Why do you think Super is ending ?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Basaku » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:33 am

TheMikado wrote: It has nothing at all to do with GT. The fact is they had no merchandise of significance to sell during that time period.
Look at your own charts you posted and compare it to this list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_D ... ames#2010s

Even without a new series they did significant sales because they had quality merchandise to sell just in video games alone.
The numbers show historically that even without a new series Z merchandise can and does sell with quality product.

I wouldn't even argue the bulk of it is Super related branding because they do not have a major Super branded product beyond the anime itself. You are arguing that the brand of "Super" carries weight by looking at a chart, when they decided to put it on "hiatus". How much sense does that make?
Do you realize that video game sales have nothing to do with Toei's numbers? That's Bandai, Toei doesn't get the cash from DLC or anything. So using "but the videogames!" argument over and over again changes nothing when it comes to having a quick look at the obvious that is apparent in Toei's financial charts.

Do you also realize that Toei gets money from licensing the show around the world?

Also, Bandai's non-video game side of business increased to record numbers in 16/17 period as well.

So where is all this increase coming from, please tell me. GT lol? 5 years old BOG movie?

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by ernesth100 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:37 am

Part of a much bigger plan to take a break, build hype, make some extra cash with minimal effort(and by minimal effort I mean the dub, merchandise, games and movies) and then come back with a series to end it all probably some time by 2019-2020. Which I would not be a stranger to wait for honestly.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by TheMikado » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:40 am

Basaku wrote:
TheMikado wrote: It has nothing at all to do with GT. The fact is they had no merchandise of significance to sell during that time period.
Look at your own charts you posted and compare it to this list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_D ... ames#2010s

Even without a new series they did significant sales because they had quality merchandise to sell just in video games alone.
The numbers show historically that even without a new series Z merchandise can and does sell with quality product.

I wouldn't even argue the bulk of it is Super related branding because they do not have a major Super branded product beyond the anime itself. You are arguing that the brand of "Super" carries weight by looking at a chart, when they decided to put it on "hiatus". How much sense does that make?
Do you realize that video game sales have nothing to do with Toei's numbers? That's Bandai, Toei doesn't get the cash from DLC or anything. So using "but the videogames!" argument over and over again changes nothing when it comes to having a quick look at the obvious that is apparent in Toei's financial charts.

Do you also realize that Toei gets money from licensing the show around the world?

Also, Bandai's non-video game side of business increased to record numbers in 16/17 period as well.

So where is all this increase coming from, please tell me. GT lol? 5 years old BOG movie?

Sure, I actually did some research and followed various links. This is the information from following these links. This is a report released in the end of Oct. 17

http://comicbook.com/anime/2017/11/21/d ... ion-money/
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... ar/.123624
http://animationbusiness.info/archives/4239

I will simply post the original report.
After the Toei Animation finished the project in the first half, its good performance is outstanding. On October 27, we announced the second quarter financial results for the fiscal year ending March 2018, but we recorded record highs for consolidated sales and each profit.
 Net sales increased by 18.6% from the same period last year to 23,444 million yen, exceeding the 20 billion yen mark as early as possible. Operating income is 5,962 million yen (34.7% increase), ordinary income is 6,281 million yen (36.2% increase), net income is 4,291 million yen (25% increase), profit growth is large.

■ "Dragon Ball Z Docking Battle" supporting the achievement is worldwide 200 million downloads

 Supporting strong performance is the sharp rise in copyright business centered on secondary development of works and characters. It increased by 52.5% in sales to 13,019 million yen, exceeding half of the total. Operating income also increased 56.5% to 6,097 million yen. In particular, the growth of overseas copyrights was large, almost doubling, up by 91.8% to 6,233 million yen.
 It is the game related to "Dragon Ball" that drives the business. Domestically, the application game "Dragon Ball Z Dokkan Battle" was even better than the previous term.
 "Dokkan Battle" is popular not only in Japan, but also overseas. Since its release, the total number of downloads worldwide has exceeded 200 million. In the sales ranking of the App Store, it has become the title of Japan, such as winning first in 14 countries. In North America, the hit of the home game "Dragon Ball Zeno Barth 2" also contributed.

