Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby precita » Sun Jan 14, 2018 2:58 pm

I still don't get why after Jiren knocks out Goku or Vegeta he just leaves them there to regain their stamina and fight again. If Jiren had knocked Vegeta out of the ring after he defeated him, he wouldn't be dealing with this magical form right now.

Jiren stands there staring with his big black bug eyes and stoic face.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby Torturephile » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:22 pm

I've been thinking that Goku was smarter than usual this episode after pulling those tricks on Jiren. It seems that the dork days of Goku from episodes such as 42 and 53 are fortunately long gone. Makes me wonder, would it be better if Vegeta pulled those tricks on episode 122 instead, considering his supposed "strategic and tactical" mindset for battle he has?

precita wrote:The animators of the last two episodes should have been reversed. If this ep had last weeks animator it would have been a contender for a 9/10 episode.

I half wish that was the case, but it would have made episode 122 even more lackluster.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby Gt91 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:25 pm

precita wrote:I still don't get why after Jiren knocks out Goku or Vegeta he just leaves them there to regain their stamina and fight again. If Jiren had knocked Vegeta out of the ring after he defeated him, he wouldn't be dealing with this magical form right now.

Jiren stands there staring with his big black bug eyes and stoic face.



Yeah, they are milking to much this tournament.
Maybe jiren will get serious in the last 5 minutes.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:28 pm

Asura wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I think the art and animation is generally better than last week.


Have you hit your head? Or perhaps had too much to drink? I don’t see how anyone could logically come to this conclusion.

I am fully aware of what other people think, yes.

But I'm just not sold on Takahashi's style. It just doesn't work for Super in my opinion. The angular line work makes the bodies look too sharp, there's too much intensity in the dark lines, and I don't like how it all comes together in motion.

If this were the overall style, I'd probably like it. But it's not, and in fact stands out too much. For some people, that's okay. But for me, it's jarring to see the difference compared to the normal animation and art style. Simple line work and that's not too pronounced goes a long way in making things look good AND flow nicely. This is just a personal preference, since I overall like Super's usual style over what Takahashi brings to the table.

It's not always great, but it works for me.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby Son Vegito » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:42 pm

Amazing episode. The two latest episodes in 2018, the so called finale of the arc, have been splendid so far. Hopefully it keeps this up until the end.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby Noah » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:20 pm

Saturnine wrote:Well what can I say - Jiren is the type of opponent that Toei Goku could easily get rid of using the bullshit, asspull attack called Dragon Fist...


UI Goku using the Ultimate Dragon Fist with Super Shenron showing instead of regular Shenron? Please, make it real! :D
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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby dbs fanboy » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:36 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Asura wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I think the art and animation is generally better than last week.


Have you hit your head? Or perhaps had too much to drink? I don’t see how anyone could logically come to this conclusion.

I am fully aware of what other people think, yes.

But I'm just not sold on Takahashi's style. It just doesn't work for Super in my opinion. The angular line work makes the bodies look too sharp, there's too much intensity in the dark lines, and I don't like how it all comes together in motion.

If this were the overall style, I'd probably like it. But it's not, and in fact stands out too much. For some people, that's okay. But for me, it's jarring to see the difference compared to the normal animation and art style. Simple line work and that's not too pronounced goes a long way in making things look good AND flow nicely. This is just a personal preference, since I overall like Super's usual style over what Takahashi brings to the table.

It's not always great, but it works for me.

Well, damn this really is an actual unpopular opinion. Would you be ok with it if (for example) an entire arc had that style instead of some episodes?
I really miss ma boy, Black :( :cry:


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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby dnavenom » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:26 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Asura wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I think the art and animation is generally better than last week.


Have you hit your head? Or perhaps had too much to drink? I don’t see how anyone could logically come to this conclusion.

I am fully aware of what other people think, yes.

But I'm just not sold on Takahashi's style. It just doesn't work for Super in my opinion. The angular line work makes the bodies look too sharp, there's too much intensity in the dark lines, and I don't like how it all comes together in motion.

If this were the overall style, I'd probably like it. But it's not, and in fact stands out too much. For some people, that's okay. But for me, it's jarring to see the difference compared to the normal animation and art style. Simple line work and that's not too pronounced goes a long way in making things look good AND flow nicely. This is just a personal preference, since I overall like Super's usual style over what Takahashi brings to the table.

