Reasons why it was obvious 17 was going to outlast Gohan.

[buutenks]

Toppo is going to make 17 his punching bag, so i dont see how him outlasting Gohan is all that special. In universe reason for why he outlasted Gohan is because he was simply lucky.

[Lapislettuce]

Toppo is going to make 17 his punching bag, so i dont see how him outlasting Gohan is all that special. In universe reason for why he outlasted Gohan is because he was simply lucky.

Are you serious ? lol nope 17 ain't going to be "a punching bag" if Gohan went out with a bang then 17 who is more important than him in this arc will do even better i think it's time to accept the facts and stop being salty lol 17 will beat regular Toppo.

[buutenks]

Are you serious ? lol nope 17 ain't going to be "a punching bag" if Gohan went out with a bang then 17 who is more important than him in this arc will do even better i think it's time to accept the facts and stop being salty lol 17 will beat regular Toppo.

You really think 17 stands an inkling of a chance against GoD Toppo?

[Lapislettuce]

Are you serious ? lol nope 17 ain't going to be "a punching bag" if Gohan went out with a bang then 17 who is more important than him in this arc will do even better i think it's time to accept the facts and stop being salty lol 17 will beat regular Toppo.

You really think 17 stands an inkling of a chance against GoD Toppo?

Learn how to read. i said "regular" Toppo. not god Toppo. Vegeta will struggle against God Toppo aswell.

[buutenks]

Are you serious ? lol nope 17 ain't going to be "a punching bag" if Gohan went out with a bang then 17 who is more important than him in this arc will do even better i think it's time to accept the facts and stop being salty lol 17 will beat regular Toppo.

You really think 17 stands an inkling of a chance against GoD Toppo?

Learn how to read. i said "regular" Toppo. not god Toppo. Vegeta will struggle against God Toppo aswell.

So it means Toppo will use 17 as a punching bag. Since nep simply says Toppo will use his full power, not that he gets a power beyond his limits. Meaning the 'regular' Toppo, is simply Toppo being suppressed.

Also, even against regular Toppo, going by what is shown in the preview, 17 is getting pushed towards the edge, then Freeza uses his finger blasts to hit Toppo in the back.

[Lapislettuce]

You really think 17 stands an inkling of a chance against GoD Toppo?

Learn how to read. i said "regular" Toppo. not god Toppo. Vegeta will struggle against God Toppo aswell.

So it means Toppo will use 17 as a punching bag. Since nep simply says Toppo will use his full power, not that he gets a power beyond his limits. Meaning the 'regular' Toppo, is simply Toppo being suppressed.

Also, even against regular Toppo, going by what is shown in the preview, 17 is getting pushed towards the edge, then Freeza uses his finger blasts to hit Toppo in the back.

That's Toppo being pushed back. and what you're saying is DUMB AF again sounding very salty and mad that 17 is still in lol lemme guess he outlasted your favorite character and you feel sad about it ? deal with it. 17 is stated in the spoilers that he won against regular toppo with his attack then Toppo transforms. that's ALL. now you shall cut the bs.

[buutenks]

Learn how to read. i said "regular" Toppo. not god Toppo. Vegeta will struggle against God Toppo aswell.

So it means Toppo will use 17 as a punching bag. Since nep simply says Toppo will use his full power, not that he gets a power beyond his limits. Meaning the 'regular' Toppo, is simply Toppo being suppressed.

Also, even against regular Toppo, going by what is shown in the preview, 17 is getting pushed towards the edge, then Freeza uses his finger blasts to hit Toppo in the back.

That's Toppo being pushed back. and what you're saying is DUMB AF again sounding very salty and mad that 17 is still in lol lemme guess he outlasted your favorite character and you feel sad about it ? deal with it. 17 is stated in the spoilers that he won against regular toppo with his attack then Toppo transforms. that's ALL. now you shall cut the bs.