 However, although it tends to overlook with the favorable game-related situation, it is necessary not to be aware that the whole business is not necessarily growing as a whole in the business. In the image production and sales business, sales increased by 7.2%, to 7,667 million yen, but operating profit decreased by 36.0% to 1.0 billion yen.
 The TV animation division increased from 1,691 million yen in the previous year to 1,793 million yen due to the increase in the number of production titles from 4 works to 6 works, but the theater where the reaction of "ONE PIECE FILM GOLD" was rebounded In the animation division, it decreased by half from 498 million yen to 412,100 yen, and the contents division based on the video package was almost 399 million yen, which is almost the same as the previous year.
 Meanwhile, overseas business was also strong, video sales for overseas increased by 18.5% to 3,896 million yen. Distribution right to China, "Dragon Ball" series for North America led to increased sales.

■ Animation industry trends "App Game", "Overseas", "Delivery" Results

 We are reporting that sales of video distribution rights domestically is also favorable in distribution and other businesses. The expansion of the flat rate distribution market has led to substantial increases in revenue.
 The Toei animation settlements clearly show the trends such as "app game", "oversea", "distribution", which are the topics of the current animation industry. Capturing these trends and connecting to business is a strength of Toei animation. In the app game for China, from 2017 to 18, new works are introduced one after another, such as "Saint Seiya," "ONE PIECE," "Digital Monster," and "Arale".

■ Improve production environment and promote daytime work

 A high level of profit is likely to be invested in future business development, improvement of production environment and technology.
 Following "Corrective Cad" in cooperation with Amazon Prime in the project, the production of "Knights of the Zodiac (Tentative)" for Netflix is ​​proceeding. "Movie version Mazinger Z / INFINITY" will be published in Italy and France as a title for overseas.
 In the production system, rebuilding of Oizumi Studio was completed in August. Start full-scale operation from January 18. Improvement of production environment and improvement of productivity can be expected with the latest equipment.
 In addition to hardware, the reform of software aspect also advances. Promote shifts in daytime work in the animation industry, which is said to have a lot of nighttime work. In this, we aim to maintain and improve quality and productivity.
 The outcome of these investments is expected to be medium to long term rather than short-term. In recent years, however, the result of such efforts will depend on whether Toei animation which grows rapidly grows further.
As stated. The TV animation department itself is not contributing huge growth itself and is done through other sales. The most valuable seems to be game related as well as increased DVD sales. A separate report claimed the increase was in dragonball and z related DVDs which would encompass the DB "series".

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Professor Freeza » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:42 am

TheMikado wrote:
Again, the other non Super related products are producing crazy nuumbers. You can clearly see by Toei's own admission that the Super anime sales are not contributing to much growth because their entire anime sales only grew 96 million yen. And that includes all anime sales. Super is working as a marketing tool but if their entire anime sales only increased 96 million yen a year and the Super anime alone costs at likely around 1 billion yen to make a year it's hard to argue that the anime in and of itself is making money. As stated if they can introduce new merchandise and characters minus the 1 billion yen cost, then yes they will.

Actually looking at the numbers again they LOST 4x as much in their theatrical anime releases as they gained in anime sales. So this makes even more sense why they would refocus on movies instead.

Oh shit..................

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by TheMikado » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:49 am

Professor Freeza wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Again, the other non Super related products are producing crazy nuumbers. You can clearly see by Toei's own admission that the Super anime sales are not contributing to much growth because their entire anime sales only grew 96 million yen. And that includes all anime sales. Super is working as a marketing tool but if their entire anime sales only increased 96 million yen a year and the Super anime alone costs at likely around 1 billion yen to make a year it's hard to argue that the anime in and of itself is making money. As stated if they can introduce new merchandise and characters minus the 1 billion yen cost, then yes they will.

