Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

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Miracles
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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby Miracles » Mon Jan 15, 2018 7:53 pm

Artorias wrote:This is the first episode with mediocre animation that I actually enjoyed in a long time. Usually poor animation is enough to make me check out, but not this time. Just goes to show how strong everything else was.

Yep. DBZ had a lot of of poorly animated episodes.
However, the way the fights were written combined with good music, would turn out for an decent episode.
This Super episode kind of reminded me of that.
"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."~Psalm 14:1

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby Saturnine » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:24 am

The animation has been at least decent for very long in Super now, as has the art. The crappiest episodes of Z struggled more with the art than the animation IMO, though there were been some very stiffly animated episodes in Z too (or just ones with questionable animation direction), such as most of Vegeta vs Semi P. Cell.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby ernesth100 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:37 am

Okay anyone notice that everytime Goku and Vegeta get better Jiren notes it? Then he powers up again with the calmest demeanor. I can't be the only one thinking Jiren is hiding a power that even a fused Goku & Vegeta(if they do go that route, which with 7 minutes left in the whole tournament they probably wont) won't be able to overcome. I feel like at the end Jiren's just gonna reveal how pointless their effort has been this whole time and be revealed to be possibly Angel level in strength especially if he's stronger than Toppo who's basically a God of Destruction.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby Artorias » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:25 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Artorias wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Okay, so Goku can be destroyed in a battle and recover in seconds (getting stronger), can also RECOVER energy while SPELLING energy in a battle, can get a new power that even the gods have a hard time mastering with an exploding super Genki Dama in his face, but if Vegeta gets any of those things, is that a motive to complain?

I've never said that the explanation for Vegeta's new transformation is perfect or anything of the sort. In fact, she had less screen time than expected and could be far better explored on this EP.
But basically, it was the SAME explanation for when Goku got the UI (simply '' break the wall '' or push his limits), and the worst is that in Goku's case he had a Genki Dama (made to defeat Jiren) by swallowing him completely in a blast, and he survived.
What's the point of criticizing Vegeta's motivation for a new form that is apparently even weaker than the UI?

Certainly the DBS anime has some problem explaining transformations, but here everyone is treating like an SSJ Rage 2.0, and the new form of vegetation is much more plausible than the UP of Trunks.
And well, and this argument of '' he's just a fictional character '' only serves when we talk about vegeta. When we talk about Goku, we ignore all this bullshit (incidentally, we all know that they are not real characters)


I was merely commenting on your use of the word "fair", which I've seen a lot lately. And I just don't think that's relevant. The question should be "Does this make sense?" or "Is this well written?", not "Is this fair?"

And second, the difference between UI and this form is that UI was established ARCS ago as an ultimate pinnacle of forms. This Vegeta form has come out of nowhere and has had zero build up, on top of the lack of explanation. And even THEN, it STILL makes less sense than UI, because at least with UI it's established that you need to get the shit kicked out of you and be on the verge of death, at which point your body takes over and goes into a state of being, whereas in this case, Vegeta literally just screams really loudly and somehow powers up. Why? Idk, and neither do the writers.

I would also argue that this is worse than SSJ Rage, because AT LEAST Rage came after an extremely emotional moment that caused Trunks to confront feelings he never had before, and it also allowed him to fend off Black while the others escaped and formed a plan. This new Vegeta form is likely (not guaranteed but likely) to amount to jack shit in the narrative. He's going to fight Jiren for a bit, lose, and that'll be that. It comes off as shameless, vapid pandering.


UI was established before, but it was somewhat vague (and not as the '' pinnacle of forms '' as you say.) And it had nothing to indicate that it was a kind of transformation (as shown in ToP), but a technique not only the Saiyans could dominate.

And the link between UI and Whis teachings to Goku and Vegeta in RoF only happened on EP 116, several episodes after the first appearance of UI (before, even if it was something expected, it had not been confirmed that it was the same technique ). It was not explained all in one episode, I do not know why complain that Vegeta's form has not yet been properly explained, after all it appeared at the end of the episode. Neither SSJ2 nor SSJ3 had explanations, we just knew they were forms above SJS. SSJ Rosé also was not explained in the anime, we had all this hatred?

In the EP 110 what we know was that Goku unlocked this technique (which even the GoDs have a hard time mastering) after breaking the wall, which was exactly the same explanation for how Vegeta got his transformation.
Goku unlocked after a Super Genki Dama exploded in his face while Vegeta got it because of the determination to keep his promise and overcome the limits in his own way.

