How would you have done transformations differently in Super?

[Fizzer]

A lot of people, myself included, think that Super introduced too many transformations that weren't always necessary or properly utilised from a storytelling point of view, and often smell like blatant merchandising.

Retrospectively, how would you have done this differently and how would it have affected the story as we know it?




For me, apart from the random ones like Rage, Blue is the biggest offender when it comes to de-valuing transformations. It's just so soon after the previous transformation which was shown to be an incredible power increase over what came before, and is responsible for a lot of the perceived power level inconsistencies too. I absolutely adore SSB+Kaioken with it's red and blue aura, and its initial reveal, but that alone isn't worth it.

I'd have got rid of blue, and had Goku and Vegeta simply improve their base/SSJ forms by training their God ki, but still not reaching that temporary stratospheric tier of power of Super Saiyan God itself. Then, while Goku is fighting Hit, at the point where in the anime he reveals the Kaioken and in the manga he goes blue, he reveals that now he can go SSG voluntarily, but it still only lasts for a limited amount of time. Vegeta would demonstrate he too can go SSG in the Zamasu arc.

As for Rage, I think of that as a sort of "SSJ2++", building on the "SSJ2+" that Vegeta taps into after "My Bulma!" and Trunks demonstrates (only in the manga, I think) when he spars with Goku.

[MKCSTEALTH]

If I did it, Goku and Vegeta would not have absorbed the god power into their base forms. They would need to tap into SSG in order to use god ki and fight on that level. Blue would've served as SSBKKx10 in that it would be something they're able to tap into for brief periods of time but it damages their stamina greatly and requires time to master so that we wouldn't see it as regularly in the series.

Rage could be explained as you said, with it being a rage boost to SSJ2, Rose is fine but would've like to have see regular Super Saiyan first. Berserk could be explained as an anomalous form that happens once every generation or so that Kale just happened to get. Ultra Instinct is also fine.

I feel toning down the power just a tad would really help the series, hence why they don't just become universe level fighters off the bat and don't have anywhere to really go. So that when we get to Jiren he can be the terrifying Younger Toguro of Dragonball like he should be.

[fadeddreams5]

Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Rage, and Berserker Super Saiyan shouldn't exist. The latter two are just face palm-worthy, and I don't think I need to go into detail as to why they're terrible. Additionally, Vegeta shouldn't have been given Gohan's hidden potential, but that's another story.

Super Saiyan God, though, has not only been the most useless transformation, but also the most disappointing and horribly designed one in the franchise too. He got thinner and little bowties on his boots... I swear to god Toriyama just wanted to troll people with that. Furthermore, the way to access the form was cringe-worthy and the complete opposite of what it takes to reach any SSJ state. It was just bad.

What Super Saiyan God should have been was a form attained through a moment of desperation. Perhaps, Goku was failing at deflecting an energy ball thrown at the planet by Beerus, and all the other SSJs transmit their energy to him. Instead of a normal power-up, he gets crimson red hair in his SSJ form and the usual red SSJG aura. The kicker of this transformation would be that Goku cannot control his rage because, well, SSJ forms are formed through a strong emotions, so his entire battle with Beerus would be the latter sort of teaching him to maintain control. Goku fails, but Beerus spares him and the planet, per usual. THEN, once Goku gains control of the form through training with Whis, perhaps the transformation would alter: he'd have his regular SSJ hair, only with red highlights, red eyes, and a fire aura.

Orrrr...instead of the above, Super Saiyan Blue should have been Super Saiyan God from the start. Simple.

And yeah, power scaling has been absolutely awful in this series. SSJ3 Goku should not have been THAT far off Beerus.

[Fizzer]

If I did it, Goku and Vegeta would not have absorbed the god power into their base forms. They would need to tap into SSG in order to use god ki and fight on that level. Blue would've served as SSBKKx10 in that it would be something they're able to tap into for brief periods of time but it damages their stamina greatly and requires time to master so that we wouldn't see it as regularly in the series.