Actually looking at the numbers again they LOST 4x as much in their theatrical anime releases as they gained in anime sales. So this makes even more sense why they would refocus on movies instead.

Oh shit..................
This would also explain why Kai wasn't sustainable even with the minimum effort. It doesn't look like Toei actually makes money on active on-going anime. At least in terms of anime sales. Of course you still have licensing etc, but based on on their overall numbers and the cost to produce anime in 2017 it doesn't appear it would be profitable. Who knows. Until we get a more thorough break down from Toei we won't know for sure but their is plenty to consider and it looks like their TV animation department revenue is relatively small compared with their overall revenues.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Professor Freeza » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:58 am

TheMikado wrote:
Professor Freeza wrote:
TheMikado wrote:
Again, the other non Super related products are producing crazy nuumbers. You can clearly see by Toei's own admission that the Super anime sales are not contributing to much growth because their entire anime sales only grew 96 million yen. And that includes all anime sales. Super is working as a marketing tool but if their entire anime sales only increased 96 million yen a year and the Super anime alone costs at likely around 1 billion yen to make a year it's hard to argue that the anime in and of itself is making money. As stated if they can introduce new merchandise and characters minus the 1 billion yen cost, then yes they will.

Actually looking at the numbers again they LOST 4x as much in their theatrical anime releases as they gained in anime sales. So this makes even more sense why they would refocus on movies instead.

Oh shit..................
This would also explain why Kai wasn't sustainable even with the minimum effort. It doesn't look like Toei actually makes money on active on-going anime. At least in terms of anime sales. Of course you still have licensing etc, but based on on their overall numbers and the cost to produce anime in 2017 it doesn't appear it would be profitable. Who knows. Until we get a more thorough break down from Toei we won't know for sure but their is plenty to consider and it looks like their TV animation department revenue is relatively small compared with their overall revenues.
But thats not keeping other shows from going on. Why specifically Super?

Keep in mind this Kitaro thing is a Vanity project. No one outside Japan other than animeheads like Ajay knows whats that. So they will not get any international deals from there.

I still find any reason for them to stop an Animation series from running after the film.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:04 pm

I think it has to do with finding a voice to succeed Hiromi Tsuru. They should take their time over a special casting for Bulma.

Although I also think Toei is also being corporate and pushing new shows forward.
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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Basaku » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:09 pm

TheMikado wrote:

Sure, I actually did some research and followed various links.
But you didn't check the actual reports, including the overseas film division mirroring the big spikes of 16/17. We've already seen how the "DB franchise" business operates raiding purely on the cocktails of game licenses or even Z nostalgia - it doesn't move much. Kai didn't help, neither did Heroes on its own etc. What is happening now is primarly due to presence of a new main weekly 'product', not the existance of various games.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by sangofe » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:12 pm

sintzu wrote:Regardless of what's replacing it or if it comes back later, why do you think they decided to stop it ? Was it to improve production ? was it to give Toriyama more time to write ? was it to avoid franchise saturation ? or is it something completely different ?
But we don't know if it's ending!

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Ki Breaker » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:14 pm

sangofe wrote:
sintzu wrote:Regardless of what's replacing it or if it comes back later, why do you think they decided to stop it ? Was it to improve production ? was it to give Toriyama more time to write ? was it to avoid franchise saturation ? or is it something completely different ?
But we don't know if it's ending!
We do, infact, know for a fact it's ending..
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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by rs_chaosmaster » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:18 pm

I don't know why but i have never been so frustrated at an anime ending announcement before. Super never reached its potential because it was always handcuffed by Z. All i wanted was a post Z story that gave Pan and Uub a chance to be a bad ass and erase the abysmal series that is GT. In addition I'm pissed that the planet Sadala arc will never happen. GFY Toei Animation!!

