Toppo, Jiren, and Toriyama's statement about Goku not surpassing Beerus

[shadd21]

With Toppo likly becoming GoD level in ep125 and Jiren being stated to be equal to a GoD if not stronger, Anyone feel Toriyama and Toei may have jumped the gun by forcing Goku and Vegeta into a scenario where they must defeat two guys who are around Beerus' level despite Toriyama himself claiming Goku and Vegeta will not be surpassing Beerus.

[sintzu]

They can get away with it because we've yet to see a piece of Beerus' full power so they can have him be as strong as they need him to be by keeping him in the background like they've been doing.

Once the fights are over Beerus can say something like "you 2 have finally reached a "fraction" of my power so keep it up". By saying it like that it shows that they've moved forward in terms of catching up to beerus but using a word like fraction instead of a number leaves things open for them to do what they want without worrying about going against established facts.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Back when Toriyama made that comment, he said that he didn't want the two Saiyans surpassing Beerus anytime soon.

However, that was back when the tournament between Universe 6 and 7 was starting up.

It's been one whole arc and deep into the second one following that, plus over a year in the real world. I believe that, by introducing a character like Jiren who may potentially be on the level of the Hakaishin and possibly beyond it and an ability like the Ultra Instinct, it's Toriyama's way of finally allowing Goku to "potentially" surpass that wall that has existed for so long.

We have to remember that Beerus was unsurpassed for several years after his initial introduction in Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods. It may be that Toriyama is moving to create a storyline where Goku could feasibly attain a power that "might" allow him to surpass Beerus, but the jury's out on whether or not his outlines will fully follow through. We also have to consider the timing in-universe.

Uub has been mentioned as an important foreshadowing point for the original series' ending, something which won't be changed. It's only a short 3 years until Goku fights Uub at the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. The story beats have so far been about breaking one's limits, but the question that remains is this: once your limitations are broken, what's next? It is my humble opinion that we're seeing the start of the setup that leads Goku down the path where he decides to take Uub under his wing to train him.

[Kanious]

I doubt that Goku and Vegeta will surpass GoD level. Jiren is still far ahead of them, and it would look like a massive asspull to make Goku or Vegeta get in that level in "48 minutes".

They can fuse to get to that level, they can win without being stronger, and there is a possibility of Jiren himself winning the tournament.

I just hope that they don't fuck up the power scaling now, as the scaling seems very consistent on this arc.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Recent information seems to suggest that Super may be going on a brief hiatus by the time of April.

It could be that this is a move to give the series a nice "last hurrah" before they take a break. The show's too popular to just be outright ended, but it seems as though they're playing all their cards for allowing the series to take a break with a small semblance of finality.

Surpassing Beerus, coming to terms with knowing what must be done with regards to Uub, etc.

[Kenneth La Torre]

That statement was made a very long time ago, not even the zamasu arc was known of yet.

[ToshioWrites]

I personally believe Jiren > Beerus but Toppo becoming GoD doesn't mean he is close to Beerus level. The manga and anime scale differently and its possibly Toppo might only reach the level of the weakest GoD so if vegeta beats him it doesn't mean he's on level with Beerus. Goku beating Jiren is a different story tho

[Helios518]

I doubt that Goku and Vegeta will surpass GoD level. Jiren is still far ahead of them, and it would look like a massive asspull to make Goku or Vegeta get in that level in "48 minutes".

They can fuse to get to that level, they can win without being stronger, and there is a possibility of Jiren himself winning the tournament.

I just hope that they don't fuck up the power scaling now, as the scaling seems very consistent on this arc.

They have been specifically trying to get on Beerus's level since BoG meaning it took 4 arcs and 3 transformations (SSJG, SSJB, SSJBKKx20/Vegeta's form, UI) to achieve this level (assuming they do). The execution of Goku getting UI may be asspullish as it came out of nowhere, them being on that level by this time wouldn't. Also by your logic, Goku going SSJ and being on Freeza's level is an ass-pull.

