Is Dragon Ball Super going to retcon the end of Z?

[Bridgeman]

Right now, the "end of Z" chapters from the original manga are already in conflict with Super, such as Bulma saying at the end of Z she hasn't seen Goku in five years. Tournament of Power takes place in age 780, end of Z takes place in age 784.

I know it's unusual, as I don't think they've ever retconned the original manga before, but I think it's best they do here. Not just because of the inconsistencies, but if they rewrite the end of Z, they can also finally move on with the timeline already and give us some Pan / adult Goten / adult Trunks / Uub action. And do a better job with it than GT did.

[ToshioWrites]

Right now, the "end of Z" chapters from the original manga are already in conflict with Super, such as Bulma saying at the end of Z she hasn't seen Goku in five years. Tournament of Power takes place in age 780, end of Z takes place in age 784.

I know it's unusual, as I don't think they've ever retconned the original manga before, but I think it's best they do here. Not just because of the inconsistencies, but if they rewrite the end of Z, they can also finally move on with the timeline already and give us some Pan / adult Goten / adult Trunks / Uub action. And do a better job with it than GT did.

Minor stuff like not seeing you for "x years" and such but its main tenants will most likely be the same.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

Oh Hell no.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Unlikely. Bulma could have been exaggerating when she said 5 years, it's not unusual for someone to emphazise something just to make a bigger deal out of it

[shadowmaria]

Super is more likely going to end with; for the continued adventures of Goku and his friends, be sure to watch Dragon Ball GT than retcon EoZ

[Bridgeman]

Super is more likely going to end with; for the continued adventures of Goku and his friends, be sure to watch Dragon Ball GT than retcon EoZ

But GT is no longer possible in the same timeline as Super. Kibito Kai is still fused in GT, and Goku and Vegeta are already far stronger than Super Saiyan 4. GT no longer makes any sense as a follow up of Dragon Ball Z.

[Basaku]

Super is more likely going to end with; for the continued adventures of Goku and his friends, be sure to watch Dragon Ball GT than retcon EoZ

But GT is no longer possible in the same timeline as Super. Kibito Kai is still fused in GT, and Goku and Vegeta are already far stronger than Super Saiyan 4. GT no longer makes any sense as a follow up of Dragon Ball Z.

But that doesn't stop Toei from proclaiming "nu-uh still canon", even if it doesn't make sense. They're the showrunners so yeah. I doubt they care about preserving GT that much at this point (especially within the prospect of developing brand new post-EOZ series to push new merch and stuff) but you never know

[Saturnine]

To be frank, I've seen worse retcons than making 4 years out of 5 years, really...

There probably wouldn't even have been any inconsistency had they given more care to the time placement.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Didn't some of the showrunners already shoot this idea down in some interviews? Toyotaro also said that Super wouldn't change the ending.

This discussion is moot because the question was already answered: the original manga/anime ending won't be changed.

[Arugela]

There is something called rounding...

Why can't they refuse?

All they need is something as stupid as they only had one ticket to a movie and decided to fuse to get in to watch it. Assuming they can just unfuse later with dragon balls. Which they may or may not get to use in the future because of constant use. >< That or they just forget.

Maybe they just really had to finally see the movie about the great saiyama and it was sold out and bulma or her dad had a ticket but they only had one ticket. They said that was find and went of and fused to get into the movie.

The old kai looks in his crystal ball and asks him why he didn't just use a crystal ball to watch it. They said that would be cheating. And that they were told by someone it was better to watch in person. Plus it would save on the cost of popcorn. And a kais responsibility is to be frugal... The old kai rolls his eyes and sighs and says something about young people. All the powers in the universe and they waste their time on such trivial things.

[GamerSkull]

Doubt it... just minor things.

But it's discrepancies like these (coupled with the writing quality of DBS and DBGT) that make me glad I treat anything after Z as a "what-if" or an "alternate timeline."

EoZ itself is more of a minor one though. (shit like Goten and Trunks not having aged gets to me even though I know why they did it. stuff like that)

[shadowmaria]

But that doesn't stop Toei from proclaiming "nu-uh still canon", even if it doesn't make sense. They're the showrunners so yeah. I doubt they care about preserving GT that much at this point (especially within the prospect of developing brand new post-EOZ series to push new merch and stuff) but you never know

Toei Animation have never, in any capacity, stated that GT is non-canon. This is an assumption people have created over the last twenty years based on the fact that they either didn't like GT, because Toriyama stated in an interview over a decade ago that GT is a grand side-story that he looks forward to watching with everyone else.

