Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

[TheOtherDude]

This is my main problem with not only this episode, but DBS as a whole. If DB/Z was a 7-8 on average, DBS is a 4-5 in comparison. Its a significant drop in quality, but the problem is that I believe people like Zenkai make up a good majority of the DBS fanbase in general. The kind of people that look pass any glaring flaws and enjoy the show as is. Now there is nothing wrong with that at the surface as different people like different things and what not, but its represents an underlaying problem.

Their are pros and cons to this, the pros is for Toei and company in general. If the fans are okay with a half-effort/lazy product it means they have no problems delivering that level of work on a regular basis if they know people will eat it up without fail, the cons is that for fans that want DBS to be the best it can be will never get that kind of product because we make up the minority which means our valid criticism go unheard.

Too many people are alrite with this product and its never going to get better if you keep supporting mediocre efforts that go into it and that is what bugs me the most about not only DBS, but the fanbase in general. I should be thrilled about DBS, but it seems with each passing episodes my enthusiasm for it diminishes over a period of time to the point I'm more happy DBS is ending than continuing and that just feels wrong to me.

i agree with pretty much everything you said.

I believe a simple solution would be for the manga to take the lead and for Toei to be forced into following that. It gives a less margin of error and allows very little chance for the writers to take too much liberty. Super is a perfect example of Toei taking the lead.

I’m not completely bashing the anime. There are some things I like in the anime moreso than the manga, but overall I appreciate the manga more. Hopefully they’ll do something like that if/when it starts back up.

This is to the both of you

The manga isn't any more canon. It's written by Toyotaro who loves to constantly do his own thing (Vegetto and SSgod Vegeta not being in Toriyama's transcripts are just some examples etc)

The anime(Toei) are following Toriyama's outlines and transcripts. And even if Toei wants to make little changes, it always is approved by Toriyama first (has to be approved by Toriyama first)

If anything the anime is "more canon" because Toei themselfes just came out and said that they treat the word of Toriyama as the word of god. The anime has been more in line with Toriyama's original visions etc.

And in my personal opinion the manga is a forgettable afterthought compared to the anime. Very boring to read the manga. It's very plain. The anime is far superior at character moments, epicness, excitement, music, fights etc

This idea that the manga will "fix" everything is funny because

1. What needs "fixing?" The anime is better to many people

2. The manga will follow the same outlines that the anime hit lol. Both follow Toriyama's outlines lol

Unless Toyotaro makes drastic changes which is a possibility considering how much of a loose canon Toyotaro is, which therefore would make the manga non canon. Non canon being anything that veers away from Toriyama's transcripts that Toriyama doesn't first approve

I’m curious. Have you ever watched the original dragon ball? Have you watched Z? There’s no way that someone who “knows” the series would come up with these conclusions you draw. To say you don’t understand what needs “fixing” in the series tells everyone that you don’t watch Super with a critical lense. Which I’m envious of since some of us are too detail oriented.

Both dragon ball and Z were better than Super. Toei has to follow the outlines the manga gave them. Yeah they had their flaws, but overall they were great packages. Super is the only one that has not followed a manga outline, so it’s no coincidence that Super has gotten so much hate. It’s because Toei and the manga have a very vague outline to follow, but other than that it seems like they can do whatever they want. These artistic liberties that Toei make are what frustrates viewers.

Basically what you’re saying is that you don’t like to read manga because it doesn’t have music and it’s not animated. How old are you? If anyone is a loose cannon, it’s toei. It has not been a very consistent series so far.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

i agree with pretty much everything you said.

I believe a simple solution would be for the manga to take the lead and for Toei to be forced into following that. It gives a less margin of error and allows very little chance for the writers to take too much liberty. Super is a perfect example of Toei taking the lead.

I’m not completely bashing the anime. There are some things I like in the anime moreso than the manga, but overall I appreciate the manga more. Hopefully they’ll do something like that if/when it starts back up.

