Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

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Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:47 pm

Maybe I'm rushing things a little, but I wanted to know that.

If in episode 126, Vegeta is eliminated, then what do you guys expect from him on this EP? What kind of standout does he need on this EP 126 for his elimination to be worth it? After all, if that happened, it would be his last battle in DBS

And if he is eliminated on EP 126, what would you think of his participation in this tournament? Was it relevant or did it have a decent prominence?

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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by Black Hawk » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:10 pm

Given the title includes "Vegeta's Life-Risking Blow/Attack/etc.", I can't help but have this mental image of Vegeta physically tackling Top off the stage or taking him down with him. If you're familiar with Smash Brothers, it's kind of like Kirby's side throws, in which he can grab the opponent and dive offstage with him/her. Or maybe something like the way King Piccolo was defeated, minus blowing a hole in his stomach, but with both parties flying off the stage.

In terms of satisfaction, I feel very perplexed about Vegeta's character in this arc. I want to root for him, but I just can't; if he loses his standing in the tournament in Episode 126, I'm actually worried that I'll be glad. His character development was amazing in the Zero Mortals Plan story, but his story was so completely lacking during the Tournament of Power to me. He initially refuses to join the tournament because he's waiting for his child to be born, and then his child is born with help from Whis, and then that's it; that was his entire story arc.

What really irked me was how he pulled an unexplained transformation out of nowhere with one of the crappiest motivations I've seen in the entire series. He wasn't thinking about his daughter who'd literally just been born, nor his son whose future counterpart nearly died to afford his escape in the previous story arc, nor his wife whose future counterpart died wishing she could see him one last time; he was thinking about some guy from another universe he barely knew simply because he was a Saiyajin. It completely took the character development he went through in the previous arc, set it on fire, threw it in a dumpster, and then set the dumpster on fire.

Don't get me wrong; I like Cabba. Vegeta breaking through his limits and obtaining a new transformation, neither of which were previously alluded to nor foreshadowed nor built up nor seemingly relevant in any way for such a ridiculous motive completely killed off any hype I had for Vegeta. Plus, what can this new form to do Jiren when Jiren isn't even using that much of his power? If Jiren powers up and mops the floor with Vegeta, Super Saiyajin Royal Blue will have been completely pointless.

I want to cheer for Vegeta, but I feel like he's been handled so terribly during this arc, minus the impressive feats he's exhibited in battle; that's the only thing I liked about Vegeta throughout this entire story arc.
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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by ToshioWrites » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:22 pm

If Vegeta beats Toppo in 126 and then falls off I will be satisfied with that. Anything else is gravy

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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by Xeogran » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:51 pm

Indeed, especially the moment when Frost mafuba'd him :twisted:

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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by Torturephile » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:16 pm

Black Hawk wrote:[spoiler]Given the title includes "Vegeta's Life-Risking Blow/Attack/etc.", I can't help but have this mental image of Vegeta physically tackling Top off the stage or taking him down with him. If you're familiar with Smash Brothers, it's kind of like Kirby's side throws, in which he can grab the opponent and dive offstage with him/her. Or maybe something like the way King Piccolo was defeated, minus blowing a hole in his stomach, but with both parties flying off the stage.

In terms of satisfaction, I feel very perplexed about Vegeta's character in this arc. I want to root for him, but I just can't; if he loses his standing in the tournament in Episode 126, I'm actually worried that I'll be glad. His character development was amazing in the Zero Mortals Plan story, but his story was so completely lacking during the Tournament of Power to me. He initially refuses to join the tournament because he's waiting for his child to be born, and then his child is born with help from Whis, and then that's it; that was his entire story arc.

What really irked me was how he pulled an unexplained transformation out of nowhere with one of the crappiest motivations I've seen in the entire series. He wasn't thinking about his daughter who'd literally just been born, nor his son whose future counterpart nearly died to afford his escape in the previous story arc, nor his wife whose future counterpart died wishing she could see him one last time; he was thinking about some guy from another universe he barely knew simply because he was a Saiyajin. It completely took the character development he went through in the previous arc, set it on fire, threw it in a dumpster, and then set the dumpster on fire.

Don't get me wrong; I like Cabba. Vegeta breaking through his limits and obtaining a new transformation, neither of which were previously alluded to nor foreshadowed nor built up nor seemingly relevant in any way for such a ridiculous motive completely killed off any hype I had for Vegeta. Plus, what can this new form to do Jiren when Jiren isn't even using that much of his power? If Jiren powers up and mops the floor with Vegeta, Super Saiyajin Royal Blue will have been completely pointless.

