Goku didn't beat up Toppo. Goku said he didn't know if he could beat Toppo and Gohan just confirmed this episode that his dad "struggled" against Toppo.
Toppo, who was also holding back in the exhibition matches against Goku was uneffected by Goku's point blank signature. Toppo just laughed off a full Kamehameha again from Gohan.
Toppo has proven his status as the next god with subtlety.

Toppo definitely wasn't unaffected. He was all bruised up and his uniform was torn. Goku saying he doesn't know if he could beat Toppo doesn't really make any sense given how the exhibition match went.

It went with Toppo not even concerned about Goku's Kamehameha but his costume. Now Gohan confirms he struggled against Toppo.

Well, I still don't think Toppo was even close to Goku's level in that fight, but if Gohan says so then I guess it must be true. I can definitely understand the argument that Gohan shouldn't be able to beat someone who is close to GoD level, but if not Toppo then give him Dyspo. As long as he puts up a good fight and eliminates or massively damages his opponent then I think he'll have lived up to the hype of this arc.

I'd personally like to see a mutual KO like with Lavenda.

[Totamo]

Seriously! Was it too much to ask to have a really good fighting arc with a competent Gohan, Piccolo, and Buu in U6? I for the life of me will never understand why AT loves to waste such good characters. To me that arc feels meh because of it (and because of U6's limited development.)

Because they aren't needed. Why is this even a question? Goku and Vegeta don't really need any of the 7 fighters.

The universe survival arc could have just been 2 man teams and honestly, it just should have done that.

And from a viewer standpoint, that's boring. That's why the U6 arc was meh at best. Only three of the fighters were competitive, and they didn't let Piccolo or Gohan or Buu fight the likes of Frost, Botamo, Cabba, or Magetta. I would have preferred that to watching Vegeta steamroll the competition and pretending to struggle while using lesser forms. And keeping Piccolo so weak was pointless, since he later got a nonsensical power boost off screen anyway. Can he make big gains through training or can't he? If he can, why is it only when he's relevant to the plot? Why would Gohan decide to go to a conference instead of fighting for his planet? Why even have an exam for a fighting tournament? Just pointless reasons not to use characters.

My point is that AT is putting a lot of effort into making characters pathetic, stretching the bounds of in-universe believability to make Goku and Vegeta the only relevant characters, until he needs the others in the plot. Case in point, and this one is likely Toei's fault, but before the U6 tournament, Piccolo actually declines training with Goku and Vegeta because they're Saiyans and much stronger than him, despite the fact that he trained with a Super Saiyan before who was more than 100x stronger than him. That training boosted Piccolo to Super Saiyan tier. Why would he not consider doing something like that again? It's character assassination plain and simple and I just don't get way AT or Toei does it, especially when they choose to power them up arbitrarily anyway.

1. Thats an opinion you are having. If its boring to watch, then stop because it isn't going to change like at all.

2. It makes sense. Gohan doesn't like to fight unless he has to and with Goku and Vegeta here, he doesn't have to. Can you name one time, Gohan trained on his own because he wanted to. Piccolo doesn't have the potential to keep up with them and Buu likes to sleep and eat and in the manga, he just fails because he is dumb. If toriyama uses characters just because fans want that, that won't produce a natural story. Case in point, Roshi. The old man certainly has fans and people do like his fights but not many would tell you it feels right that he is here. Honestly, with the addition of god ki, seeing Gohan fight by his dad side kinda rubs me the wrong way for that exact reason

3. No, Piccolo never trained with a super saiyan. In fact, it was his fusion with kami that put him on par with 17 who was as strong as a grade 1 super saiyan.

4. No its pretty believable that Goku and Vegeta are the only two useful fighters, they are the only two that take initiatives, have the power and drive to grow farther as well as being the only two that don't need a reason to fight.