This is to the both of you

The manga isn't any more canon. It's written by Toyotaro who loves to constantly do his own thing (Vegetto and SSgod Vegeta not being in Toriyama's transcripts are just some examples etc)

The anime(Toei) are following Toriyama's outlines and transcripts. And even if Toei wants to make little changes, it always is approved by Toriyama first (has to be approved by Toriyama first)

If anything the anime is "more canon" because Toei themselfes just came out and said that they treat the word of Toriyama as the word of god. The anime has been more in line with Toriyama's original visions etc.

And in my personal opinion the manga is a forgettable afterthought compared to the anime. Very boring to read the manga. It's very plain. The anime is far superior at character moments, epicness, excitement, music, fights etc

This idea that the manga will "fix" everything is funny because

1. What needs "fixing?" The anime is better to many people

2. The manga will follow the same outlines that the anime hit lol. Both follow Toriyama's outlines lol

Unless Toyotaro makes drastic changes which is a possibility considering how much of a loose canon Toyotaro is, which therefore would make the manga non canon. Non canon being anything that veers away from Toriyama's transcripts that Toriyama doesn't first approve

I’m curious. Have you ever watched the original dragon ball? Have you watched Z? There’s no way that someone who “knows” the series would come up with these conclusions you draw. To say you don’t understand what needs “fixing” in the series tells everyone that you don’t watch Super with a critical lense. Which I’m envious of since some of us are too detail oriented.

Both dragon ball and Z were better than Super. Toei has to follow the outlines the manga gave them. Yeah they had their flaws, but overall they were great packages. Super is the only one that has not followed a manga outline, so it’s no coincidence that Super has gotten so much hate. It’s because Toei and the manga have a very vague outline to follow, but other than that it seems like they can do whatever they want. These artistic liberties that Toei make are what frustrates viewers.

Basically what you’re saying is that you don’t like to read manga because it doesn’t have music and it’s not animated. How old are you? If anyone is a loose cannon, it’s toei. It has not been a very consistent series so far.

You have to keep in mind, Dragon Ball and DBZ were not around during the age of the internet where theres now hyper-analysis and rampant cynicism culture etc

If DBZ came out today with the internet the way it is today, I guarantee you there would be a lot of people claiming DBZ was awful too.

Anyway, I think the artistic liberties that Toyotaro takes are much worse imo.

The manga is so plain and forgettable. That's just my opinion though

But remember, Toei themselfes just came out and said that they treat the word of Toriyama as the word of god....in all likelyhood, Toei is trying to follow Toriyama's outlines as much as possible

I bet filler episodes just have vauge outlines. I agree

But when we are talking about major moments and the ending, you bet Toriyama's outlines are more thorough - and that Toriyama is much more involved.

Everything major you have seen happen in the anime. It's going to be the same in the manga. Both follow Toriyama's outlines...It's all the same major story beats...xcept we actually had Toei themselfes come out and say that they follow Toriyama more closely

[ZenkaiBoosts]

ps I agree that its disappointing that we still dont know why Jiren is so powerful.

Also, no one else has really commented on this

Anyone else find it ironic how 17 sacrificed himself to save Goku, the very same person he was programmed to kill?

Now isn't that something. Super has its deep moments too

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Jiren actually means stovetop in chinese

The theory has been that the secret to Jiren's power is his meditation - that "he gathers 'heat' i.e energy" while meditating

Remember when Belmond said "Jiren can never lose because he will always grow stronger then his opponent"...something to that effect

Hmmmmmm. Lines up doesn't it?

We got backstory on Jiren's past and on why his attitude is the way it is...And I LOVED it...I've been telling people that Jiren is an underrated savage who's very confident and who likes to talk thrash.

Now I hope we get backstory that this time dwells into Jiren's strength and why he is as strong as he is

Or maybe we already got that explaination. Simply that he was obsessed with strength and always growing stronger (and has been training diligently since a kid)

It's not the interesting thorough explaination people want, but that works too

I enjoyed Jiren's backstory regardless. Baby Jiren was so cute. I started feeling bad for Jiren too

[The gr]

Just a speculation.#17 is faking his death,is a smart move for U7,he can't be sensed so Jiren wouldn't see this move coming.