Rage could be explained as you said, with it being a rage boost to SSJ2, Rose is fine but would've like to have see regular Super Saiyan first. Berserk could be explained as an anomalous form that happens once every generation or so that Kale just happened to get. Ultra Instinct is also fine.

I feel toning down the power just a tad would really help the series, hence why they don't just become universe level fighters off the bat and don't have anywhere to really go. So that when we get to Jiren he can be the terrifying Younger Toguro of Dragonball like he should be.

Yeah I agree with this. Escalating to God then to Blue straight away is part of the power problem, so is absorbing God. I'm not sure how the ending of the BoG arc would work without absorbing the SSG power though.

Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Rage, and Berserker Super Saiyan shouldn't exist. The latter two are just face palm-worthy, and I don't think I need to go into detail as to why they're terrible. Additionally, Vegeta shouldn't have been given Gohan's hidden potential, but that's another story.

Super Saiyan God, though, has not only been the most useless transformation, but also the most disappointing and horribly designed one in the franchise too. He got thinner and little bowties on his boots... I swear to god Toriyama just wanted to troll people with that. Furthermore, the way to access the form was cringe-worthy and the complete opposite of what it takes to reach any SSJ state. It was just bad.

...

Orrrr...instead of the above, Super Saiyan Blue should have been Super Saiyan God from the start. Simple.

And yeah, power scaling has been absolutely awful in this series. SSJ3 Goku should not have been THAT far off Beerus.

Yeah my feeling was that it should have been either SSG OR SSB, there was no need for both. I think most people agree with you that SSB is the better design, but SSG does fit a bit more with the "literally becoming a god" idea IMO. It was supposed to be different to Super Saiyan forms - really "Saiyan God" would have been a much better name for it, but y'know, merchandising.

Do you think the form would have been better if it were just the red hair and eyes, and fiery aura?

[Vegeta_Sama]

First off I would not have introduced SSB so soon after SSG, because the latter form just lost importance after the Golden Frieza saga. I would have had Goku and Vegeta fight Frieza with SSG form and establish that they can tap into this form whenever they want, so it does not come back outta nowhere like it did in the anime. Maybe Goku and Vegeta should have obtained SSB in the Universe 6 saga, so that it replaces the SSB K in the fight against Hit. Vegeta would have been pissed that Kakaroth obtained the form before him etc... Then in the next arc make Vegeta show off his new form against Black in the "Should I tell you where you miscalculated" fight, after beign humilliated in SSG by SSR Goku Black. So now Goku and Vegeta are equals. No need for a new no name form for Vegeta just to catch up to Kaioh-Ken Goku. Now, Super Saiyan Rage... I like the idea of Trunks beign relevant, so I would have explained the form a bit better, saying that maybe it's a pseudo SSB and that he would need the ritual to unlock actual God Ki to use SSB. And that's pretty much it. Vegeta's form is cool and all, but I would scarp it because it's only a plot device to make catch up to KaiohKen.

[LightBing]

First thing would be to remove most of them. I would only keep Super Saiyan God to represent that level of power and because it looks amazing - better than Blue in my opinion.
I would also go with what appeared to be Mr. Toriyama's intention previous to Super and have the progression be Base - SSJ - SSJG. Simple and clear, we would miss out on SSJ2 and SSJ3, not a great loss even if SSJ3 looks great. Another option would be to go for uniqueness before SSJG.

After SSJ: Goku would use SSJ3 as an intermediate state, Vegeta would use Mutated SSJ2(with a visual cue unique sparks or muscular definition, something), Gohan has Mystic.

Trunks didn't need Rage, a simple "he got super strong by training" like it was said in the manga would suffix. There was no need to throw more random transformations into the mix. Likewise Blue Kaioken would never exist. Vegeta's new one is also hot garbage.

The manga was able to salvage Blue by giving it weaknesses, with the characters tackling the problem and eventually progressing through it.

I would keep Rosé, it's out of nowhere but in the anime it's used to the benefit of the character and it has the implication that it's the same thing as Blue.

Less is more.