My favorite character? Erm that is buutenks lol. Why are you being so aggresive. Check the preview again, Toppo has red aura and red ki blasts, 17 has blue. Who is getting pushed towards the edge, someone with a blue aura and then Freeza attacks Toppo in the back while he is facing that big red blast. Now either Freeza is attacking Toppo from outside the arena or Toppo is the one pushing 17.

[Lapislettuce]

So it means Toppo will use 17 as a punching bag. Since nep simply says Toppo will use his full power, not that he gets a power beyond his limits. Meaning the 'regular' Toppo, is simply Toppo being suppressed.

Also, even against regular Toppo, going by what is shown in the preview, 17 is getting pushed towards the edge, then Freeza uses his finger blasts to hit Toppo in the back.

That's Toppo being pushed back. and what you're saying is DUMB AF again sounding very salty and mad that 17 is still in lol lemme guess he outlasted your favorite character and you feel sad about it ? deal with it. 17 is stated in the spoilers that he won against regular toppo with his attack then Toppo transforms. that's ALL. now you shall cut the bs.

My favorite character? Erm that is buutenks lol. Why are you being so aggresive. Check the preview again, Toppo has red aura and red ki blasts, 17 has blue. Who is getting pushed towards the edge, someone with a blue aura and then Freeza attacks Toppo in the back while he is facing that big red blast. Now either Freeza is attacking Toppo from outside the arena or Toppo is the one pushing 17.

Even if 17 gets eliminated now i'm happy with how far he got. also your whole comments are irrelevant to the topic i started. AGAIN spoilers confirm an attack led by 17 beats regular toppo then Toppo transforms.

[buutenks]

Even if 17 gets eliminated now i'm happy with how far he got. also your whole comments are irrelevant to the topic i started. AGAIN spoilers confirm an attack led by 17 beats regular toppo then Toppo transforms.

IDk about eliminating. But judging by the NEP, Freeza's sneak attack does most of the damage. As for summaries, yes i read them. Now why would 17 be eliminated? I wouldnt mind if he stayed till the end.

[Lapislettuce]

Even if 17 gets eliminated now i'm happy with how far he got. also your whole comments are irrelevant to the topic i started. AGAIN spoilers confirm an attack led by 17 beats regular toppo then Toppo transforms.

IDk about eliminating. But judging by the NEP, Freeza's sneak attack does most of the damage. As for summaries, yes i read them. Now why would 17 be eliminated? I wouldnt mind if he stayed till the end.

Your comments made it sound like you're against him and that were looking forward to him losing. sorry for any confusion.

[supercat]

Basing things off of a few brief scuffles, Android 17 definitely outperformed Gohan. Android 17 was able to tank a flurry of Justice Flash while even tangling with Toppo in hand to hand combat. Gohan, despite sneaking up on Toppo, was tossed aside like a common fodder, resulting in 17 having to practically save him. It's also pretty apparent that Gohan had already displayed his max power, while 17's has not yet been shown. Android 17 pushing back and blitzing through Aniraza's attack is also a pretty good indicator that he's at least on par with RoF SSB Goku / Vegeta on the low end, but could even be quite close to SSB Goku and Vegeta from the Universe 6 saga. Gohan doesn't have any such feats backing him up, so it's quite unlikely he merely outlasted 17 by luck.

Plus, whether 17 gets wrecked by Toppo or not isn't even as bad as it sounds, as he at least made it another day.

Any scene against a powerhouse like Toppo is better than sitting on the bleachers cheering the team on. That said, Gohan's team morale should have a place in said task, so I guess it worked out in the end.

Also, Buutenks... Yeah any form of Buu would be blinked away by Android 17 at this point, let alone Toppo. So 17 being on the losing end against such a powerhouse only further suggests that Buu really has no place among such contenders.

[buutenks]

Your comments made it sound like you're against him and that were looking forward to him losing. sorry for any confusion.

nah, i like 17. But based off the preview, regular Toppo seems to be pushing him towards the edge, not the way around. Plus i made the connection with the cloths thing with how in the exhibition match, Goku ripped a piece of Toppo's cloths with his warp kameha and Toppo got really pissed off and powered up. Now imagine if Freeza manages to shred his entire upper body cloths, lol. Toppo would go berserk. hence the Toppo will wreck 17 and Freeza quite brutally.