He will he get his cruise by being the last Man standing .

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

How did Android 17 self-destruct his body? Wasn't the explosive device of 17 removed at the end of the Cell arc?

Whatever. This episode is the Zamasu's arc (ep. 65-66) all over again. The protagonists should not be able to fight on-par with the superior antagonist, but somehow they can.

True, he doesn't have the device in him but he probably took note from Vegeta. Just used his own power to self destruct.

So he learned that technique in only 1 minute? Wow... that's... that's astonishing, i mean... that's unbelievable! He's even better than Trunks, who learned the Mafuba in 5 minutes and successfully used it against Future Zamasu!

I can imagine learning to blow your self up is easier then learning the mafuba. But hey that's just me.

[fadeddreams5]

I'm sure Vegeta never learned how to blow himself up. It's something kind of inherent when you have a lot of power. You just release it all, including your life energy...and boom.

The weird thing in this episode is that, if I'm not mistaken, they specifically said Android 17 "self-destructed." That's something commonly used for a robot or android, implying he did in fact have a bomb inside of him. I'm 99% sure the writers had that in mind, though it's easy for them to correct themselves in this context.

[Exline]

This is my main problem with not only this episode, but DBS as a whole. If DB/Z was a 7-8 on average, DBS is a 4-5 in comparison. Its a significant drop in quality, but the problem is that I believe people like Zenkai make up a good majority of the DBS fanbase in general. The kind of people that look pass any glaring flaws and enjoy the show as is. Now there is nothing wrong with that at the surface as different people like different things and what not, but its represents an underlaying problem.

Their are pros and cons to this, the pros is for Toei and company in general. If the fans are okay with a half-effort/lazy product it means they have no problems delivering that level of work on a regular basis if they know people will eat it up without fail, the cons is that for fans that want DBS to be the best it can be will never get that kind of product because we make up the minority which means our valid criticism go unheard.

Too many people are alrite with this product and its never going to get better if you keep supporting mediocre efforts that go into it and that is what bugs me the most about not only DBS, but the fanbase in general. I should be thrilled about DBS, but it seems with each passing episodes my enthusiasm for it diminishes over a period of time to the point I'm more happy DBS is ending than continuing and that just feels wrong to me.

i agree with pretty much everything you said.

I believe a simple solution would be for the manga to take the lead and for Toei to be forced into following that. It gives a less margin of error and allows very little chance for the writers to take too much liberty. Super is a perfect example of Toei taking the lead.

I’m not completely bashing the anime. There are some things I like in the anime moreso than the manga, but overall I appreciate the manga more. Hopefully they’ll do something like that if/when it starts back up.

This is to the both of you

The manga isn't any more canon. It's written by Toyotaro who loves to constantly do his own thing (Vegetto and SSgod Vegeta not being in Toriyama's transcripts are just some examples etc)

The anime(Toei) are following Toriyama's outlines and transcripts. And even if Toei wants to make little changes, it always is approved by Toriyama first (has to be approved by Toriyama first)

If anything the anime is "more canon" because Toei themselfes just came out and said that they treat the word of Toriyama as the word of god. The anime has been more in line with Toriyama's original visions etc.

And in my personal opinion the manga is a forgettable afterthought compared to the anime. Very boring to read the manga. It's very plain. The anime is far superior imo due to character moments, epicness, excitement, music, fights etc

This idea that the manga will "fix" everything is funny to me because

1. What needs "fixing" exactly? What can they do? According to many people the anime is better.

2. The manga will follow the same outlines that the anime hit lol. Both follow Toriyama's outlines lol. Some people seem to not truly understand that

Unless Toyotaro makes drastic changes which is a possibility considering how much of a loose canon Toyotaro is, which therefore would make the manga non canon. Non canon being anything that veers away from Toriyama's transcripts that Toriyama doesn't first approve

There is no way Toriyama can approve every episode that comes out. He's too busy to deal with that is he not? If he was okay with 119, then Toriyama must be losing his mind.