It's not always great, but it works for me.


Impossible! :) Back in the days of DBZ, there were few directors making the episodes. I really don`t know their names by heart, but I waited for every third episode just to see some quality art (very similar to Takahashi`s)

With Takahashi everything is better: anatomy, movement, effects and so on, but most of all faces and shadows. The other artists just don`t sculpt the face right. Almost everyone gets the frontal view decent, but when the angle changes, faces start looking absurd. No one gets Vegeta`s forehead right. There is a special ratio face-forehead for him. If you don`t get it right, it`s not Vegeta. Takahashi does it perfect. He is a gem and honestly I can`t wait to see the episodes he made. I`m saying this as an artist, I`m having troubles getting Vegeta right myself and this guys makes whole episodes looking perfect. You gotta respect him for that.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby t0ffe3m4n » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:27 pm

I think this arc has been very 'up and down' really, for me personally anyway.

We've seen some good moments, particularly in the last few weeks with the tournament beginning to wind down, but between the pacing, the incredibly inconsistent art/animation and certain story/writing elements (*cough*randomtransformations*cough*) just generally being a mess it keeps pulling me back out.

I just don't understand why the quality of this show has to be so inconsistent when the franchise itself is so incredibly popular & profitable. It needed more money and time dedicated to it, at least for this particular arc if anything.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:45 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:
sintzu wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:Yeah, I can't really tell if Vegeta's new form is equal to: 1) SSBlue Kaioken Goku; 2) SSBlue Kaioken x20 Goku; 3) UI Goku

What do you guys think?


I think it's equal to whatever Goku is currently using which is probably ×20.


piffolo wrote:
ChiefWamsutta wrote:Yeah, I can't really tell if Vegeta's new form is equal to: 1) SSBlue Kaioken Goku; 2) SSBlue Kaioken x20 Goku; 3) UI Goku

What do you guys think?

Between Grand Priest saying "Vegeta san appears to have broken through his shell, too", Vegeta's eyes having the same glow and blank stare that Goku does when he goes Ultra Instinct https://imgur.com/a/A5tzk , and the heavy foreshadowing in the last 13 episodes that Vegeta will eventually reach UI (Like Vegeta dodging Jiren's flurry of punches and Whis mentioning UI https://youtu.be/xLj_oT1zYvg?t=2m17s ) I'm pretty much convinced that he's at least as strong as UI Goku was in rd 1 vs Jiren, but I'm also the a huge Vegeta fanboy so this could all just be wishful headcanon on my part


I agree with you both. I think at the absolute minimum Vegeta's new form is equal to Goku SSB KKx20. We'll probably find out if he is equal to UI Goku later on.

Also, how did the name Super Saiyan Cobalt sound? Not Good? Pretty Solid? Just curious on feedback.

Ah, nice to see you here. :wave:

Name I chose for it was "Super Vegeta Blue" given its simplicity, the fact that it's a transformation unique to Vegeta and due to his muscles appearing to expand slightly (though not as much as Super Vegeta). But that's me.

Ok so, judging from the titles of episodes 125 and 126 from the spoilers, assuming Vegeta fights GoD Toppo, I'd guess this form's power enough to beat an opponent at Hakaishin level (Toppo), while UI is enough to beat an opponent who has already comfortably surpassed Hakaishin level (Jiren).

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby ChiefWamsutta » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:00 pm

TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:Ah, nice to see you here. :wave:

Name I chose for it was "Super Vegeta Blue" given its simplicity, the fact that it's a transformation unique to Vegeta and due to his muscles appearing to expand slightly (though not as much as Super Vegeta). But that's me.

Ok so, judging from the titles of episodes 125 and 126 from the spoilers, assuming Vegeta fights GoD Toppo, I'd guess this form's power enough to beat an opponent at Hakaishin level (Toppo), while UI is enough to beat an opponent who has already comfortably surpassed Hakaishin level (Jiren).


Haha, hey, there!! :thumbup: Yeah, since that post I came to the conclusion that Super Saiyan Royal Blue would be a nice name. It's a darker colored aura and hair and Vegeta is of royal Saiyan heritage.

I feel they have moved beyond the numerical ascension because of SSBlue Kaioken. An SSB2 and SSB3 would be far weaker than SSB KKx20, which Goku already has control over. An SSB2 would look more like SSBlue, just with electricity. The aura, muscle mass, and hair color of Vegeta's SSBlue changed too differently.