5. No, he is not making characters pathetic, he just isn't using them because they simply aren't needed.

[HeroR]

1. Thats an opinion you are having. If its boring to watch, then stop because it isn't going to change like at all.

2. It makes sense. Gohan doesn't like to fight unless he has to and with Goku and Vegeta here, he doesn't have to. Can you name one time, Gohan trained on his own because he wanted to. Piccolo doesn't have the potential to keep up with them and Buu likes to sleep and eat and in the manga, he just fails because he is dumb. If toriyama uses characters just because fans want that, that won't produce a natural story. Case in point, Roshi. The old man certainly has fans and people do like his fights but not many would tell you it feels right that he is here. Honestly, with the addition of god ki, seeing Gohan fight by his dad side kinda rubs me the wrong way for that exact reason

3. No, Piccolo never trained with a super saiyan. In fact, it was his fusion with kami that put him on par with 17 who was as strong as a grade 1 super saiyan.

4. No its pretty believable that Goku and Vegeta are the only two useful fighters, they are the only two that take initiatives, have the power and drive to grow farther as well as being the only two that don't need a reason to fight.

5. No, he is not making characters pathetic, he just isn't using them because they simply aren't needed.

Piccolo did trained with a Super Saiyan since we see in the manga Piccolo training with Super Saiyan Goku before the androids. The anime just didn't have that scene.

As for Roshi, he does fit naturally into the story because he isn't taking on any of the powerhouses. He taking out the gimmick fighters who can give trouble to the powerhouses since they're too straightforward.

But I do agree that no media should used a character because of fan demand, otherwise you end up with a bloated cast that slows the story, which is kinda what happened in One Piece in later arcs. To be sure, this isn't caused by fan demand, but more that Oda has a ton a characters that he tries to give focus to and it's just too much.

[Totamo]

1. Thats an opinion you are having. If its boring to watch, then stop because it isn't going to change like at all.

2. It makes sense. Gohan doesn't like to fight unless he has to and with Goku and Vegeta here, he doesn't have to. Can you name one time, Gohan trained on his own because he wanted to. Piccolo doesn't have the potential to keep up with them and Buu likes to sleep and eat and in the manga, he just fails because he is dumb. If toriyama uses characters just because fans want that, that won't produce a natural story. Case in point, Roshi. The old man certainly has fans and people do like his fights but not many would tell you it feels right that he is here. Honestly, with the addition of god ki, seeing Gohan fight by his dad side kinda rubs me the wrong way for that exact reason

3. No, Piccolo never trained with a super saiyan. In fact, it was his fusion with kami that put him on par with 17 who was as strong as a grade 1 super saiyan.

4. No its pretty believable that Goku and Vegeta are the only two useful fighters, they are the only two that take initiatives, have the power and drive to grow farther as well as being the only two that don't need a reason to fight.

5. No, he is not making characters pathetic, he just isn't using them because they simply aren't needed.

Piccolo did trained with a Super Saiyan since we see in the manga Piccolo training with Super Saiyan Goku before the androids. The anime just didn't have that scene.

As for Roshi, he does fit naturally into the story because he isn't taking on any of the powerhouses. He taking out the gimmick fighters who can give trouble to the powerhouses since they're too straightforward.

But I do agree that no media should used a character because of fan demand, otherwise you end up with a bloated cast that slows the story, which is kinda what happened in One Piece in later arcs. To be sure, this isn't caused by fan demand, but more that Oda has a ton a characters that he tries to give focus to and it's just too much.

my mistake.

[Ilikepictures-meh]

But how much does it really mean that Toppo is the GoD of U11? Belmod isn't even stronger than Jiren, and Goku whooped the floor with Toppo at the exhibition matches. Toppo certainly isn't anywhere near Beerus level of GoDs if Goku could beat him up that badly.

Goku didn't beat up Toppo. Goku said he didn't know if he could beat Toppo and Gohan just confirmed this episode that his dad "struggled" against Toppo.
Toppo, who was also holding back in the exhibition matches against Goku was uneffected by Goku's point blank signature. Toppo just laughed off a full Kamehameha again from Gohan.
Toppo has proven his status as the next god with subtlety.