Basing things off of a few brief scuffles, Android 17 definitely outperformed Gohan. Android 17 was able to tank a flurry of Justice Flash while even tangling with Toppo in hand to hand combat. Gohan, despite sneaking up on Toppo, was tossed aside like a common fodder, resulting in 17 having to practically save him. It's also pretty apparent that Gohan had already displayed his max power, while 17's has not yet been shown. Android 17 pushing back and blitzing through Aniraza's attack is also a pretty good indicator that he's at least on par with RoF SSB Goku / Vegeta on the low end, but could even be quite close to SSB Goku and Vegeta from the Universe 6 saga. Gohan doesn't have any such feats backing him up, so it's quite likely he merely outlasted 17 by luck.

Plus, whether 17 gets wrecked by Toppo isn't even as bad as it sounds, as he at least made it another day.

Any scene against a powerhouse like Toppo is better than sitting on the bleachers cheering the team on. That said, Gohan's team morale should have a place in said task, so I guess it worked out in the end.

Also, Buutenks... Yeah any form of Buu would be blinked away by Android 17 at this point, let alone Toppo. So 17 being on the losing end against such a powerhouse only further suggests that Buu really has no place among such contenders.

Oh yes i know i know this. But i dont base my favorite characters on their PL. I base them on their moments. What i like about Buutenks is how he made Gohan pay for his arrogance, instead of Gohan finishing off Buu, he let Buu convince him to let Gotenks to fuse and continue their match. This is the same thing he did vs Cell, he got cocky and paid for it.

My second favorite char is Raditz. The way he dominated both Goku n Piccolo was just amazing, he simply won me over with that. Third is Future Trunks, it was pretty bad ass how he turned ssj and killed Freeza and King Cold. My 4th is Future androids 17/18, i like their brutality and how they were wrecking havoc. Present 17 n 18 were nice, but they didnt really much apart from 18 breaking Vegeta's arm and 17 fighting Piccolo. i would have wished if they had a bigger role tbh.

[supercat]

Basing things off of a few brief scuffles, Android 17 definitely outperformed Gohan. Android 17 was able to tank a flurry of Justice Flash while even tangling with Toppo in hand to hand combat. Gohan, despite sneaking up on Toppo, was tossed aside like a common fodder, resulting in 17 having to practically save him. It's also pretty apparent that Gohan had already displayed his max power, while 17's has not yet been shown. Android 17 pushing back and blitzing through Aniraza's attack is also a pretty good indicator that he's at least on par with RoF SSB Goku / Vegeta on the low end, but could even be quite close to SSB Goku and Vegeta from the Universe 6 saga. Gohan doesn't have any such feats backing him up, so it's quite likely he merely outlasted 17 by luck.

Plus, whether 17 gets wrecked by Toppo isn't even as bad as it sounds, as he at least made it another day.

Any scene against a powerhouse like Toppo is better than sitting on the bleachers cheering the team on. That said, Gohan's team morale should have a place in said task, so I guess it worked out in the end.

Also, Buutenks... Yeah any form of Buu would be blinked away by Android 17 at this point, let alone Toppo. So 17 being on the losing end against such a powerhouse only further suggests that Buu really has no place among such contenders.

Oh yes i know i know this. But i dont base my favorite characters on their PL. I base them on their moments. What i like about Buutenks is how he made Gohan pay for his arrogance, instead of Gohan finishing off Buu, he let Buu convince him to let Gotenks to fuse and continue their match. This is the same thing he did vs Cell, he got cocky and paid for it.

My second favorite char is Raditz. The way he dominated both Goku n Piccolo was just amazing, he simply won me over with that. Third is Future Trunks, it was pretty bad ass how he turned ssj and killed Freeza and King Cold. My 4th is Future androids 17/18, i like their brutality and how they were wrecking havoc. Present 17 n 18 were nice, but they didnt really much apart from 18 breaking Vegeta's arm and 17 fighting Piccolo. i would have wished if they had a bigger role tbh.