I want to cheer for Vegeta, but I feel like he's been handled so terribly during this arc, minus the impressive feats he's exhibited in battle; that's the only thing I liked about Vegeta throughout this entire story arc.[/spoiler]
You described how I feel about Vegeta, puzzled. I've been rewatching parts of the future saga, and the Vegeta presented there is much different that what we've seen for the most part on this tournament. It became harder to root for him during the ToP after how cocky he's gotten, specially after his fugly transformation and weak lead-up for it. Even Future Trunks' super saiyan rage at least was fueled by legit reasons despite possibly being a bigger asspull. Most of his fights weren't much to write home about despite his number of victories against his opponents, not even his fight against Jiren. The only one I really liked is when he fought together with Roshi against Frost and Magetta. But he's the same man that I enjoyed throughout Super up to the start of the ToP, I want to like the character again.

That's why, up to this point, I don't feel satisfied with Vegeta's participation. He is still not as bad as Krillin and specially Tenshinhan.

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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by Akyon » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:50 pm

Like the others I've had some issues with Vegeta's attitude this arc, but this really does seem to be a marmite situation as you either like Zamasu arc Vegeta or hated him. I noticed fans seem to be split; if you liked cocky asshole Vegeta, you'll have adored him for most this arc, but if you liked the more mature progression of his character he's going to feel like a step back.

Vegeta's done very well this tournament elimination wise, so honestly I don't care how he gets taken out. He doesn't really need to do jack to have it be worth it at this point. This isn't like Piccolo, Krillin, Tien or Gohan who have questionable impressive success before being knocked out; Vegeta's gone above and beyond what he should have from a narrative point of view.
I expect he'll be given a decent finale, probably taking Toppo down and allowing Goku(and maybe Frieza but iunno) to take on Jiren in the final showdown as we've all known it would become.

I'm not really much of a Saiyan fan in general, but I have to say I wish Vegeta had been given more build up for this arc. Narratively this ToP has been a mess with characters who got focus episodes hinting at their plans and abilities achieving nothing whilst Vegeta gets no build up and frankly performs the best he's ever done. Just from a writing perspective it's skewed. Why not have given Vegeta some build up for coming up with a way to go beyond Blue for example?
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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:05 pm

Torturephile wrote:
Black Hawk wrote:[spoiler]Given the title includes "Vegeta's Life-Risking Blow/Attack/etc.", I can't help but have this mental image of Vegeta physically tackling Top off the stage or taking him down with him. If you're familiar with Smash Brothers, it's kind of like Kirby's side throws, in which he can grab the opponent and dive offstage with him/her. Or maybe something like the way King Piccolo was defeated, minus blowing a hole in his stomach, but with both parties flying off the stage.

In terms of satisfaction, I feel very perplexed about Vegeta's character in this arc. I want to root for him, but I just can't; if he loses his standing in the tournament in Episode 126, I'm actually worried that I'll be glad. His character development was amazing in the Zero Mortals Plan story, but his story was so completely lacking during the Tournament of Power to me. He initially refuses to join the tournament because he's waiting for his child to be born, and then his child is born with help from Whis, and then that's it; that was his entire story arc.

What really irked me was how he pulled an unexplained transformation out of nowhere with one of the crappiest motivations I've seen in the entire series. He wasn't thinking about his daughter who'd literally just been born, nor his son whose future counterpart nearly died to afford his escape in the previous story arc, nor his wife whose future counterpart died wishing she could see him one last time; he was thinking about some guy from another universe he barely knew simply because he was a Saiyajin. It completely took the character development he went through in the previous arc, set it on fire, threw it in a dumpster, and then set the dumpster on fire.

Don't get me wrong; I like Cabba. Vegeta breaking through his limits and obtaining a new transformation, neither of which were previously alluded to nor foreshadowed nor built up nor seemingly relevant in any way for such a ridiculous motive completely killed off any hype I had for Vegeta. Plus, what can this new form to do Jiren when Jiren isn't even using that much of his power? If Jiren powers up and mops the floor with Vegeta, Super Saiyajin Royal Blue will have been completely pointless.