To answer your first question, things that need "fixing" from the anime.
-Power Scaling
-Time Management
-Consistent Writing and Quality
-Storyteling
-Choreography

I enjoy the anime for most of its episodes, but then sometimes it does indeed make mistakes that should not be ignored and should be complained about to ensure Toei doesn't repeat the same mistake.

For your second question, I disagree. Toyotaro seems to take a much more different approach most of the time which is rather interesting, like with how he introduced Caulifla and Kale, making their characters much more like-able then their anime counterparts. Another example would be the Zen Exhibition match with the GoDs instead of Universe 9. I enjoy Toyotaro's unpredictability with his manga.

You're very biased with your claims. Instead of bashing either the anime or the manga, maybe learn to enjoy both like some of us do. It's two different takes of the same story which is what I find to be a great idea.

[Asura]

I think another big problem with 17’s sacrifice is it felt like it didn’t accomplish anything. What exactly was the purpose of his self sacrifice? So that Goku and Vegeta could get a literal 30 seconds of rest in-universe time? Which seems like it will do nothing anyway judging by next episode.

The man literally blew himself up so Goku and Vegeta could lay down for a few more seconds. It’s really quite silly to think about.

[Arugela]

True, he doesn't have the device in him but he probably took note from Vegeta. Just used his own power to self destruct.

So he learned that technique in only 1 minute? Wow... that's... that's astonishing, i mean... that's unbelievable! He's even better than Trunks, who learned the Mafuba in 5 minutes and successfully used it against Future Zamasu!

I can imagine learning to blow your self up is easier then learning the mafuba. But hey that's just me.

I'd bet you anything roshi mafuba'd himself once or twice over the years! ><

[Venus]

I think another big problem with 17’s sacrifice is it felt like it didn’t accomplish anything. What exactly was the purpose of his self sacrifice? So that Goku and Vegeta could get a literal 30 seconds of rest in-universe time? Which seems like it will do nothing anyway judging by next episode.

The man literally blew himself up so Goku and Vegeta could lay down for a few more seconds. It’s really quite silly to think about.

Well, if 17 wouldn't had sacrificed himself, U7 would've been done for, with that last attack of Jiren.

[Whatever]

I never said Goku is the only person who trains. On the contrary, I'm saying everyone and their mothers train in this series, so what makes Jiren so special? It is never stated anywhere that he was a prodigy. In fact, he got mopped by some unknown villain several times over. You could say he's trained for many more years than Goku, but then... why is he superior to Hit too, a man with a thousand years of experience and mastery over ****ing time itself?

This is db,everyone who is above average is a prodigy,thats how it works and how it always worked.Would it really make a difference if Belmod said Jiren is a prodigy?
It would like the U6 saiyans,yeah we can clearly see it.
We also don't know how old Jiren is.

Saiyans have higher fighting potential than any race. The ones from Universe 7 were just stupid. Goku himself is the biggest proof of this; he was the lowest of the low, and now he's the highest of the high.

The U7 Saiyans were all time fighting so they had many chances to get zenkais,unlock super saiyan which even 6 year olds and 7 years olds with 0 training can achieve.
Why did the 6/7 year olds got super saiyan got so easily?Because they are prodigies of course.They were born stronger than saiyan saga Vegeta who was also a prodigy of his race.
Goku was also a prodigy thats why he got so far,he also got many chances at life again so that helps as well.

I think another big problem with 17’s sacrifice is it felt like it didn’t accomplish anything. What exactly was the purpose of his self sacrifice? So that Goku and Vegeta could get a literal 30 seconds of rest in-universe time? Which seems like it will do nothing anyway judging by next episode.

The man literally blew himself up so Goku and Vegeta could lay down for a few more seconds. It’s really quite silly to think about.

He protected them from Jiren's attack even if we exclude those few seconds he gave them lol.

[fadeddreams5]

I never said Goku is the only person who trains. On the contrary, I'm saying everyone and their mothers train in this series, so what makes Jiren so special? It is never stated anywhere that he was a prodigy. In fact, he got mopped by some unknown villain several times over. You could say he's trained for many more years than Goku, but then... why is he superior to Hit too, a man with a thousand years of experience and mastery over ****ing time itself?