The way Gohan personifies arrogance is just flat-out ridiculous. He goes from this gentle, overly heroic tool that recites the same cheesy lines and antics over and over again to this careless know-it-all with no action behind his cockiness. To make matters worse, he completely breaks down the moment he realizes he messed up. So whiny and annoying to say the least.

I thought the future androids were pretty cool, but I feel nothing really compares to the awesome portrayal of current Android 17. It's beyond the fact that he's SSB-tier; it's his confidence and how he approaches each task with a real leader-like mentality. Despite lacking the typical hero demeanor that Gohan and to a lesser extent this sad excuse of what Piccolo's become likes to flaunt, it's pretty apparent that he cares for his team, particularly Goku (shown numerous times when he came to assist him). And it is this very absence of heroic antics that makes 17's endeavor to battle for his team that much more worthwhile.

It's expected of characters like Piccolo, Tien, and even Gohan to be all team-oriented since they're practically useless alone, but 17 helping out his comrades is quite unexpected; in a good way of course.

[CJStriker_CBR]

...you really like 17 THAT much, don't you?

Pretty Much Yea ~~~~~~~ Lapislettuce Does Likes 17 that much and it is Not really any different then many other fans around here that talk allot about their own favorites or on My Comic Book forum CBR how Passionate fans are of their favorite Comic Book Icons.

By "THAT much", I mean to the point where he or she takes this "I will fight you" attitude to anyone that speaks about 17 in a negative light (example: the original post). Hell, you like Ribranne a lot, but you do so without denigrating others who don't like her, which is ideally how things should be, you know?

While debates can always get Very Heated I still get that kind of passion for a character espically one you feel has not gotten the respect they deserved. It all depends on the debate, posters speak for themselves in how they want to address their support for a character, but their passion is IMO the True Importance of the post and the poster, it is the showing of a side of character that only true fans can truly portray. I choose to focus on that more then the grittiness of how the debate goes.

Also Indeed I do things myself differently cause of Various reasons but mostly that is just WHO I am and how want to get my Message about Brianne out their, but that is my way, but I am glad you like it.

However what I am saying is that, I really don't get into how gritty the debate may bet, I mostly want to focus on the Passion fans like Lapislettuce bring to the table and with that get into discussions about substance and moments on WHY they like a character like 17 so much and maybe fans can use these moments both the fan of the character and fans responding to that poster as a learning moment to teach and grow their own fandoms. The best advice I can give maybe since you are concerned about how debates go is to view this as a learning moment, not a debate or personal 1v1, but an opportunity to understand and ask why this character is so good to this fan. It is looking past what one may see as the grittiness of the debate and more towards what good be very good and unique substance Lapislettuce has to offer like any other fan has to offer.

[MKCSTEALTH]

The image that always sticks into my mind was the fight Gohan had against Goku, where he flys up to him as he went SSBKK. That to me was an analogy for Gohan striving to one day reach that plateau. I was hoping he'd achieve that in this tournament, and have a moment to shine where he'd show everyone the results of his training.

17 has just been the golden boy this arc. We're reintroduced to him having been training on his island, reaching the level of SSB Goku, and having several moments of triumph throughout this arc. I do see him getting tossed by or for the sake of eliminating Toppo in the next few episodes, but he really has been given the love.

[Nickolaidas]

No other character other than Goku had the moments #17 had. The moment with Anilaza was pure awesomesauce and there isn't a single character who delivered so much hype as #17 (again Goku [UI] excluded). Compare Vegeta's power-up with #17's MVP performance towards Anilaza. There's no competition. The writing team clearly likes the android and it shows.

Roshi comes a close second. He also had cool as fuck moments (Kamehameha vs Ganos, Mafuba vs Frost, small ki cracking Frost's vial) that were also phenomenal. Second best treatment after #17.