I want to cheer for Vegeta, but I feel like he's been handled so terribly during this arc, minus the impressive feats he's exhibited in battle; that's the only thing I liked about Vegeta throughout this entire story arc.[/spoiler]
You described how I feel about Vegeta, puzzled. I've been rewatching parts of the future saga, and the Vegeta presented there is much different that what we've seen for the most part on this tournament. It became harder to root for him during the ToP after how cocky he's gotten, specially after his fugly transformation and weak lead-up for it. Even Future Trunks' super saiyan rage at least was fueled by legit reasons despite possibly being a bigger asspull. Most of his fights weren't much to write home about despite his number of victories against his opponents, not even his fight against Jiren. The only one I really liked is when he fought together with Roshi against Frost and Magetta. But he's the same man that I enjoyed throughout Super up to the start of the ToP, I want to like the character again.

That's why, up to this point, I don't feel satisfied with Vegeta's participation. He is still not as bad as Krillin and specially Tenshinhan.
So, is this related to Vegeta's attitudes during the tournament or his performance in battles? And how could his performance on EP 126 compensate for that?
Black Hawk wrote:Given the title includes "Vegeta's Life-Risking Blow/Attack/etc.", I can't help but have this mental image of Vegeta physically tackling Top off the stage or taking him down with him. If you're familiar with Smash Brothers, it's kind of like Kirby's side throws, in which he can grab the opponent and dive offstage with him/her. Or maybe something like the way King Piccolo was defeated, minus blowing a hole in his stomach, but with both parties flying off the stage.

In terms of satisfaction, I feel very perplexed about Vegeta's character in this arc. I want to root for him, but I just can't; if he loses his standing in the tournament in Episode 126, I'm actually worried that I'll be glad. His character development was amazing in the Zero Mortals Plan story, but his story was so completely lacking during the Tournament of Power to me. He initially refuses to join the tournament because he's waiting for his child to be born, and then his child is born with help from Whis, and then that's it; that was his entire story arc.

What really irked me was how he pulled an unexplained transformation out of nowhere with one of the crappiest motivations I've seen in the entire series. He wasn't thinking about his daughter who'd literally just been born, nor his son whose future counterpart nearly died to afford his escape in the previous story arc, nor his wife whose future counterpart died wishing she could see him one last time; he was thinking about some guy from another universe he barely knew simply because he was a Saiyajin. It completely took the character development he went through in the previous arc, set it on fire, threw it in a dumpster, and then set the dumpster on fire.

Don't get me wrong; I like Cabba. Vegeta breaking through his limits and obtaining a new transformation, neither of which were previously alluded to nor foreshadowed nor built up nor seemingly relevant in any way for such a ridiculous motive completely killed off any hype I had for Vegeta. Plus, what can this new form to do Jiren when Jiren isn't even using that much of his power? If Jiren powers up and mops the floor with Vegeta, Super Saiyajin Royal Blue will have been completely pointless.

I want to cheer for Vegeta, but I feel like he's been handled so terribly during this arc, minus the impressive feats he's exhibited in battle; that's the only thing I liked about Vegeta throughout this entire story arc.
Well, it looks like Toppo will now get a big power up.

And apparently neither Frieza nor 17 will be able to handle it.
Vegeta's new form could be specifically for him to be able to rival Toppo (besides pressing Jiren now), something no one in the arena can do (apart from Goku). So in that case, this new transformation would have a purpose.
And perhaps it could go even further, since the title talks about ''surpass even a God''

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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by Black Hawk » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:28 pm

Torturephile wrote:You described how I feel about Vegeta, puzzled. I've been rewatching parts of the future saga, and the Vegeta presented there is much different that what we've seen for the most part on this tournament. It became harder to root for him during the ToP after how cocky he's gotten, specially after his fugly transformation and weak lead-up for it. Even Future Trunks' super saiyan rage at least was fueled by legit reasons despite possibly being a bigger asspull. Most of his fights weren't much to write home about despite his number of victories against his opponents, not even his fight against Jiren. The only one I really liked is when he fought together with Roshi against Frost and Magetta. But he's the same man that I enjoyed throughout Super up to the start of the ToP, I want to like the character again.

That's why, up to this point, I don't feel satisfied with Vegeta's participation. He is still not as bad as Krillin and specially Tenshinhan.
I agree wholeheartedly. To be honest, I feel like the Zero Mortals Plan story would have been a much more sensible time for Vegeta to receive his power-up, regardless of how strange (and unexplained thus far) it may be (though back then would have also been a much more sensible time to catch Vegeta up with Gokū's Kaiōken x10); perhaps, whereas Trunks received Super Saiyajin Hatred/Anger/Rage/Ikari/Blue-but-not-Blue out of anger that he was being blamed for all that had happened and out of helplessness at how he couldn't help fight against Zamas and Black, Vegeta could have received Super Saiyajin Royal Blue out of anger at not being able to match up with even a "fake" Kakarotto and out of Black and Zamas promising to wipe out Vegeta's family in his own timeline or something along those lines. In the Tournament of Power story, barring fighting for his family (instead of Cabba), I can't think of any scenario or reason for Vegeta to deserve receiving Super Saiyajin Royal Blue, particularly when fighting for family is much more Gohan's thing than it is Vegeta's (who simply wants to be the best and the strongest and the winner because I am the prince of all eight Saiyajin).