The supporting comics for Marvel's Civil War event are side-stories that supplement the main books, that doesn't mean they're non-canon. It's the same thing as Rogue One: A Star Wars Story and Solo: A Star Wars Story.

GT's producer, Kozo Morishita stated in a 2005 interview that Toriyama approved the story elements and ideas as they're his characters and his sandbox that they are playing in. This does not automatically state something to be canon or non-canon.

But GT is no longer possible in the same timeline as Super. Kibito Kai is still fused in GT, and Goku and Vegeta are already far stronger than Super Saiyan 4. GT no longer makes any sense as a follow up of Dragon Ball Z.

The bolded is the currently only point not easily hand-waveable about Super / GT. We also do not currently know how Super will end, and the powers that be may end up making everything work anyway. We will not know for certain until Sunday the 25th of March, 2018 at 9:30 AM.

The latter has no basis whatsoever within the confines of the show, nor has any official word (read: official ONLY relates to Toei Animation, Shueisha, or Akira Toriyama himself) ever indicated that Goku and Vegeta have surpassed the limits of SSJ4 in their base or Super forms.

Xenoverse and Xenoverse 2 are video games and a video game developer's own interpretation of the timelines, and are produced by Dimps and Bandai Namco, not Toei Animation, Shueisha, or Akira Toriyama himself and are not appropriate basis for concrete confirmation regarding any canon standing of any part of the franchise (before anyone brings them up).

I didn't even come to this thread for a canon debate.

I'm simply stating that Super is more likely to end with that statement (or something to that effect), than retcon the manga's official ending. See: the end of Dragon Ball in the manga AND in the anime.

With all of that said, I doubt Toei Animation will turn around and say that certain events that are / have been massive merchandise pushers (Super Saiyan 4, Omega Shenron, etc.) over the years never happened or no longer exist as that may turn people off or away from buying the merchandise in the future. Just sayin'

[Cetra]

Super is more likely going to end with; for the continued adventures of Goku and his friends, be sure to watch Dragon Ball GT than retcon EoZ

But GT is no longer possible in the same timeline as Super. Kibito Kai is still fused in GT, and Goku and Vegeta are already far stronger than Super Saiyan 4. GT no longer makes any sense as a follow up of Dragon Ball Z.

Except fictional universes do not need real life logic to work. All they need is the intent of the creator(s). They can be as incoherent as they want. Something fans so conveniently forget when its about stuff they dislike but use fan explanations for when it comes to plotholes for parts they like. Yamamuro-san himself laughed back in 2016 about a fan question regarding the power of SSJG and SSJ4 when the fan said "many people think because GT was not made by Akira Toriyama it is not part of the story". He did not give him the reply he wanted because they never did before either and just said it has both characteristics of a sequel and a spin-off (and btw. both things can be canonical).

[shadowmaria]

Yamamuro-san himself laughed back in 2016 about a fan question regarding the power of SSJG and SSJ4 when the fan said "many people think because GT was not made by Akira Toriyama it is not part of the story". He did not give him the reply he wanted because they never did before either and just said it has both characteristics of a sequel and a spin-off (and btw. both things can be canonical).

I had no idea about this interview. Are you able to link me, would love to have a read

[Dbzfan94]

Super is more likely going to end with; for the continued adventures of Goku and his friends, be sure to watch Dragon Ball GT than retcon EoZ

But GT is no longer possible in the same timeline as Super. Kibito Kai is still fused in GT, and Goku and Vegeta are already far stronger than Super Saiyan 4. GT no longer makes any sense as a follow up of Dragon Ball Z.

Super doesnt make sense on its own, so GT being the sequel to that wouldnt be a stretch.

[Cetra]

Yamamuro-san himself laughed back in 2016 about a fan question regarding the power of SSJG and SSJ4 when the fan said "many people think because GT was not made by Akira Toriyama it is not part of the story". He did not give him the reply he wanted because they never did before either and just said it has both characteristics of a sequel and a spin-off (and btw. both things can be canonical).

I had no idea about this interview. Are you able to link me, would love to have a read

It is a video/videos on youtube. It will probably take a while but I can send you a link.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... entrevista

[Bridgeman]

But that doesn't stop Toei from proclaiming "nu-uh still canon", even if it doesn't make sense. They're the showrunners so yeah. I doubt they care about preserving GT that much at this point (especially within the prospect of developing brand new post-EOZ series to push new merch and stuff) but you never know

Toei Animation have never, in any capacity, stated that GT is non-canon. This is an assumption people have created over the last twenty years based on the fact that they either didn't like GT, because Toriyama stated in an interview over a decade ago that GT is a grand side-story that he looks forward to watching with everyone else.