Obviously, UI received much more attention and highlight, after all it was one of the highlights of this saga. While the new form of Vegeta was actually introduced in a hurried way
But she only appeared for a few minutes, we know almost nothing of it to draw so many conclusions hasty.
The point is that for now, at least we know the motivation for Vegeta to achieve that form and how he unlocked it. It may seem forced, but the point is that Vegeta has always trained enough to get to that level, and TOEI is also '' fixing '' the absurd difference created between Goku and vegeta with Kaioken (and which I can not believe is in the script of Toriyama)

Elvis143BRA wrote:Good episode, but do the writers know that sacrificing speed for power (Vegeta's """"""new"""""" form) is useless?


he new form of Vegeta has no connection with the Super Vegeta of the saga Cell.
She seemed more muscular, but this is only a consequence of the new transformation (Piccolo says she is different from Blue and Daishinkan's explanation is the same as for UI Goku)


Whether or not UI was clear from the start seems irrelevant, because Toei has found a way to seamlessly give us a payoff to an idea planted years ago, whether or not it was originally intended to be this way.

Second, The reason SSJ2 didn't have an uproar is because it was established very early on in that arc that an "ascended" form was entirely possible, and it's what all of the Sayians were striving for throughout the entirety of that arc. So when Gohan achieved SSJ2, we didn't need some long winded explanation, or even a name, because we all knew what it was the moment it happened. SSJ3 is kinda bogus, but even then, again, it has the excuse of being a form that was achieved through intense training in the afterlife. I find that much easier to buy than this new Vegeta form popping up out of nowhere. And Rose was VERY CLEARLY supposed to just be SSB but for a god, hence the color difference. Black dances around it and doesn't do the best job of explaining this, but he still all but confirms it in his following monologue.

Third, you say "Goku unlocked after a Super Genki Dama exploded in his face while Vegeta got it because of the determination to keep his promise and overcome the limits in his own way." But that's a fundamental difference that is important. UI is established right away in that moment as a state of being that requires immense physical stress and an event to spark the transformation. This Vegeta form is...well...just nothing. He just screams real loud and tries real hard and thinks real hard, and boom, new form unlocked? Really? That seems extremely lame and contrived. And again it comes out of nowhere with no prior establishment, which is my fundamental point to all of this that I will continue to repeat.

I also don't see how the power gap between Goku and Vegeta NEEDS "fixing". Again, when did it just become a law of the land that Vegeta always needs to be equal to or right behind Goku? Why is that necessary for the story? I just don't buy that we always need Vegeta nipping at the heels of Goku for the plot to move along.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby Lord Beerus » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:48 pm

Artorias wrote:I also don't see how the power gap between Goku and Vegeta NEEDS "fixing". Again, when did it just become a law of the land that Vegeta always needs to be equal to or right behind Goku? Why is that necessary for the story? I just don't buy that we always need Vegeta nipping at the heels of Goku for the plot to move along.

To be fair, I do like the idea that Goku and Vegeta are on level pegging and constantly look for way to one-up each other. But at the same time, it's not mandatory.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:18 am

Artorias wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Artorias wrote:
I was merely commenting on your use of the word "fair", which I've seen a lot lately. And I just don't think that's relevant. The question should be "Does this make sense?" or "Is this well written?", not "Is this fair?"

And second, the difference between UI and this form is that UI was established ARCS ago as an ultimate pinnacle of forms. This Vegeta form has come out of nowhere and has had zero build up, on top of the lack of explanation. And even THEN, it STILL makes less sense than UI, because at least with UI it's established that you need to get the shit kicked out of you and be on the verge of death, at which point your body takes over and goes into a state of being, whereas in this case, Vegeta literally just screams really loudly and somehow powers up. Why? Idk, and neither do the writers.

I would also argue that this is worse than SSJ Rage, because AT LEAST Rage came after an extremely emotional moment that caused Trunks to confront feelings he never had before, and it also allowed him to fend off Black while the others escaped and formed a plan. This new Vegeta form is likely (not guaranteed but likely) to amount to jack shit in the narrative. He's going to fight Jiren for a bit, lose, and that'll be that. It comes off as shameless, vapid pandering.


UI was established before, but it was somewhat vague (and not as the '' pinnacle of forms '' as you say.) And it had nothing to indicate that it was a kind of transformation (as shown in ToP), but a technique not only the Saiyans could dominate.

And the link between UI and Whis teachings to Goku and Vegeta in RoF only happened on EP 116, several episodes after the first appearance of UI (before, even if it was something expected, it had not been confirmed that it was the same technique ). It was not explained all in one episode, I do not know why complain that Vegeta's form has not yet been properly explained, after all it appeared at the end of the episode. Neither SSJ2 nor SSJ3 had explanations, we just knew they were forms above SJS. SSJ Rosé also was not explained in the anime, we had all this hatred?

In the EP 110 what we know was that Goku unlocked this technique (which even the GoDs have a hard time mastering) after breaking the wall, which was exactly the same explanation for how Vegeta got his transformation.
Goku unlocked after a Super Genki Dama exploded in his face while Vegeta got it because of the determination to keep his promise and overcome the limits in his own way.