If Vegeta had brought in his character development from the Zero Mortals Plan story, along with Super Saiyajin Royal Blue obtained from that story, I would have a much easier time rooting for him and actually wanting to see him win. Since he didn't do either of those, I find myself unsure of how to feel about Vegeta in the tournament and even whether I want him to get eliminated or not.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Well, it looks like Toppo will now get a big power up.

And apparently neither Frieza nor 17 will be able to handle it.
Vegeta's new form could be specifically for him to be able to rival Toppo (besides pressing Jiren now), something no one in the arena can do (apart from Goku). So in that case, this new transformation would have a purpose.
And perhaps it could go even further, since the title talks about ''surpass even a God''
I'm kind of torn on the idea of Vegeta, with his (undeserved) new form, taking on destroyer deity Top. I feel like it wouldn't make much sense for his form to be strong enough to actually handle a destroyer deity; SSJ Royal Blue has only been shown to be comparable to SSJ Blue Kaiōken x10 or x20 (depending on what Gokū is using against Jiren). We know that, even with the Kaiōken, Gokū can't match Beerus (which likely means he also can't match up to a destroyer deity in general). Maybe that's where the life-risking blow comes in; still, from a power-scaling perspective, it wouldn't make much sense to me for SSJ Royal Blue Vegeta to be able to take out destroyer deity Top.

I honestly thought that was going to be Gohan-kun's role; with the teased "new ultimate form no one has ever seen before," I was under the impression that it would come down to Gokū and Vegeta taking on Jiren while Gohan (and possibly Freeza) dealt with Top. Top becoming a destroyer deity too powerful for even Gokū and Vegeta with their present forms (before SSJ Royal Blue was introduced, at least) to defeat, meaning they now had two incredibly powerful opponents to deal with, making the situation look hopeless. No. 17 and Freeza have never been hinted to have some kind of super power-up in the woodworks, which left Gohan-kun's teased power-up to deal with Top while Gokū and Vegeta dealt with Jiren, bringing the tournament closer to its climactic conclusion with Universe Seven's absolute best vs. Universe Eleven's absolute best. With Gohan-kun out, though, unless Vegeta somehow manages to go Super Saiyajin Even More Royal And Equal To A Destroyer Blue, I don't see how anyone will be able to defeat Top, much less Jiren. I have the feeling Universe Seven will lose; that doesn't necessarily mean that Universe Eleven will win, though.
Last edited by Black Hawk on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by Kaiosama » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:34 pm

It better be satisfactory for Vegeta fans. He's going to be equal to or beyond GoD level by the end of the arc (just like Goku, but Goku will still be stronger because of UI). I don't see any other character getting this type of shine expect maybe Frieza. He should go out defeating Toppo and then Frieza can break his limits and help Goku against Jiren.

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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:53 pm

Black Hawk wrote:
Torturephile wrote:You described how I feel about Vegeta, puzzled. I've been rewatching parts of the future saga, and the Vegeta presented there is much different that what we've seen for the most part on this tournament. It became harder to root for him during the ToP after how cocky he's gotten, specially after his fugly transformation and weak lead-up for it. Even Future Trunks' super saiyan rage at least was fueled by legit reasons despite possibly being a bigger asspull. Most of his fights weren't much to write home about despite his number of victories against his opponents, not even his fight against Jiren. The only one I really liked is when he fought together with Roshi against Frost and Magetta. But he's the same man that I enjoyed throughout Super up to the start of the ToP, I want to like the character again.