This definitely isn't a SSBlue Grade 2 or SSBlue 2. It's something new equal to SSBlue Kaioken x20.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:34 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:
TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:Ah, nice to see you here. :wave:

Name I chose for it was "Super Vegeta Blue" given its simplicity, the fact that it's a transformation unique to Vegeta and due to his muscles appearing to expand slightly (though not as much as Super Vegeta). But that's me.

Ok so, judging from the titles of episodes 125 and 126 from the spoilers, assuming Vegeta fights GoD Toppo, I'd guess this form's power enough to beat an opponent at Hakaishin level (Toppo), while UI is enough to beat an opponent who has already comfortably surpassed Hakaishin level (Jiren).


Haha, hey, there!! :thumbup: Yeah, since that post I came to the conclusion that Super Saiyan Royal Blue would be a nice name. It's a darker colored aura and hair and Vegeta is of royal Saiyan heritage.

I feel they have moved beyond the numerical ascension because of SSBlue Kaioken. An SSB2 and SSB3 would be far weaker than SSB KKx20, which Goku already has control over. An SSB2 would look more like SSBlue, just with electricity. The aura, muscle mass, and hair color of Vegeta's SSBlue changed too differently.

This definitely isn't a SSBlue Grade 2 or SSBlue 2. It's something new equal to SSBlue Kaioken x20.

Now that's funny, I just saw the name "Super Saiyan Royal Blue" in a comment section on YouTube watching an AnimeAjay video just now :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I wouldn't mind that name in all honesty. I still kinda think the form is in between KKx20 and UI personally.
Last edited by TheShadowEmperor8055 on Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby Jigurashi » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:42 pm

Torturephile wrote:I've been thinking that Goku was smarter than usual this episode after pulling those tricks on Jiren. It seems that the dork days of Goku from episodes such as 42 and 53 are fortunately long gone. Makes me wonder, would it be better if Vegeta pulled those tricks on episode 122 instead, considering his supposed "strategic and tactical" mindset for battle he has?

precita wrote:The animators of the last two episodes should have been reversed. If this ep had last weeks animator it would have been a contender for a 9/10 episode.

I half wish that was the case, but it would have made episode 122 even more lackluster.

I mean he was being tactical in 38 and early 39. Super tends to show off Goku's fighting IQ more often than Z did.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby TheShadowEmperor8055 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:50 pm

Will admit aside from this shot, Vegeta's now-pupil'd eyes looked quite weird throughout the episode. I hope this is just only due to how this episode wasn't executed as well as usual this week.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby ChiefWamsutta » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:43 pm

TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:Now that's funny, I just saw the name "Super Saiyan Royal Blue" in a comment section on YouTube watching an AnimeAjay video just now :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I wouldn't mind that name in all honesty. I still kinda think the form is in between KKx20 and UI personally.


The aura, hair color, pupils, and muscle mass of Vegeta's new form don't match up with a Grade 2 or an SS2, so this is something entirely different. I have heard "Ultra Blue", "Transcended Super Saiyan Blue", and "Super Saiyan Royal Blue". These all seem like better choices for a name. I am hesitant to call it "Ultra Blue" because we don't know if it has a connection to UI. So I would pick "Super Saiyan Royal Blue" out of the last two because of its connection to Vegeta.

It's gotta be at minimum equal to SSB KKx20. We will probably see it reaching UI level in the next episodes.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby ssj3kakarot » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:15 pm

Torturephile wrote:I've been thinking that Goku was smarter than usual this episode after pulling those tricks on Jiren. It seems that the dork days of Goku from episodes such as 42 and 53 are fortunately long gone. Makes me wonder, would it be better if Vegeta pulled those tricks on episode 122 instead, considering his supposed "strategic and tactical" mindset for battle he has?

precita wrote:The animators of the last two episodes should have been reversed. If this ep had last weeks animator it would have been a contender for a 9/10 episode.

I half wish that was the case, but it would have made episode 122 even more lackluster.



This episode we finally were able to watch Goku as he is intended to be as a fighter. He is a freak of nature when it comes to fighting. I know everyone thinks he is an idiot, but when it comes to martial arts, he is in a class of his own.