The supporting comics for Marvel's Civil War event are side-stories that supplement the main books, that doesn't mean they're non-canon. It's the same thing as Rogue One: A Star Wars Story and Solo: A Star Wars Story.

GT's producer, Kozo Morishita stated in a 2005 interview that Toriyama approved the story elements and ideas as they're his characters and his sandbox that they are playing in. This does not automatically state something to be canon or non-canon.

But GT is no longer possible in the same timeline as Super. Kibito Kai is still fused in GT, and Goku and Vegeta are already far stronger than Super Saiyan 4. GT no longer makes any sense as a follow up of Dragon Ball Z.

The bolded is the currently only point not easily hand-waveable about Super / GT. We also do not currently know how Super will end, and the powers that be may end up making everything work anyway. We will not know for certain until Sunday the 25th of March, 2018 at 9:30 AM.

The latter has no basis whatsoever within the confines of the show, nor has any official word (read: official ONLY relates to Toei Animation, Shueisha, or Akira Toriyama himself) ever indicated that Goku and Vegeta have surpassed the limits of SSJ4 in their base or Super forms.

Xenoverse and Xenoverse 2 are video games and a video game developer's own interpretation of the timelines, and are produced by Dimps and Bandai Namco, not Toei Animation, Shueisha, or Akira Toriyama himself and are not appropriate basis for concrete confirmation regarding any canon standing of any part of the franchise (before anyone brings them up).

I didn't even come to this thread for a canon debate.

I'm simply stating that Super is more likely to end with that statement (or something to that effect), than retcon the manga's official ending. See: the end of Dragon Ball in the manga AND in the anime.

With all of that said, I doubt Toei Animation will turn around and say that certain events that are / have been massive merchandise pushers (Super Saiyan 4, Omega Shenron, etc.) over the years never happened or no longer exist as that may turn people off or away from buying the merchandise in the future. Just sayin'

So we are to assume that Super Saiyan Blue is weaker than Super Saiyan 4, and they for some reason decided to never use Super Saiyan Blue again during GT? Come the fuck on. They need to cut to the chase already and disown GT. I thought Super was supposed to be the continuation of Dragon Ball that GT never was and never could be.

Either make it fit with GT and I'll consider it canon (albeit begrudgingly) or don't, but if you're gonna have blatant inconsistencies with GT don't try to still write it off as canon.

Unless Super, before it ends, re-fuses Shin and Kibito, and makes Pilaf, Mai, and Shu old again, GT is non-canon to me. Period.

[Cetra]

Unless Super, before it ends, re-fuses Shin and Kibito, and makes Pilaf, Mai, and Shu old again, GT is non-canon to me. Period.

There is no such thing as "(non-)canonical to you".

Also GT was and still is a continuation. As a matter of fact it is even more of a sequel than Super is simply because it is a post vol. 42 story while Super is not.

[Bridgeman]

Unless Super, before it ends, re-fuses Shin and Kibito, and makes Pilaf, Mai, and Shu old again, GT is non-canon to me. Period.

There is no such thing as "(non-)canonical to you".

Also GT was and still is a continuation. As a matter of fact it is even more of a sequel than Super is simply because it is a post vol. 42 story while Super is not.

Got that right, let's hope they have the stones to actually move past the end of Z, even if they're not going to retcon it. Otherwise I'm going to get very very bored of Goten and Trunks.

[Akyon]

Am I the only one who would prefer it, if it did retcon the End of Z?

Or at least redo it. Toriyama(if I recall) wasn't happy he made his cast look so damn old in EoZ, and since pretty much everyone is still looking relatively in their prime in Super(Roshi aside) that means everyone is going to age horrifically in the next four years.

By all means keep the thing with Uub, but with Super ending with the ToP, Super just feels...incomplete. Literally every other Super arc feels like a more natural place to end things than this other than maybe the Champa tournament, although even then the ToP could easily have been post EoZ with Uub and Pan competing. With the ToP setting up a multiverse, everything with Zeno and the Grand Priest, Frieza...just feels like there's too much to suddenly end it and then skip to EoZ.

EoZ has honestly felt like a restraining noose around Super's freedom as they desperately try to cram as much in to these few years without contradicting too much.