That's why, up to this point, I don't feel satisfied with Vegeta's participation. He is still not as bad as Krillin and specially Tenshinhan.
I agree wholeheartedly. To be honest, I feel like the Zero Mortals Plan story would have been a much more sensible time for Vegeta to receive his power-up, regardless of how strange (and unexplained thus far) it may be (though back then would have also been a much more sensible time to catch Vegeta up with Gokū's Kaiōken x10); perhaps, whereas Trunks received Super Saiyajin Hatred/Anger/Rage/Ikari/Blue-but-not-Blue out of anger that he was being blamed for all that had happened and out of helplessness at how he couldn't help fight against Zamas and Black, Vegeta could have received Super Saiyajin Royal Blue out of anger at not being able to match up with even a "fake" Kakarotto and out of Black and Zamas promising to wipe out Vegeta's family in his own timeline or something along those lines. In the Tournament of Power story, barring fighting for his family (instead of Cabba), I can't think of any scenario or reason for Vegeta to deserve receiving Super Saiyajin Royal Blue, particularly when fighting for family is much more Gohan's thing than it is Vegeta's (who simply wants to be the best and the strongest and the winner because I am the prince of all eight Saiyajin).

If Vegeta had brought in his character development from the Zero Mortals Plan story, along with Super Saiyajin Royal Blue obtained from that story, I would have a much easier time rooting for him and actually wanting to see him win. Since he didn't do either of those, I find myself unsure of how to feel about Vegeta in the tournament and even whether I want him to get eliminated or not.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Well, it looks like Toppo will now get a big power up.

And apparently neither Frieza nor 17 will be able to handle it.
Vegeta's new form could be specifically for him to be able to rival Toppo (besides pressing Jiren now), something no one in the arena can do (apart from Goku). So in that case, this new transformation would have a purpose.
And perhaps it could go even further, since the title talks about ''surpass even a God''
I'm kind of torn on the idea of Vegeta, with his (undeserved) new form, taking on destroyer deity Top. I feel like it wouldn't make much sense for his form to be strong enough to actually handle a destroyer deity; SSJ Royal Blue has only been shown to be comparable to SSJ Blue Kaiōken x10 or x20 (depending on what Gokū is using against Jiren). We know that, even with the Kaiōken, Gokū can't match Beerus (which likely means he also can't match up to a destroyer deity in general). Maybe that's where the life-risking blow comes in; still, from a power-scaling perspective, it wouldn't make much sense to me for SSJ Royal Blue Vegeta to be able to take out destroyer deity Top.

I honestly thought that was going to be Gohan-kun's role; with the teased "new ultimate form no one has ever seen before," I was under the impression that it would come down to Gokū and Vegeta taking on Jiren while Gohan (and possibly Freeza) dealt with Top. Top becoming a destroyer deity too powerful for even Gokū and Vegeta with their present forms (before SSJ Royal Blue was introduced, at least) to defeat, meaning they now had two incredibly powerful opponents to deal with, making the situation look hopeless. No. 17 and Freeza have never been hinted to have some kind of super power-up in the woodworks, which left Gohan-kun's teased power-up to deal with Top while Gokū and Vegeta dealt with Jiren, bringing the tournament closer to its climactic conclusion with Universe Seven's absolute best vs. Universe Eleven's absolute best. With Gohan-kun out, though, unless Vegeta somehow manages to go Super Saiyajin Even More Royal And Equal To A Destroyer Blue, I don't see how anyone will be able to defeat Top, much less Jiren. I have the feeling Universe Seven will lose; that doesn't necessarily mean that Universe Eleven will win, though.
So that's why I believe that on EP 126, Vegeta will get a power up (after all, if the title is ''surpass even a God'', then this is a level he has not yet surpassed). Or his new transformation is actually a lot more powerful than we think, since he is on par with Goku SSB KK x20 (according to Beerus, Goku is using all the power he has), and the current Goku is much stronger than that the Goku of EP 109 (which was defeated by an even more suppressed Jiren in the blink of an eye)

I hoped that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan would be the 3 finalists of the tournament. It would be cliché, but interesting. In that case, Gohan would really have to get something new to be able to continue in the fight.

But if Toppo will get a big power up, then Freeza and 17 will not take care of them. And that's why Vegeta with his new transformation will have to stop it.
That's why I believe they will face each other.
Kaiosama wrote:It better be satisfactory for Vegeta fans. He's going to be equal to or beyond GoD level by the end of the arc (just like Goku, but Goku will still be stronger because of UI). I don't see any other character getting this type of shine expect maybe Frieza. He should go out defeating Toppo and then Frieza can break his limits and help Goku against Jiren.
Honestly, I would be totally satisfied if in the end, Vegeta overcame the power of a GoD (in this case, Toppo himself), since that is his goal since he met Beerus.
No matter if he's still inferior to Goku and Jiren, getting a power up at that level would be something awesome

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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by Black Hawk » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:01 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:So that's why I believe that on EP 126, Vegeta will get a power up (after all, if the title is ''surpass even a God'', then this is a level he has not yet surpassed). Or his new transformation is actually a lot more powerful than we think, since he is on par with Goku SSB KK x20 (according to Beerus, Goku is using all the power he has), and the current Goku is much stronger than that the Goku of EP 109 (which was defeated by an even more suppressed Jiren in the blink of an eye)

I hoped that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan would be the 3 finalists of the tournament. It would be cliché, but interesting. In that case, Gohan would really have to get something new to be able to continue in the fight.