18 *had* a supposedly WOW scene against Ribrianne, but it's not very effective because the production did everything in their power to prevent us from taking Ribrianne seriously. She was constantly treated as a gag character and it made 18's moment kinda shallow.

Vegeta's WOW moment was also really lousily done. There's no real payoff in (just) punching Jiren since he's immediately (and literally) thrashed afterwards. His power up seems insignificant when you know about UI, and the fact that he shares the spotlight with Goku hampers his new 'form' even more. I hope he has a cool moment because his fans deserve better.

Gohan and Frieza both had many things to do, but they simply lack a WOW! moment that really knocks you off your seat. Frieza does many things on paper, but on screen he lacks #17/Roshi moments. Gohan will never have one, while Frieza has one last chance to give us an amazing moment when fighting Toppo. If he's out like Gohan in the next two episodes, he will also have an anticlimactic course in the ToP. Which makes you wonder what was the fucking point and why wasn't Boo in his stead. But, let's wait what will happen with Toppo.

Krillin is a mixed bag. His performance in the ToP is hampered by its short length, and he didn't have a WOW! moment other than the fact that he simply didn't suck. Also, the hype he generated in the recruitment episodes made his quick defeat all the more disappointing. Lots of wasted potential there.

Piccolo. Sigh ... what can I say here? Barring Tien, the worst performance in the ToP. However, he was also a character who generated almost zero hype, which is surprising, once you think that he used to be the second favourite character of Toriyama. It's like they don't know what to do with him. His WOW moment is muddy at best, non-existent at worse.

Tien. Dear Kami, Tien. What the hell, man? His recruitment episode made everyone question his inclusion in the ToP. He was humiliated, ridiculed, used as a punching bag and frankly I was surprised he wasn't knocked out in the first episode of the Tournament (or somehow before it would even begin). To think this was a guy who looked like a god in the 22nd Budokai, I would've preferred it if Goku was like "You know, Tien? You're not good enough. I'll have Frieza in your stead," and have both Boo and Frieza on the team.

So, to sum up, most of the cast had more or less quite a lot to do in the ToP, but only Goku, #17 and Roshi have made their fans truly,truly proud, imo.

So far.

[julianix]

Can someone point me in the direction of the Frieza wagon? I was mistaken and accidently walked into this one.

[Miracles]

I knew 17 would last near the end when TOEI stated that Toriyama said 17's potential is legit.

[TheDipDap1234]

18 *had* a supposedly WOW scene against Ribrianne, but it's not very effective because the production did everything in their power to prevent us from taking Ribrianne seriously. She was constantly treated as a gag character and it made 18's moment kinda shallow.

Eh, I have to disagree with you a little on that one. Ribrianne was one of the few new characters to get promoted in this arc, a magazine even listed her as someone we should "watch out for" along with Jiren and Kale, and Liquir (The God of Universe eight) praised her in episode 108 and said Universe 2 might win with Ribrianne in their team. It was a big win for 18 in my opinion. She defeated Universe 2's strongest and most memorable fighter quite easily. Before the episode aired, barely any people thought 18 will defeat Ribrianne. Almost everyone thought 18 will get eliminated for many reasons yet she still survived. As an 18 fan, I was satisfied with her performance in this arc. She eliminated a bunch of fighters, saved Goku, Krillin and 17, got more eliminations than Gohan, lasted longer than Piccolo, almost made it to the top 10 final fighters, outlasted all the other female characters, became stronger than ever before and had some nice interactions with her brother and the person she wanted to kill in the past. The only problem I had with her is that she had to get saved a little too many times by her teammates. It made her look like a damsel in distress and it was annoying.

[CJStriker_CBR]

18 *had* a supposedly WOW scene against Ribrianne, but it's not very effective because the production did everything in their power to prevent us from taking Ribrianne seriously. She was constantly treated as a gag character and it made 18's moment kinda shallow.