Obviously, UI received much more attention and highlight, after all it was one of the highlights of this saga. While the new form of Vegeta was actually introduced in a hurried way
But she only appeared for a few minutes, we know almost nothing of it to draw so many conclusions hasty.
The point is that for now, at least we know the motivation for Vegeta to achieve that form and how he unlocked it. It may seem forced, but the point is that Vegeta has always trained enough to get to that level, and TOEI is also '' fixing '' the absurd difference created between Goku and vegeta with Kaioken (and which I can not believe is in the script of Toriyama)

Elvis143BRA wrote:Good episode, but do the writers know that sacrificing speed for power (Vegeta's """"""new"""""" form) is useless?


he new form of Vegeta has no connection with the Super Vegeta of the saga Cell.
She seemed more muscular, but this is only a consequence of the new transformation (Piccolo says she is different from Blue and Daishinkan's explanation is the same as for UI Goku)


Whether or not UI was clear from the start seems irrelevant, because Toei has found a way to seamlessly give us a payoff to an idea planted years ago, whether or not it was originally intended to be this way.

Second, The reason SSJ2 didn't have an uproar is because it was established very early on in that arc that an "ascended" form was entirely possible, and it's what all of the Sayians were striving for throughout the entirety of that arc. So when Gohan achieved SSJ2, we didn't need some long winded explanation, or even a name, because we all knew what it was the moment it happened. SSJ3 is kinda bogus, but even then, again, it has the excuse of being a form that was achieved through intense training in the afterlife. I find that much easier to buy than this new Vegeta form popping up out of nowhere. And Rose was VERY CLEARLY supposed to just be SSB but for a god, hence the color difference. Black dances around it and doesn't do the best job of explaining this, but he still all but confirms it in his following monologue.

Third, you say "Goku unlocked after a Super Genki Dama exploded in his face while Vegeta got it because of the determination to keep his promise and overcome the limits in his own way." But that's a fundamental difference that is important. UI is established right away in that moment as a state of being that requires immense physical stress and an event to spark the transformation. This Vegeta form is...well...just nothing. He just screams real loud and tries real hard and thinks real hard, and boom, new form unlocked? Really? That seems extremely lame and contrived. And again it comes out of nowhere with no prior establishment, which is my fundamental point to all of this that I will continue to repeat.

I also don't see how the power gap between Goku and Vegeta NEEDS "fixing". Again, when did it just become a law of the land that Vegeta always needs to be equal to or right behind Goku? Why is that necessary for the story? I just don't buy that we always need Vegeta nipping at the heels of Goku for the plot to move along.


No, no one knew that it really was a kind of SSJ2. And even if during the saga the established goal was to '' surpass SJS, '' what happened to Gohan was not related to that.

Basically, Gohan was erased for most of the saga. In the end, we see Goku betting all on Gohan's '' hidden potential '' and that with that potential he could outnumber anyone. Goku worked on this in training on RoSaT (instead of trying to overcome SSJ, since SSJ grade 2 and 3 were useless), and in the end what it seemed was that all that Gohan's power that Cell was derived from his great potential as a hybrid.
So it does not make sense to use as an argument '' the premise of the saga was to overcome the SSJ, '' and when Gohan overcame the SSJ, that was no longer highlighted. So much so that when Gohan became SSJ2, no one tried to explain the transformation, they only knew that this was Gohan's true power, not just a form beyond SSJ.

And SSJ3 is one of the most forced transformations that suddenly appeared in the series.
Goku told Piccolo and Kuririn that he was not able to defeat Boo, because if Vegeta (who had an SSJ2 at the same level as Goku) could not, then he would not be able to. That's precisely why he bet on the merger of Goten and Trunks.

However, a few chapters later Goku simply appears in a form much superior to SSJ2, able to rival Boo, and later told by Goku himself that he really was able to beat Boo (contradicting what was said before). The only justification was '' training '', something VERY vague and not very different from what happened with SSJ2. But mysteriously only Goku was able to achieve this state by training.

If that's the case, Vegeta in DBS has also been training hard and participating in countless battles over the years, in addition to training on RoSaT twice. Basically, with only a '' boost '' of motivation, he was able to break his shell just like Goku and unleash his full potential (for now, at least).
And SSJ Rosé was '' supposed '' to be another version of SSB. But before the manga explained this transformation, this was still just '' supposition, '' since the anime never explained and a magazine still hinted that this was just Black's regular form of SSJ.