But if Toppo will get a big power up, then Freeza and 17 will not take care of them. And that's why Vegeta with his new transformation will have to stop it.
That's why I believe they will face each other.
That would make sense; the only way I see Vegeta being able to take on destroyer deity Top is to get yet another power-up. I just wish he deserved it; I feel like he didn't deserve SSJ Royal Blue in this arc, much less another form on top of that. Maybe he'll reach Ultra Instinct Omen to take out Top; that would at least make sense with what he's been trying to achieve ever since Whis hinted at it back in Revival of F.

I'd have liked it much better if he'd received SSJ Royal Blue during the Zero Mortals Plan and then Ultra Instinct Omen (or whatever else episode 126 might show us) in...well, episode 126.

I agree with No. 17 and Golden Freeza won't be able to handle destroyer deity Top; I still have a hard time believing they can handle regular Top as it is.
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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by Torturephile » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:30 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Torturephile wrote:
Black Hawk wrote:[spoiler]Given the title includes "Vegeta's Life-Risking Blow/Attack/etc.", I can't help but have this mental image of Vegeta physically tackling Top off the stage or taking him down with him. If you're familiar with Smash Brothers, it's kind of like Kirby's side throws, in which he can grab the opponent and dive offstage with him/her. Or maybe something like the way King Piccolo was defeated, minus blowing a hole in his stomach, but with both parties flying off the stage.

In terms of satisfaction, I feel very perplexed about Vegeta's character in this arc. I want to root for him, but I just can't; if he loses his standing in the tournament in Episode 126, I'm actually worried that I'll be glad. His character development was amazing in the Zero Mortals Plan story, but his story was so completely lacking during the Tournament of Power to me. He initially refuses to join the tournament because he's waiting for his child to be born, and then his child is born with help from Whis, and then that's it; that was his entire story arc.

What really irked me was how he pulled an unexplained transformation out of nowhere with one of the crappiest motivations I've seen in the entire series. He wasn't thinking about his daughter who'd literally just been born, nor his son whose future counterpart nearly died to afford his escape in the previous story arc, nor his wife whose future counterpart died wishing she could see him one last time; he was thinking about some guy from another universe he barely knew simply because he was a Saiyajin. It completely took the character development he went through in the previous arc, set it on fire, threw it in a dumpster, and then set the dumpster on fire.

Don't get me wrong; I like Cabba. Vegeta breaking through his limits and obtaining a new transformation, neither of which were previously alluded to nor foreshadowed nor built up nor seemingly relevant in any way for such a ridiculous motive completely killed off any hype I had for Vegeta. Plus, what can this new form to do Jiren when Jiren isn't even using that much of his power? If Jiren powers up and mops the floor with Vegeta, Super Saiyajin Royal Blue will have been completely pointless.

I want to cheer for Vegeta, but I feel like he's been handled so terribly during this arc, minus the impressive feats he's exhibited in battle; that's the only thing I liked about Vegeta throughout this entire story arc.[/spoiler]
You described how I feel about Vegeta, puzzled. I've been rewatching parts of the future saga, and the Vegeta presented there is much different that what we've seen for the most part on this tournament. It became harder to root for him during the ToP after how cocky he's gotten, specially after his fugly transformation and weak lead-up for it. Even Future Trunks' super saiyan rage at least was fueled by legit reasons despite possibly being a bigger asspull. Most of his fights weren't much to write home about despite his number of victories against his opponents, not even his fight against Jiren. The only one I really liked is when he fought together with Roshi against Frost and Magetta. But he's the same man that I enjoyed throughout Super up to the start of the ToP, I want to like the character again.

That's why, up to this point, I don't feel satisfied with Vegeta's participation. He is still not as bad as Krillin and specially Tenshinhan.
So, is this related to Vegeta's attitudes during the tournament or his performance in battles? And how could his performance on EP 126 compensate for that?
Yes to both. I'm not expecting much from him in episode 126 since I didn't find episode 122, despite its gorgeous art, to be anything remotely special, but rather predictable, and didn't move the plot forward by much. I haven't been given a reason to care much about the character, his motivation is odd despite he has something much more important to fight for, he has shown signs of my least favorite incarnation of his (Cell saga), and his showing in battle wasn't all that fantastic, having on and off battles that went nowhere like his fights with Toppo and Ribrianne, and only eliminated by himself weaker U9 fighters, an emotionally wounded Magetta, and Prum and Dr. Rota, who were not even fighting him. Anything goes at this point, I suppose.