[emperior]

First off I would not have introduced SSB so soon after SSG, because the latter form just lost importance after the Golden Frieza saga. I would have had Goku and Vegeta fight Frieza with SSG form and establish that they can tap into this form whenever they want, so it does not come back outta nowhere like it did in the anime. Maybe Goku and Vegeta should have obtained SSB in the Universe 6 saga, so that it replaces the SSB K in the fight against Hit. Vegeta would have been pissed that Kakaroth obtained the form before him etc... Then in the next arc make Vegeta show off his new form against Black in the "Should I tell you where you miscalculated" fight, after beign humilliated in SSG by SSR Goku Black. So now Goku and Vegeta are equals. No need for a new no name form for Vegeta just to catch up to Kaioh-Ken Goku. Now, Super Saiyan Rage... I like the idea of Trunks beign relevant, so I would have explained the form a bit better, saying that maybe it's a pseudo SSB and that he would need the ritual to unlock actual God Ki to use SSB. And that's pretty much it. Vegeta's form is cool and all, but I would scarp it because it's only a plot device to make catch up to KaiohKen.

I couldn't agree more with you. Goku achieving Blue in the 3 years of training pre-tournament would have also given a meaning to that training and to Beerus using Monaka to motivate them.

[Dragon Ball Gus]

First off I would not have introduced SSB so soon after SSG, because the latter form just lost importance after the Golden Frieza saga. I would have had Goku and Vegeta fight Frieza with SSG form and establish that they can tap into this form whenever they want, so it does not come back outta nowhere like it did in the anime. Maybe Goku and Vegeta should have obtained SSB in the Universe 6 saga, so that it replaces the SSB K in the fight against Hit. Vegeta would have been pissed that Kakaroth obtained the form before him etc... Then in the next arc make Vegeta show off his new form against Black in the "Should I tell you where you miscalculated" fight, after beign humilliated in SSG by SSR Goku Black. So now Goku and Vegeta are equals. No need for a new no name form for Vegeta just to catch up to Kaioh-Ken Goku. Now, Super Saiyan Rage... I like the idea of Trunks beign relevant, so I would have explained the form a bit better, saying that maybe it's a pseudo SSB and that he would need the ritual to unlock actual God Ki to use SSB. And that's pretty much it. Vegeta's form is cool and all, but I would scarp it because it's only a plot device to make catch up to KaiohKen.

I agree with this. The only thing I would tweak is Super Saiyan Rage. I would still make it related to Super Saiyan Blue, except I change it to where it actually is SSB, but it's the half breed version.

[Totamo]

Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Rage, and Berserker Super Saiyan shouldn't exist. The latter two are just face palm-worthy, and I don't think I need to go into detail as to why they're terrible. Additionally, Vegeta shouldn't have been given Gohan's hidden potential, but that's another story.

Super Saiyan God, though, has not only been the most useless transformation, but also the most disappointing and horribly designed one in the franchise too. He got thinner and little bowties on his boots... I swear to god Toriyama just wanted to troll people with that. Furthermore, the way to access the form was cringe-worthy and the complete opposite of what it takes to reach any SSJ state. It was just bad.

What Super Saiyan God should have been was a form attained through a moment of desperation. Perhaps, Goku was failing at deflecting an energy ball thrown at the planet by Beerus, and all the other SSJs transmit their energy to him. Instead of a normal power-up, he gets crimson red hair in his SSJ form and the usual red SSJG aura. The kicker of this transformation would be that Goku cannot control his rage because, well, SSJ forms are formed through a strong emotions, so his entire battle with Beerus would be the latter sort of teaching him to maintain control. Goku fails, but Beerus spares him and the planet, per usual. THEN, once Goku gains control of the form through training with Whis, perhaps the transformation would alter: he'd have his regular SSJ hair, only with red highlights, red eyes, and a fire aura.

Orrrr...instead of the above, Super Saiyan Blue should have been Super Saiyan God from the start. Simple.

And yeah, power scaling has been absolutely awful in this series. SSJ3 Goku should not have been THAT far off Beerus.

Wasn't that the point?
That ssg had to be achieved in a way no other saiyan would have been able to?