This is db,everyone who is above average is a prodigy,thats how it works and how it always worked.Would it really make a difference if Belmod said Jiren is a prodigy?
It would like the U6 saiyans,yeah we can clearly see it.
We also don't know how old Jiren is.

Saiyans have higher fighting potential than any race. The ones from Universe 7 were just stupid. Goku himself is the biggest proof of this; he was the lowest of the low, and now he's the highest of the high.

The U7 Saiyans were all time fighting so they had many chances to get zenkais,unlock super saiyan which even 6 year olds and 7 years olds with 0 training can achieve.
Why did the 6/7 year olds got super saiyan got so easily?Because they are prodigies of course.They were born stronger than saiyan saga Vegeta who was also a prodigy of his race.
Goku was also a prodigy thats why he got so far,he also got many chances at life again so that helps as well.

I think another big problem with 17’s sacrifice is it felt like it didn’t accomplish anything. What exactly was the purpose of his self sacrifice? So that Goku and Vegeta could get a literal 30 seconds of rest in-universe time? Which seems like it will do nothing anyway judging by next episode.

The man literally blew himself up so Goku and Vegeta could lay down for a few more seconds. It’s really quite silly to think about.

He protected them from Jiren's attack even if we exclude those few seconds he gave them lol.

It would make a big difference if Belmod mentioned he was a prodigy. Or even better, if he had an actually good backstory.

Goten and Trunks are the sons of Super Saiyans. It came naturally. Also, they're half-breeds, which naturally gives them greater potential. Goku is immensely talented and skilled as a fighter, but power-wise, he is no prodigy. He's the complete opposite; the weakest of the weak who still managed to train his way to a level slightly below the gods.

[Kataphrut]

Here's another thing we can add to the growing pile of "good ideas, terrible execution", but I like that Jiren's backstory gave no explanation as to why he became so strong. As in, there was nothing explaining his power level, no mention of him being a prodigy or a mutant or any of the usual excuses. It was all about character motivation.

I guess we can infer from it that he just trained really really hard because he was unhealthily obsessed with strength. While I'm sure there are many who would've preferred we get a strength explanation, I'm honestly sick of prodigies and mutants and all the other convenient excuses Dragon Ball has to make people strong as they need to be for the plot. I prefer the direction they were going for, even if it could have been better handled.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

i agree with pretty much everything you said.

I believe a simple solution would be for the manga to take the lead and for Toei to be forced into following that. It gives a less margin of error and allows very little chance for the writers to take too much liberty. Super is a perfect example of Toei taking the lead.

I’m not completely bashing the anime. There are some things I like in the anime moreso than the manga, but overall I appreciate the manga more. Hopefully they’ll do something like that if/when it starts back up.

This is to the both of you

The manga isn't any more canon. It's written by Toyotaro who loves to constantly do his own thing (Vegetto and SSgod Vegeta not being in Toriyama's transcripts are just some examples etc)

The anime(Toei) are following Toriyama's outlines and transcripts. And even if Toei wants to make little changes, it always is approved by Toriyama first (has to be approved by Toriyama first)

If anything the anime is "more canon" because Toei themselfes just came out and said that they treat the word of Toriyama as the word of god. The anime has been more in line with Toriyama's original visions etc.

And in my personal opinion the manga is a forgettable afterthought compared to the anime. Very boring to read the manga. It's very plain. The anime is far superior imo due to character moments, epicness, excitement, music, fights etc

This idea that the manga will "fix" everything is funny to me because

1. What needs "fixing" exactly? What can they do? According to many people the anime is better.

2. The manga will follow the same outlines that the anime hit lol. Both follow Toriyama's outlines lol. Some people seem to not truly understand that

Unless Toyotaro makes drastic changes which is a possibility considering how much of a loose canon Toyotaro is, which therefore would make the manga non canon. Non canon being anything that veers away from Toriyama's transcripts that Toriyama doesn't first approve

There is no way Toriyama can approve every episode that comes out. He's too busy to deal with that is he not? If he was okay with 119, then Toriyama must be losing his mind.