Toppo definitely wasn't unaffected. He was all bruised up and his uniform was torn. Goku saying he doesn't know if he could beat Toppo doesn't really make any sense given how the exhibition match went.

Toppo was barely affected by Ssjb Goku kamehameha and was clearly more concerned and angry with the fact that Goku ruined his outfit. Even complaining about Goku messing up his outfit and claiming he's going to get serious because of it. Idk how you can miss the obvious here.

[BWri]

Because they aren't needed. Why is this even a question? Goku and Vegeta don't really need any of the 7 fighters.

The universe survival arc could have just been 2 man teams and honestly, it just should have done that.

And from a viewer standpoint, that's boring. That's why the U6 arc was meh at best. Only three of the fighters were competitive, and they didn't let Piccolo or Gohan or Buu fight the likes of Frost, Botamo, Cabba, or Magetta. I would have preferred that to watching Vegeta steamroll the competition and pretending to struggle while using lesser forms. And keeping Piccolo so weak was pointless, since he later got a nonsensical power boost off screen anyway. Can he make big gains through training or can't he? If he can, why is it only when he's relevant to the plot? Why would Gohan decide to go to a conference instead of fighting for his planet? Why even have an exam for a fighting tournament? Just pointless reasons not to use characters.

My point is that AT is putting a lot of effort into making characters pathetic, stretching the bounds of in-universe believability to make Goku and Vegeta the only relevant characters, until he needs the others in the plot. Case in point, and this one is likely Toei's fault, but before the U6 tournament, Piccolo actually declines training with Goku and Vegeta because they're Saiyans and much stronger than him, despite the fact that he trained with a Super Saiyan before who was more than 100x stronger than him. That training boosted Piccolo to Super Saiyan tier. Why would he not consider doing something like that again? It's character assassination plain and simple and I just don't get way AT or Toei does it, especially when they choose to power them up arbitrarily anyway.

1. Thats an opinion you are having. If its boring to watch, then stop because it isn't going to change like at all.

2. It makes sense. Gohan doesn't like to fight unless he has to and with Goku and Vegeta here, he doesn't have to. Can you name one time, Gohan trained on his own because he wanted to. Piccolo doesn't have the potential to keep up with them and Buu likes to sleep and eat and in the manga, he just fails because he is dumb. If toriyama uses characters just because fans want that, that won't produce a natural story. Case in point, Roshi. The old man certainly has fans and people do like his fights but not many would tell you it feels right that he is here. Honestly, with the addition of god ki, seeing Gohan fight by his dad side kinda rubs me the wrong way for that exact reason

3. No, Piccolo never trained with a super saiyan. In fact, it was his fusion with kami that put him on par with 17 who was as strong as a grade 1 super saiyan.

4. No its pretty believable that Goku and Vegeta are the only two useful fighters, they are the only two that take initiatives, have the power and drive to grow farther as well as being the only two that don't need a reason to fight.

5. No, he is not making characters pathetic, he just isn't using them because they simply aren't needed.

1. It's an opinion a lot of people share. I would stop, like I did with the 6 or so eps of RoF, and Pontefeu. I nearly did after the U6 tournament until they finally introduced another interesting protagonist in Trunks. Then, what do you know, they decide to use the whole cast in an arc so I'm watching every episode. Once it's back to only Goku and Vegeta, there's a good chance I'll stop watching unless the villain is good like Zamasu/Goku Black were. Goku and Vegeta aren't as interesting as they were in Z IMO. Feels like they don't have a lot to do and repeat old character arcs constantly.

2. Gohan was already training after RoF. It's shown in the anime and said in the manga, plus RoSaT. Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan could've went in for those 3 years together or Gohan could've went in for like a year or a few months. No matter what you say, it won't make sense that Gohan didn't take a sick day from work to help protect his universe.