VS Raditz, he deduces to grab his tail and sacrifice
VS Vegeta, epic fight but he's able to duke it out with Vegeta who is much stronger than him.
VS Frieza, he uses the kamehameha balls in the water to distract him. Honestly there are countless times on Namek where we get this master-fighter Goku do some very well thought through moves and decisions. He is fighting Frieza while having a conversation about what wishes to be made, all the while fighitng Frieza.
VS Cell: He does incredible well against the split form, his IT+kamehameha
VS Buu: Nothing really stands out to me, just a good action packed Goku.

This doesn't even include Dragonball Goku. These are some of the examples of what makes Goku in Dbz the GOAT. So when we see his fighting prowess come out in 123, it makes sense.

I personally liked to see Goku use the new land-mine ki technique, the disctructo-disc move, really everything he did made Goku look like, well, like Goku is suppose to look like.
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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby AloversGaming » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:16 pm

Kaiosama wrote:
Bullza wrote:
Kaiosama wrote:Vegeta's new form is such a cringey unforgivable asspull. Far worse than Super Saiyan Ikari Trunks. At least we know that his new form is weaker than UI and Goku is still the superior warrior.


Most forms are asspulls in this series. It's not even a new form. It's just the same form with a vast amount more power that it's broke his limits.


Still far inferior to UI Goku.


Looks better than UI Goku, which is just base Goku with a blue aura around him, but with the awful middle spike in his hair modern Goku artists give him.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby AloversGaming » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:20 pm

Artorias wrote:This is the first episode with mediocre animation that I actually enjoyed in a long time. Usually poor animation is enough to make me check out, but not this time. Just goes to show how strong everything else was.


I felt the same way. Goku's plans against Jiren were fun to see and Jiren's power up after nearly getting knocked out was so good. Goku & Vegeta watching him walk through his minefield as they tried to prepare for their coming ass whooping was great!

The episode was much better written than 122. If this had 122's art and animation it'd be a fan favourite for sure.

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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby Noah » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:41 pm

TheShadowEmperor8055 wrote:Will admit aside from this shot, Vegeta's now-pupil'd eyes looked quite weird throughout the episode. I hope this is just only due to how this episode wasn't executed as well as usual this week.


For Christ sake he looks like a freaking Pokémon!
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Re: Super Episode 123 (14 January 2018)

Postby Artorias » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:57 pm

lancerman wrote:
Artorias wrote:
lancerman wrote:People are getting way too up tight about Vegeta's transformation. Is it really a whole lot different from the difference between the difference between SSJ and SSJ 2. Vegeta's hair changed and it's a darker blue, his eyes turned an even darker shade of blue, and he has a new sparkley aura. How different is that from slightly spikier hair and lightning in the aura?

Just call this Super Saiyan Blue 2 or Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan 2.


The problem is the writers should actually just come out and SAY that it is in fact SSB2. That's all they would have to do, but since they for whatever reason refuse to explain ANYTHING in this show, we're left to just make up our own headcanon, which is bad writing.

What did they call SSJ2 when SSJ2 first happened? It was just Gohan going 1 step further than before. It really wasn't even a defined form until SSJ3. It was just Gohan's special thing

There's virtually no difference. There's actually arguably more difference because Vegeta's hair changed a little bit and changed to a darker shade, his eyes got a darker shade of blue, he has more muscles, and he has a new aura with sparkles. I think people are going overboard on this one.


The difference there is SSJ2 or "ascended" or whatever the hell the characters thought it was in the Cell saga was actually built up early on. Everyone knew it feasibly existed, so when Gohan finally achieved it, everyone knew what had just happened. In the characters' minds it was effectively the "second" or "ascended" version of Super Saiyan. THIS on the other hand comes out of nowhere and the characters had no idea it could even be done. It just sorta...happens, with no build up, name, or even acknowledgement from Goku who's standing right next to him.

TheSaiyanGod wrote:Then, nothing more fair than her to create something else, that makes Vegeta equal to Goku now.


I don't understand this mentality at all in this fandom. It's not about being "fair" to Vegeta, or any character. It's about telling a convincing narrative. Vegeta doesn't "deserve" anything. He's a fictional character in a story. When did fans somehow get the idea that Vegeta needs to be treated "fairly" and constantly stick with Goku in terms of power at every moment always?


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