Err Toryiama approves any differentiations from his transscripts.

And obviously Toriyama is involved too. Someone posted an interview where Toriyama said he reads the scripts that gets sent to him and gives his thoughts on them etc. Something to that effect

Obviously filler episodes are just going to be going off Toriyama's outlines witj much more room to add in their own blanks

But when it comes to major story beats, major moments (and especially the ending) You best believe that Toriyama is involved and wrote more thorough outlines for what his vision was etc

to answer your first question, things that need "fixing" from the anime.
-Power Scaling
-Time Management
-Consistent Writing and Quality
-Storyteling
-Choreography

So basically everything is wrong with the anime in your opinion. It figures. Your bias is clearly for the manga. Cool. That's just your opinion man. I'm not going to debate your opinion with you. You listed what you think is wrong. Good for you.

For your second question, I disagree. Toyotaro seems to take a much more different approach most of the time which is rather interesting, like with how he introduced Caulifla and Kale, making their characters much more like-able then their anime counterparts. Another example would be the Zen Exhibition match with the GoDs instead of Universe 9. I enjoy Toyotaro's unpredictability with his manga

Those are slight variations that don't matter much to the main story beats

This is what I'm saying

Both the anime and manga follow the same outlines form Toriyama - and must hit all the same major story beats

So when the pro manga people try to act like the anime is an abomination and a night and day difference between the manga, it's hilariously hypocritical, and just doesn't make any logical sense

If you prefer the magna, good for you. But it will follow the same outlines and stories of the anime

I just like how when Toyotaro goes off script it's a great thing, but when there's simply speculation about Toei going off script (even though Toei said they don't and treat Toriyama as the #1 authority) It's Toei making the anime terrible etc

Toyotaro is very over rated

I'm not the one who's biased here. But regardless everyone is entitled to their opinion. I respect that you prefer the manga. Now you respect my opinion that I like the anime much more.

[Exline]

Err Toryiama approves any differentiations from his transscripts.

And obviously Toriyama is involved too. Someone posted an interview where Toriyama said he reads the scripts that gets sent to him and gives his thoughts on them etc. Something to that effect

Obviously filler episodes are just going to be going off Toriyama's outlines witj much more room to add in their own blanks

But when it comes to major story beats, major moments (and especially the ending) You best believe that Toriyama is involved and wrote more thorough outlines for what his vision was etc

I understand that the stories between the manga and the anime will be similar. It's well known that they both follow Toriyama's outlines. I don't think anyone is trying to disprove that. You call what I saw as major differences as "little variations." I do not find them to be little at all. Goku Black was portrayed well in the anime with his descent into madness after being beaten by mortals and finally rising above them, which lead to him becoming more of a fan favorite than his manga counterpart. This should not be seen as a little variation when the change in personality has a large impact on how we view those characters.

So basically everything is wrong with the anime in your opinion. It figures. Your bias is clearly for the manga. Cool. That's just your opinion man. I'm not going to debate your opinion with you. You listed what you think is wrong. Good for you.

I only answered your question because it asked about what needed to be fixed from the anime to the manga. If you wanted me to, I could list some problems with the manga as well. Both the anime and Manga have mistakes. Since the Manga is behind, we only wish that Toyotaro will be able to improve upon these mistakes made by Toei.

So when the pro manga people try to act like the anime is an abomination and a night and day difference between the manga, it's hilariously hypocritical, and just doesn't make any logical sense

If you prefer the magna, good for you. But it will follow the same outlines and stories of the anime

I just like how when Toyotaro goes off script it's a great thing, but when there's simply speculation about Toei going off script (even though Toei said they don't and treat Toriyama as the #1 authority) It's Toei making the anime terrible etc

Toyotaro is very over rated

I'm not the one who's biased here. But regardless everyone is entitled to their opinion. I respect that you prefer the manga. Now you respect my opinion that I like the anime much more.