3. Piccolo trained with Goku for three years. I believe its shown that he trained against SSJ Goku in the manga, but even if it wasn't shown, it's heavily implied. Even before fusing with Kami, Piccolo was in the Super Saiyan realm of power. I'm sure he could only get that strong at the time by training with a Super Saiyan.

4. What I'm saying is that AT purposely goes out of his way to make characters useless so that Goku and Vegeta are the only relevant fighters. Gohan goes to conferences instead of protecting his planet, Buu falls asleep whenever Toriyama conveniently doesn't want to use him, Piccolo always trains but only gets big power boosts when its convenient for AT. Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be the only useful characters if the cast wasn't written to be such laid-back simpletons. But I'm at least glad that other characters got to do things in the ToP.

5. He is making them pathetic. They may not be needed for the plot, but that doesn't mean their development has to be abruptly dropped. If Piccolo always trains, how come he doesn't appear to get any stronger? If Tien always trains, how come he hasn't come up with new techniques and strategies? How come he appears to have gotten weaker? How come everyone but Goku and Vegeta seems to be getting weaker pre-ToP? Remember when the Z-fighters struggled with 1000 pathetic Frieza soldiers. That made them look weak. How come Gohan and Piccolo didn't just blitz them in a few seconds. I bet if Goku and Vegeta fought those same fighters, they'd have defeated all the Frieza fodder in 5 seconds. It's obvious that the other characters are usually held back to make Goku and Vegeta shine more and what I'm saying is that it's not necessary as we can see with the ToP. Just make more characters awesome! It makes for a better show that more people can enjoy. After all, why write and create a cool cast of characters that you aren't going to use? And if you aren't going to use them, why keep them around in the first place. It's like a tease to those who like those characters.

edit: I agree with part of the point you made for #2. I also don't like unnatural power boosts and how easy it is for people like Gohan and Android 17 to get to a god tier realm of power. It's why I despise just about every off-screen power boost in Super and that's part of my overall point. None of it feels natural, but neither does keeping characters like Piccolo, Gohan, and Tien so weak and useless for 80% of the show. If there is no known limit to Namekian or human power, why won't the other characters push themselves unless it's relevant to the plot? That just doesn't feel organic. When your planet is inundated with threats, you'd do all you can make sure you could deal with them.

[Issei189]

But how much does it really mean that Toppo is the GoD of U11? Belmod isn't even stronger than Jiren, and Goku whooped the floor with Toppo at the exhibition matches. Toppo certainly isn't anywhere near Beerus level of GoDs if Goku could beat him up that badly.

Goku didn't beat up Toppo. Goku said he didn't know if he could beat Toppo and Gohan just confirmed this episode that his dad "struggled" against Toppo.
Toppo, who was also holding back in the exhibition matches against Goku was uneffected by Goku's point blank signature. Toppo just laughed off a full Kamehameha again from Gohan.
Toppo has proven his status as the next god with subtlety.

Toppo definitely wasn't unaffected. He was all bruised up and his uniform was torn. Goku saying he doesn't know if he could beat Toppo doesn't really make any sense given how the exhibition match went.

Goku questioned himself because he didn't know how strong a fully powered Toppo was. During the end of their match in the Zen exhibition, Toppo started to power up and Goku in response turned on KK. We didn't get to see the extent of it

[New_Guy]

I'll just say IF Toppo does indeed lose to Gohan, I'm sure it'll be because the story writers felt as though Toppo ran his course. By that I mean we've seen him in more than one small skirmish throughout the tournament, has even tangled with Goku and Vegeta a bit, and now he ends up fighting Gohan and U7 (possibly) gets the win. Regardless of power level scaling. Kinda like how Ribrianne was bouncing all throughout the arena tangling with 17, Vegeta (Ss, Base), Goku (Base, Ssb) then ends up fighting 18 and losing. Make sense sort of? Ehh I may be reaching but with the way the story progresses these days I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that way. Gohan I'm rooting for you anyway.