I'm more satisfied with Gohan despite I don't care much about him either.

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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:08 pm

I think what people don't realise is when it comes to pure fighting especially in the format of a tournament Saiyans become their "unhinged selves" Vegeta is showing more of his pride and arragonce attitude meanwhile Goku is showing is more "this is fun" attitude. And like Vegeta said to Jiren being arrogant is what drives him and thus showshe is self aware of it as we seen in his kind hearted moments ie with Roshi and Cabba. In the Trunks arc he was useless as his arrogance wasn't there pushing him. It's completely different to Cell arc where Vegeta was an arrogant dick unawarely 24/7 I mean he pushed past his limits not for himself but for someone else here.

Ronolda and Messi are like Goku and Vegeta, different playing styles. Ronaldo's arrogant attitude is how he got to where he was and it's what drives him just like Vegeta.

Then there is the misinterpreted "development" in the Buu arc where people think Vegeta admitting Goku is the best suddenly means his goals to pass Goku doesn't exist anymore. Like no, it just means Vegeta finally has a clear head.

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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by sintzu » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:36 pm

His new form and fights against Jiren were good and overall he has done a decent job throughout the tournament but that's not enough for the story's 2nd main character so going out with anything less than taking down Toppo will be a major let down.
Kaiosama wrote:Vegeta should go out defeating Toppo and then Frieza can break his limits and help Goku against Jiren.
That'd be a very good way to end things as both Vegeta and Freeza will get the time and quality that fits their roles and power.
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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by Chuquita » Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:57 pm

Vegeta's been all over the place, writing-wise this arc. (@_@) Some weeks he's too mature, some weeks he's too arrogant, some weeks it feels like why is he even here at all? It's so weird. And I still think his infant daughter is a better motivation for a new power-up than Cabba is.

I'm not satisfied, but with only 7 weeks to go I've reached the stage of acceptance with how back-and-forth Vegeta's character is this arc depending on who happens to be writing or directing that week. Maybe if/when Super returns Vegeta'll be back to having some kind of stability about his personality.
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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by Miracles » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:00 am

In my eyes, Vegeta didn't really have his moment yet. He has been pretty much on fodder control and his fight with Toppo was off-screened. Jiren was nothing more than for growth.

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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by BWri » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:38 am

Black Hawk wrote:Given the title includes "Vegeta's Life-Risking Blow/Attack/etc.", I can't help but have this mental image of Vegeta physically tackling Top off the stage or taking him down with him. If you're familiar with Smash Brothers, it's kind of like Kirby's side throws, in which he can grab the opponent and dive offstage with him/her. Or maybe something like the way King Piccolo was defeated, minus blowing a hole in his stomach, but with both parties flying off the stage.

In terms of satisfaction, I feel very perplexed about Vegeta's character in this arc. I want to root for him, but I just can't; if he loses his standing in the tournament in Episode 126, I'm actually worried that I'll be glad. His character development was amazing in the Zero Mortals Plan story, but his story was so completely lacking during the Tournament of Power to me. He initially refuses to join the tournament because he's waiting for his child to be born, and then his child is born with help from Whis, and then that's it; that was his entire story arc.

What really irked me was how he pulled an unexplained transformation out of nowhere with one of the crappiest motivations I've seen in the entire series. He wasn't thinking about his daughter who'd literally just been born, nor his son whose future counterpart nearly died to afford his escape in the previous story arc, nor his wife whose future counterpart died wishing she could see him one last time; he was thinking about some guy from another universe he barely knew simply because he was a Saiyajin. It completely took the character development he went through in the previous arc, set it on fire, threw it in a dumpster, and then set the dumpster on fire.

Don't get me wrong; I like Cabba. Vegeta breaking through his limits and obtaining a new transformation, neither of which were previously alluded to nor foreshadowed nor built up nor seemingly relevant in any way for such a ridiculous motive completely killed off any hype I had for Vegeta. Plus, what can this new form to do Jiren when Jiren isn't even using that much of his power? If Jiren powers up and mops the floor with Vegeta, Super Saiyajin Royal Blue will have been completely pointless.