[Kanious]

They have been specifically trying to get on Beerus's level since BoG meaning it took 4 arcs and 3 transformations (SSJG, SSJB, SSJBKKx20/Vegeta's form, UI) to achieve this level (assuming they do). The execution of Goku getting UI may be asspullish as it came out of nowhere, them being on that level by this time wouldn't. Also by your logic, Goku going SSJ and being on Freeza's level is an ass-pull.

i think you got it wrong. I'm just saying that... Even Goku with UI doesn't seem anywhere close to Jiren's power, and he isn't fighting serious yet. I can't see how a unfused character can get in the same level or beyond.

[Helios518]

They have been specifically trying to get on Beerus's level since BoG meaning it took 4 arcs and 3 transformations (SSJG, SSJB, SSJBKKx20/Vegeta's form, UI) to achieve this level (assuming they do). The execution of Goku getting UI may be asspullish as it came out of nowhere, them being on that level by this time wouldn't. Also by your logic, Goku going SSJ and being on Freeza's level is an ass-pull.

i think you got it wrong. I'm just saying that... Even Goku with UI doesn't seem anywhere close to Jiren's power, and he isn't fighting serious yet. I can't see how a unfused character can get in the same level or beyond.

Goku didn’t have a mastered UI when he fought Geran. If Goku completes a technique that even GoDs like Beerus have much trouble doing then I don’t know how you can’t see Goku achieving at least GoD level as a possibility.

[Kanious]

Goku didn’t have a mastered UI when he fought Geran. If Goku completes a technique that even GoDs like Beerus have much trouble doing then I don’t know how you can’t see Goku achieving at least GoD level as a possibility.

does mastering the UI mean that he will be faaaaaar stronger than before in powerscale? Will mastering it be a giant multiplier of the unmastered UI?

I can see him winning by strategy, but not by force. I could be wrong, but the show implies that Jiren is in another level, and if Goku surpasses him it will be the asspull of the century, for me it will be far worse than everything Gohan had in Z.

As I said before, i doubt that Goku will win by POWER. Maybe by strategy, maybe u7 win by having more members on arena, maybe we'll have some kind of draw, or even fusion. But who knows... i can be entirely wrong.

[Lionel]

Power has been the cornerstone to Dragon Ball's combat system since its inception. It could be revamped if Toriyama and other powers had the willingness to invest in a more diversified portfolio of methodological components but it would take a radical overhaul of not just what was mentioned just now but also the mindsets of the characters. You have this firmly ingrained philosophical notion that power is singlemost paramount quality of fights -- either you commit yourself to training in order to evolve into a hulky powerhouse who plays with the toys he's been given or you relinquish any chance at being a tangible momentum changer. It's a binary either/or situation. What's sad is that it doesn't have to be that way -- we already have a foundation in place for non-strength oriented methods being used to incapacitate or defeat a stronger opponent. Remember the Dracula Man and Puar/Up fight? All they did was use some clever exploitation of vampiric clichés and transformative tactics to disarm their opponent before eliminating him. There's also General Blue's paralysis arts rendering Goku immobile. Blue had him dead to rights and would have succeeded in killing him were it not for a gag-induced intervention of a rat to startle the general. Let's also not forget how the Mafuba is essentially a victory stealer for anyone against everything, provided they know the technique to begin with.

Crazy power increases have happened before. On Namek, Goku ultimately transitioned from a starting amount of 90,000 to 150,000,000 in the span of a few hours at most. You've got a disparity there that's closer to 2000 times than the triple digits. Goku overtaking Beerus at this point would be a stretch but the precedent is there.

[buutenks]

You know what's funny? That Toriyama said that years ago, so he proly forgot he even said that.

I think people take in what Toriyama says to seriously. He just says what he feels at that given moment, he doesnt have some plan or script or something where he writes everything and checks what he said in the passed and so forth. He just makes stuff up as he goes. When he said that, he didnt feel like Goku should surpass Beerus, ofc 10 days later or heck even the next day he may have felt that Goku should surpass Beerus.