If Toei is closely following Toriyama's vision, then I sure am glad Toyotaro is going off script to provide us with sometimes a better portrayal of certain scenarios. I'm not trying to imply that Manga is the better version to read. In my previous response, I even stated that both the anime and Manga should be enjoyed rather than favoring one over the other. We shouldn't turn a blind eye by favoring one over the other and not realizing the mistakes that are being made by both.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The reason why I feel Toriyama chose to keep Vegeta in base form is to really showcase how outmatched Vegeta is and that despite how outmatched Vegeta is, Vegeta keeps coming at Jiren with resiliency until the very end.

Its to further showcase Vegeta's durability, will, and resiliency.

Vegeta in base form isnt going to be competitive lol.

Plus people want more sound logic in Super, its only logical Vegeta can only stay in base form now. Hes used up every ounce of energ he has. You want him to just start magically powering up to SSB again. People hated that Vegeta did that in this episode after 126. 128 is fixing that. Its been Vegeta's time to go for a while. They are giving Vegetav2 epic farewells now. Its finally time tobe all about Goku now

So Goku recovering all their energy in seconds is logical?

Constantly nerfing Jirens strength to give people some attention?

After Vegeta nearly self destructed and was completely out of energy, he was still powering up to SSB this episode. That was highly illogical.

Considering all that, Vegeta staying in base form in 128 is a great correction and very logical

Goku started running into stamina issues because his first battle with Jiren

1. Remember Frieza gave Goku energy

2. Goku got Omen again against Kefla

3. Its been implied Goku has been getting zenkai boosts

Now I'm not saying its tge best logic, but its def more logical then whats been happening with Vegeta's situation imo

In what way ways do you feel Jiren was nerfed? I've made posts adressing that

After the fight against Kefla, Goku could hardly stand.

And on the next EP he activated Blue as if it were nothing.
Then he still used Blue Kaioken and a Kamehameha capable of destroying a U2 black hole.

Goku's situation is no different than Vegeta's situation.

However, it was emphasized in both situations that Goku and Vegeta were still injured and could not use their full power

Goku/Vegeta performed identically well against him as they did before

Goku def held his own better. He avoided the same punch that blew Vegeta out of his form.

They did not perform "identically" well. Goku showcased his superior fighting talent by dodging the same blow that knocked Vegeta out of his limit breaker form and using superior techniques while doing so. Dragon Ball rarely ever depicts Goku and Vegeta performing identically well because Goku is the main character and has always been the more talented fighter out of two. Plus we're comparing Vegeta to his KKx20 form when Goku has another transformation.

No, Goku only managed to deflect Jiren's blow because of the teleportation, but he defeated him in the same way. Just did not return to base form because it was not hit directly

But even so, Jiren was fighting a lot more against Vegeta, and Vegeta did well, even being tired
He still defended his punch and said he understood why Vegeta had defeated Toppo, which did not happen to Goku

[goku the krump dancer]

They should've just had Vegeta and Freeza switch roles this episode.. Vegeta was supposed to be completely spent from his desperate attack on Toppo. or if anything just left both of them out until the last minute and have Vegeta finally get back up after 17 blows up and says Goku. Freeza would still be mopped from last episode.

Thats how I would've done it.

[OLKv3]

I love this image because I was thinking the same thing lmao.

[fadeddreams5]

Here's another thing we can add to the growing pile of "good ideas, terrible execution", but I like that Jiren's backstory gave no explanation as to why he became so strong. As in, there was nothing explaining his power level, no mention of him being a prodigy or a mutant or any of the usual excuses. It was all about character motivation.

I guess we can infer from it that he just trained really really hard because he was unhealthily obsessed with strength. While I'm sure there are many who would've preferred we get a strength explanation, I'm honestly sick of prodigies and mutants and all the other convenient excuses Dragon Ball has to make people strong as they need to be for the plot. I prefer the direction they were going for, even if it could have been better handled.

I don't think it could have been handled better, honestly. It wasn't a good idea at all, given the fact that training is at the root of this franchise. Everyone trains for different reasons, but this guy somehow became a level above a GoD, as opposed to everyone else ever. Just dumb.

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I love this image because I was thinking the same thing lmao.

lmao. This is so true.