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by sangofe » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:22 pm

Professor Freeza wrote:
sintzu wrote:Geekdom101 said that Super's production staff (if not all then a good number of them) are moving on to work on the 20th movie so it makes sense to stop it for that reason as trying to do both will result in both not being up to expected quality.

BOG made 50 million while RF made 65 million so as long as it makes that or more then it'll probably be back in 2019.
In the old days they made movies why Z was still running. Why not make ToP run 1 month more, then start with a long Slice of life stuff? 4-5 months should be enough. It can be done by Toei Philippines and new artists, an on job audition of sorts, while the main guys finish the movie and come back after that for Super with a brand new arc
What made geekdom so special that he'd know more than anyone else?

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by RedHeat » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:23 pm

Probably to rebrand and build up hype.
Feels over Reals.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by BlueBasilisk » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:26 pm

I'm thinking the Tournament of Power was intended to be the conclusion of Super from conception and the new movie was planned because of that rather than Super ending because of the movie. I've noted it in a couple other threads but there are a lot of bookend elements with Battle of Gods here and it feels like an appropriate place to stop in a lot of respects. Super started with Goku fighting and failing to match up with Beerus, and now he and Vegeta are facing down the man stronger than the gods themselves. It brings that plot line to a head as well as everything Whis was trying to teach them from Resurrection F onwards. I think the other four Universes were left out so that the viewer is left with the feeling that there are still other challenges out there waiting for Goku and co. We just aren't going to see them (yet).

I don't really think there's any hidden motive here, just the story reaching a planned conclusion for now.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Professor Freeza » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:26 pm

sangofe wrote:
Professor Freeza wrote:
sintzu wrote:Geekdom101 said that Super's production staff (if not all then a good number of them) are moving on to work on the 20th movie so it makes sense to stop it for that reason as trying to do both will result in both not being up to expected quality.

BOG made 50 million while RF made 65 million so as long as it makes that or more then it'll probably be back in 2019.
In the old days they made movies why Z was still running. Why not make ToP run 1 month more, then start with a long Slice of life stuff? 4-5 months should be enough. It can be done by Toei Philippines and new artists, an on job audition of sorts, while the main guys finish the movie and come back after that for Super with a brand new arc
What made geekdom so special that he'd know more than anyone else?

The dude has made a lot of connections. He's become an egotistical maniac. Lets not bring him up here.

His "Sources" LMAO

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by sangofe » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:28 pm

Ki Breaker wrote:
sangofe wrote:
sintzu wrote:Regardless of what's replacing it or if it comes back later, why do you think they decided to stop it ? Was it to improve production ? was it to give Toriyama more time to write ? was it to avoid franchise saturation ? or is it something completely different ?
But we don't know if it's ending!
We do, infact, know for a fact it's ending..
No. We know that its time spot gets taken.
And we don't know for how long. We also know that Dragon Ball TV anime is most probably not over. NOTHING has been said about Super not continuing afterwards. We just don't know what will happen to super.
Last edited by sangofe on Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Bullza » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:30 pm

I have no idea, Super is the most popular anime in the world right now easily. Why they'd cancel that and replace it with some unknown series that nobody outside of Japan will watch baffles me.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by TheMikado » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:33 pm

Basaku wrote:
TheMikado wrote:

Sure, I actually did some research and followed various links.
But you didn't check the actual reports, including the overseas film division mirroring the big spikes of 16/17. We've already seen how the "DB franchise" business operates raiding purely on the cocktails of game licenses or even Z nostalgia - it doesn't move much. Kai didn't help, neither did Heroes on its own etc. What is happening now is primarly due to presence of a new main weekly 'product', not the existance of various games.
I did check the reports, I always give my analysis after each report release. And well there's a combination of several factors and it's never just "simple".

You need marketing and you need product.

Kai is a perfect example of why automakers do a refresh every few years. There's no incentive for customers to purchase new merchandise if it looks the same as the previous product.
At the same time if automakers changed their product every year it would cost money in production and they would never recoup the costs.