Then a Genki Dama with the power to defeat Jiren, swallowed Goku completely and the only explanation of how he came out alive is that the power of the technique collided with that of Goku who "resisted strongly," unlocking his potential. Not to mention that the Genki Dama suddenly served as SOURCE OF ENERGY to Goku's body (even though it exploded). Does this look completely natural?
So that was a way for Goku to break his shell. It does not mean that any warrior who wants to do the same needs a Genki Dama to explode in his face. Vegeta has overcome its limits in its own way, through a motivation. And he apparently did not even get the same power up as Goku, unlike SSJ Rage who apparently has a power up close to SSB

Lord Beerus wrote:
Artorias wrote:I also don't see how the power gap between Goku and Vegeta NEEDS "fixing". Again, when did it just become a law of the land that Vegeta always needs to be equal to or right behind Goku? Why is that necessary for the story? I just don't buy that we always need Vegeta nipping at the heels of Goku for the plot to move along.

To be fair, I do like the idea that Goku and Vegeta are on level pegging and constantly look for way to one-up each other. But at the same time, it's not mandatory.


No one is saying it's mandatory that Vegeta is always on the same level as Goku.
But the gap of powers between Goku and Vegeta created by the Kaioken seemed very forced and artificial. Especially because in the key moments of the sagas, in which the Kaioken was most needed, Goku did not use.
Vegeta was surprised at the Champa tournament, but in the ensuing sagas he acted as if Goku had never surpassed him. Not even tried to learn something to close this power gap, unlike what happened now with the UI.

In the manga, Goku also overcame Vegeta with the MSSB, but soon after Vegeta also got the MSSB and equaled Goku. Precisely because he did not want to stay behind his rival. And having a couple of times on the same level is something interesting because Goku does not have to be the one to always solve the situations

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby Artorias » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:30 am

Lord Beerus wrote:
Artorias wrote:I also don't see how the power gap between Goku and Vegeta NEEDS "fixing". Again, when did it just become a law of the land that Vegeta always needs to be equal to or right behind Goku? Why is that necessary for the story? I just don't buy that we always need Vegeta nipping at the heels of Goku for the plot to move along.

To be fair, I do like the idea that Goku and Vegeta are on level pegging and constantly look for way to one-up each other. But at the same time, it's not mandatory.


Oh yea, don't get me wrong, I like the idea of them being relative in power. But anytime Goku gets ahead, it causes a panic among the fanbase of "OMG when is Vegeta gonna be equal! He needs to catch up!" *hyperventilating* . Give it time, people. We don't need to freak out if there's a power gap between the two. It's not a sport.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby TheSaiyanGod » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:45 am

Artorias wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Artorias wrote:I also don't see how the power gap between Goku and Vegeta NEEDS "fixing". Again, when did it just become a law of the land that Vegeta always needs to be equal to or right behind Goku? Why is that necessary for the story? I just don't buy that we always need Vegeta nipping at the heels of Goku for the plot to move along.

To be fair, I do like the idea that Goku and Vegeta are on level pegging and constantly look for way to one-up each other. But at the same time, it's not mandatory.


Oh yea, don't get me wrong, I like the idea of them being relative in power. But anytime Goku gets ahead, it causes a panic among the fanbase of "OMG when is Vegeta gonna be equal! He needs to catch up!" *hyperventilating* . Give it time, people. We don't need to freak out if there's a power gap between the two. It's not a sport.


Of course. Goku is MUCH stronger than Vegeta to almost 3 whole sagas because of Kaioken.

So when the UI showed up, it's obvious that Vegeta fans will be even more annoyed that Vegeta is so inferior (and TOEI did not even seem to want to match the dosi).

In the manga, Goku overcame Vegeta in the Future Trunks Saga, but few chapters ofopis Vegeta trains and manages to equalize again to his rival.
No one is saying that it is obligatory to be Goku = Vegeta, but sometimes it is good that both are on the same level

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby lancerman » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:55 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Artorias wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:To be fair, I do like the idea that Goku and Vegeta are on level pegging and constantly look for way to one-up each other. But at the same time, it's not mandatory.


Oh yea, don't get me wrong, I like the idea of them being relative in power. But anytime Goku gets ahead, it causes a panic among the fanbase of "OMG when is Vegeta gonna be equal! He needs to catch up!" *hyperventilating* . Give it time, people. We don't need to freak out if there's a power gap between the two. It's not a sport.


Of course. Goku is MUCH stronger than Vegeta to almost 3 whole sagas because of Kaioken.

So when the UI showed up, it's obvious that Vegeta fans will be even more annoyed that Vegeta is so inferior (and TOEI did not even seem to want to match the dosi).

In the manga, Goku overcame Vegeta in the Future Trunks Saga, but few chapters ofopis Vegeta trains and manages to equalize again to his rival.
No one is saying that it is obligatory to be Goku = Vegeta, but sometimes it is good that both are on the same level


I think it's good just because having Vegeta keep up because of the rivalry guarantees that we don't get in situations again where Goku's the only person capable of handling a threat (even if he ultimately wins in the end). The series did a lot of work to powerscale everyone else to something respectable.


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