I want to cheer for Vegeta, but I feel like he's been handled so terribly during this arc, minus the impressive feats he's exhibited in battle; that's the only thing I liked about Vegeta throughout this entire story arc.
I feel the same, like every single part of that. To me, I think he should've been more involved with the U6 Saiyans (especially Cabba and maybe Kale), as he and Goku could have both been mentoring them and possibly aligning with them temporarily. I do think that he needed something to close the gap between him and Goku since Goku would have had 2 powerups over him, but his new transformation is trash and its obvious to me that it means very little in the grand scheme of things.

To answer the OP. The only thing I'd enjoy Vegeta doing at this point is having a good fight with Toppo. I don't care if he gets the win, since I enjoy Toppo more, but if he does get the win over Toppo, I'd like him to use the thought of his family as motivation. Really, I want to see more interactions between Vegeta and Frieza, maybe a brief teamup and I'd like to see Frieza legitimately betray him at the end. Okay, I'm caught, I just want Frieza to win the whole tournament, through guile.
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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by Black Hawk » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:26 pm

BWri wrote:I feel the same, like every single part of that. To me, I think he should've been more involved with the U6 Saiyans (especially Cabba and maybe Kale), as he and Goku could have both been mentoring them and possibly aligning with them temporarily. I do think that he needed something to close the gap between him and Goku since Goku would have had 2 powerups over him, but his new transformation is trash and its obvious to me that it means very little in the grand scheme of things.
I feel like Super Saiyajin Royal Blue would have served Vegeta much better (and actually made sense and been deserved) back during the Zero Mortals Plan. While Trunks' Super Saiyajin Ikari/Anger/Rage/Hatred/Blue-But-Not-Blue/Etc. kind of came out of nowhere, it made sense from a narrative standpoint; it came in response to Zamas blaming him for everything that had happened and to his own helplessness to be of any use in the battle with Black and Zamas. SSJ Royal Blue could have come to Vegeta in response to his fury at being dominated by a "fake" version of Kakarotto and to his desperation to save the future counterpart of his son; plus, it would have caught him up to Gokū's Kaiōken during the arc after its debut instead of two arcs afterward when it had already been outclassed by Ultra Instinct Omen and made completely irrelevant.

In the Tournament of Power, it's not only pointless, but it came in response to "I MUST KEEP MY PROMISE TO THIS KID I BARELY KNOW AND DON'T EVEN LIKE INSTEAD OF MY NEWBORN DAUGHTER! HRAAAAAAGH!!"
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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by Kanious » Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:42 pm

It was ok. i wanted to see interaction between Vegeta and Kale/Caulifla. Also, a fight would be cool too.

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Re: Vegeta's participation was satisfactory in ToP?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:30 pm

Black Hawk wrote:
BWri wrote:I feel the same, like every single part of that. To me, I think he should've been more involved with the U6 Saiyans (especially Cabba and maybe Kale), as he and Goku could have both been mentoring them and possibly aligning with them temporarily. I do think that he needed something to close the gap between him and Goku since Goku would have had 2 powerups over him, but his new transformation is trash and its obvious to me that it means very little in the grand scheme of things.
I feel like Super Saiyajin Royal Blue would have served Vegeta much better (and actually made sense and been deserved) back during the Zero Mortals Plan. While Trunks' Super Saiyajin Ikari/Anger/Rage/Hatred/Blue-But-Not-Blue/Etc. kind of came out of nowhere, it made sense from a narrative standpoint; it came in response to Zamas blaming him for everything that had happened and to his own helplessness to be of any use in the battle with Black and Zamas. SSJ Royal Blue could have come to Vegeta in response to his fury at being dominated by a "fake" version of Kakarotto and to his desperation to save the future counterpart of his son; plus, it would have caught him up to Gokū's Kaiōken during the arc after its debut instead of two arcs afterward when it had already been outclassed by Ultra Instinct Omen and made completely irrelevant.

In the Tournament of Power, it's not only pointless, but it came in response to "I MUST KEEP MY PROMISE TO THIS KID I BARELY KNOW AND DON'T EVEN LIKE INSTEAD OF MY NEWBORN DAUGHTER! HRAAAAAAGH!!"
I see it differently.

Kyabe died entrusting everything to Vegeta, who made a promise to win the tournament and revive U6.
So this has become a huge burden on Vegeta, who needs to keep his promise at any cost.

Not to mention that for the new transformation of Vegeta, we already had Kyabe as motivation. If Bulma and Bra were used in the same scene, then they could not be "saved" for later, at a more critical time (where Vegeta is really being defeated and thinks of them)

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