Toei tried to slap paint on an old model to move units and it didn't work. They created a frequent model change in the form of a weekly anime which consequentially costs money too. I used the Mustang example for a reason. It's a common tactic to get people in to look at a new model car. They may see sales increases but that does not mean 100% or even half of the increase is directly from that new model. In some cases car producers make a model solely for brand recognition to get customers in the door and buy other models.
It's no different in this case. Super is a marketing tool, an expensive one. It's profitability in and off itself is questionable, however it has helped the entire franchise and selling product which is not "Super" branded. There is not argument that it isn't a contributor. The question is is a weekly anime necessary to sell new product or will new movies with new forms be sufficient. As shown they had very few products to sell at all during their lowest points. When they had engaging product they were able to sell even without an anime.

The best of both worlds would be a cheap/inexpensive marketing tool with compelling product to sell. You can clearly see their profitability and operating costs are a concern from the report.
In the image production and sales business, sales increased by 7.2%, to 7,667 million yen, but operating profit decreased by 36.0% to 1.0 billion yen.
Further they talk about improving work schedules and environment to increase productivity:
■ Improve production environment and promote daytime work

 A high level of profit is likely to be invested in future business development, improvement of production environment and technology.
 Following "Corrective Cad" in cooperation with Amazon Prime in the project, the production of "Knights of the Zodiac (Tentative)" for Netflix is ​​proceeding. "Movie version Mazinger Z / INFINITY" will be published in Italy and France as a title for overseas.
 In the production system, rebuilding of Oizumi Studio was completed in August. Start full-scale operation from January 18. Improvement of production environment and improvement of productivity can be expected with the latest equipment.
 In addition to hardware, the reform of software aspect also advances. Promote shifts in daytime work in the animation industry, which is said to have a lot of nighttime work. In this, we aim to maintain and improve quality and productivity.
 The outcome of these investments is expected to be medium to long term rather than short-term. In recent years, however, the result of such efforts will depend on whether Toei animation which grows rapidly grows further.
Their financials are very clearly focused on profit maximization while reducing workloads and staffing costs. Just the theatrical drop in revenue is a huge hit and more than eclipses the revenue they are making in their TV animation growth. Again I do not know all the ins and outs but distilling everything down to "Super" is disingenuous, if Super branding were that revenue critical then it wouldn't make sense, however it appears they feel confidence that the "Super" brand itself is not the sole driver of revenue. Otherwise they would either continue or have something else immediately ready.

Whatever their balance sheets are telling them its that the on-going series "Super" is not necessary at this point to meet their financial goals. I've got no idea what data they are looking at, but what data they have released says that Super is a contributor, rather than sole driver of revenue.
Last edited by TheMikado on Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by Ki Breaker » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:33 pm

sangofe wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:
sangofe wrote:
But we don't know if it's ending!
We do, infact, know for a fact it's ending..
No. We know that its time spot gets taken.
And we don't know for how long. We also know that Dragon Ball tvy anime is most probably not over. NOTHING has been said about Super not continuing afterwards.
We know super will stop airing after March..
For now all the information we have is this [spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

This is all we know, from herms, summed up -

A) Super's current timeslot will definitely be taken by another show after March
B) At least one staff member says Super's ending then
C) Fuji TV apparently said this won't be the end for DB on TV, but future plans don't seem set in stone
D) No word about the manga.
Last edited by Ki Breaker on Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why do you think Super is ending ?

Post by sangofe » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:34 pm

Bullza wrote:I have no idea, Super is the most popular anime in the world right now easily. Why they'd cancel that and replace it with some unknown series that nobody outside of Japan will watch baffles me.
Actually I really like kitaro and will watch it. But that's besides the point. On a grand scale I agree with, except that we don't know if it's an actual ending or the story will pick up afterwards like a continuation.

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