[Totamo]

Devaluing transformations is not on Super when the Cell saga had every saiyan get the legendary form that was so difficult to obtain and it introduced grade 2, grade 3 and full powered super saiyan but it all gets trumped by ss2, which did not get a name at the time.




You can say super needlessly introduce new forms but you cannot say they devalued them when the Cell saga did that and Buu saga made that even worse.

[Kataphrut]

You know what's sad? While I agree with many that Blue was the weak link and the series could have benefited most from keeping God and ditching it...at the same time, my primal monkey brain really likes the colour blue. God is a cool design, I like that he gets thinner like Beerus, but I think the contrast provided by Blue works really well. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole reason for it's existence was to get that blue-orange contrast that Hollywood films love so much against Golden Freeza back in Resurrection F. Since then we've had principle enemies in purple, pink, green and red, all of which contrast nicely with blue. Plus Blue Kaioken was amazing the first time we saw it.

So going by that primitive monkey thinking, my choice would be to just have Super Saiyan God but with blue hair as the default workhorse transformation of the series, including the thin look. Keep Kaioken, Rose, Berserk (don't need the regular Super Saiyan form for her though, just beefy and controlled gets the message across) and Ultra Instinct, replace Rage with Super Saiyan 3 and throw Sparkly Blue Vegeta into a big fucking skip.

[julianix]

The God and blue transformations are terrible.

Kioken is a great addition but not the way they did it. Should of been kioken on base form. Find a way to use it with goku black hair.

Vegeta could of developed his latest blue version.

Ssj3 should been around much longer.

Gold freeza is ugly af. Something else, anything else would of been good.

[SuperCyan2]

Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Rage, and Berserker Super Saiyan shouldn't exist. The latter two are just face palm-worthy, and I don't think I need to go into detail as to why they're terrible. Additionally, Vegeta shouldn't have been given Gohan's hidden potential, but that's another story.

Super Saiyan God, though, has not only been the most useless transformation, but also the most disappointing and horribly designed one in the franchise too. He got thinner and little bowties on his boots... I swear to god Toriyama just wanted to troll people with that. Furthermore, the way to access the form was cringe-worthy and the complete opposite of what it takes to reach any SSJ state. It was just bad.

What Super Saiyan God should have been was a form attained through a moment of desperation. Perhaps, Goku was failing at deflecting an energy ball thrown at the planet by Beerus, and all the other SSJs transmit their energy to him. Instead of a normal power-up, he gets crimson red hair in his SSJ form and the usual red SSJG aura. The kicker of this transformation would be that Goku cannot control his rage because, well, SSJ forms are formed through a strong emotions, so his entire battle with Beerus would be the latter sort of teaching him to maintain control. Goku fails, but Beerus spares him and the planet, per usual. THEN, once Goku gains control of the form through training with Whis, perhaps the transformation would alter: he'd have his regular SSJ hair, only with red highlights, red eyes, and a fire aura.

Orrrr...instead of the above, Super Saiyan Blue should have been Super Saiyan God from the start. Simple.

And yeah, power scaling has been absolutely awful in this series. SSJ3 Goku should not have been THAT far off Beerus.

This! I'm so friggin lost in the amount of transformations that Super has had so far that I just discard it.. I don't really care but it will affect the series' future.

P.S. Golden Freeza looks stupid as hell. The original final form of Freeza (non-100%) will always be my favorite.

[nato25]

Its more like what wouldnt I have done but here's mine.

- given ssj god more time to shine. I really like the form (maybe aside from the ribbons on the boots change unless they explain that in the new movie) but it was barely around all series. So no blue until they take on Black so they can have an even fight. Also focus on the stamina issues here and have them mastered by top.

- maybe have a few training episodes of people trying to learn new techniques. Goku and kaioken, vegeta and stamins issues on ssb, krillin and his new techniques etc.

- dont have gohan get his ultimate power back the way he did. That hair colour changing was ugly.

- have ssj3 gotenks be able to do at least something to vegeta.

- left trunks hair as it was.

-stick to the original rules of time travel that the manga established.