Eh, I have to disagree with you a little on that one. Ribrianne was one of the few new characters to get promoted in this arc, a magazine even listed her as someone we should "watch out for" along with Jiren and Kale, and Liquir (The God of Universe eight) praised her in episode 108 and said Universe 2 might win with Ribrianne in their team. It was a big win for 18 in my opinion. She defeated Universe 2's strongest and most memorable fighter quite easily. Before the episode aired, barely any people thought 18 will defeat Ribrianne. Almost everyone thought 18 will get eliminated for many reasons yet she still survived. As an 18 fan, I was satisfied with her performance in this arc. She eliminated a bunch of fighters, saved Goku, Krillin and 17, got more eliminations than Gohan, lasted longer than Piccolo, almost made it to the top 10 final fighters, outlasted all the other female characters, became stronger than ever before and had some nice interactions with her brother and the person she wanted to kill in the past. The only problem I had with her is that she had to get saved a little too many times by her teammates. It made her look like a damsel in distress and it was annoying.

A well Said Post TheDipDap1234, it was a Great Read.

Indeed Ribrianne was no soft-weight, she was one of the More Serious characters to not only be promoted in this Arc but have some of the more Interesting Development outside of U7 characters. I know she is not to everyone's tastes but No character is, that does not ever = to non-importance. What made the Win for 18 so Big was that many, Me too, where not expecting 18 to win cause of the relevant power differences that seem to be between the 2 ladies and then a New Form for Brianne that was tease to get and in a way she did. While I still thing Toei slept-ed on Ribrianne somewhat by the end of her last few showings and was to a degree a victim of Toei's power scaling mess in this arc, Ribriane STILL was a force to be known. It took 18 having her own Moment of Realization of what give her True Strength to call-upon a New Power that was, LIKE BRIANNE, based on the Power~of~Love!

In this case for her Family, 18 gained a whole new level Thanks to her confrontation with Ribrianne, being beneficial to 18's character for the long-run in both development and power. It also was Benifical for Brianne too, learning of a New Form of Love for her was a Great Discovery and what Many Fans I saw Respect about Brianne after 117 was that she took her Lose not only with Classy-Grace but as a moment to grow in those regards admiring 18 and Krillian's connection threw Love. THAT is character growth and shows that while 18 or Brianne are not on the Crazy levels of Power like Goku, Vegeta and Jiren are, they are on a Nice level of personal growth, depth and strength of their own levels of crazy powerful!

Indeed I was not happy to see Brianne Go, I was sad and missed her greatly, but 18 with 17 along with her go a Clean win and in the long-run I feel after reviewing it over sometime that for the long-run it was beneficial to both ladies. Ever character IS-important to someone and I am glad for you TheDipDap1234 as a fan of 18 she go to shine in the way you where hoping and at the same time you saw Ribrianne as well as a powerful yet worthy fighter that was BIG for 18 to win over.

Like I have said before about that fight, my other main hope is that Many see Ribrianne/Brianne was a major part of 18's growth and threw the philosophy of love it helped 18 gain a new power base on love as well. That fan's found a respect in those moment for Ribrianne for being apart of that for the challenge she put up, for her beliefs and most of all for her classy character reaction to her lose to take it as a learning moment.

Also episode 118 took this and Road with it to Level 11 and showed the True Nature of Universe 2 and Brianne's importance to her Universe.

Brianne is the GODDESS and Champion of their people, a Star on a Known level threw-out her Whole Universe we never really seen before in Dragon Ball. My only = to it is IMO Superman from DC Comics, but I am sure their are other examples too. Brianne is way powerful, just like any heroe, but like any hero one eventually meets others that are stronger and in Hopes My Brianne in the future will become stronger as well.

Before I ramble on anymore, my point is with all of this is the Brianne WAS and Still IS an Important Character with great openings for character growth and interaction. I fell both 17 and 18 developed a connection to Brianne and U2 and it gives me hope and ideas cause they are all Heroes in the end that in future DB shows Toei will ride with that and place them together for character growth, development and funny hijacks with each other, U2, 17, 18 and the Krillian Family!