- left the potara fusion how it was. Have vegitos outdit be different to match correct clothes and colours. Could have had a lot of fun with vegito in slice of life episodes and thrn just wished to unfuse.

- go back to The future one time less.

- have trunks kill zamasu but not from some random transformation and boost. Have vegito distract him then trunks come in for the finish or something. Maybe have him successfully use mafuba.

" definitely get rid of the 28 planets line. Just explain that the trials theyve been through had made earths warriors the strongest. Maybe get one guy from somewhere else.

" make the tournament of power longer. Have goku and vegeta actually missing for episodes at a time so they can rest and have no crap stamina issues.

[Kefla]

With Super Saiyan Rage, I would’ve had Trunks go Super Saiyan 3 instead and call that it Super Saiyan 3 Rage.

[Asura]

I would have never made Super Saiyan Blue a thing. I would have instead had Super Saiyan God be a permanent transformation, but one that can only be activated for a short amount of time. Give it to both Goku and Vegeta, and let Vegeta master SSJ2 while Goku masters SSJ3. Maybe in the FT arc they learn to activate SSG permanently without any time limit.

Give Trunks his own transformation, but have it actually explained as to what it is and how it differs from the regular Super Saiyan tree. Let Black keep Rose, get rid of this dumb Royal Blue Vegeta shit that makes no sense, and DEFINITELY DEFINITELY DEFINITELY keep Ultra Instinct just as it is.

In terms of the U6 Saiyans, keep Cabba as he is with not knowing what Super Saiyan is in the U6 arc, and let him achieve Super Saiyan in the fight against Vegeta, but make it more intense and more of an achievement. Give Caulifla SSJ2 before we even meet her, that would really amp up the prodigy/genius angle without pissing too many people off by giving Caulifla undeserved transformations on screen. She can be U6's first Super Saiyan like Goku once was. Cabba wouldn't have any idea of who Caulifla is (aside from hearing stories about her) so him not knowing about Super Saiyan would make sense.

Some people might be pissed that she would have SSJ2 already, but it could be explained in a flashback that she already figured out SSJ, and she achieved SSJ2 while trying desperately to restrain Kale after she went Berserk in the past in a life-or-death battle. This would actually lead to character development and backstory for Kale and Caulifla and we can see why they're such good friends. Kale can still have this "Super Saiyan Berserk" form but don't make it look like Broly. Caulifla achieves SSJ3 in the tournament in a desperate, all-out fight against Goku (and not like a HEY OLD MAN TEACH ME SSJ3 type of thing, an actual battle) and we'd still get Kefla afterwards when Caulifla and Kale fail against Goku. Kefla's power scaling would now make sense since there is no SSB, meaning she can be above Buu arc Vegito's level, stronger than Goku's SSG, and have it be believable.

[Melee_Sovereign]

This is what I would have done.

Super Saiyan God would instead be named Saiyan God, and it would not be explained to be any type of Super Saiyan form (as its name implies). Instead, it's simply a form where a Saiyan obtains God Ki, meaning this firey aura could theoretically be obtained by any mortal (though, I'd probably change the look as well. The aura could look like anything, but there would be no change in hair or eye color so as to not imply it's a SSJ transformation). And I would get rid of the hand-holding ritual entirely. Instead, Goku being the martial arts genius that he is, would have a natural affinity to God ki after witnessing it in Beerus and Whis. He initially fails to utilize it at all, so he requests Beerus be patient and spends an hour in the RoSaT to try to learn what he's just witnessed on his own. He finally gets results, but he would still have a lot of trouble using it which is why it would run out fast. Later, as he trains with Whis, he masters it and eventually goes Blue. Except I wouldn't call that Blue.

Super Saiyan Blue would instead be called Super Saiyan God, and it would be a Saiyan God who goes Super Saiyan (which, it's kinda already explained this way). Kaioken combined with this, I wouldn't change. Super Saiyan Rose would simply be Black's version of Super Saiyan God (he'd already be a Saiyan God by default). With SSJRage, for one, I wouldn't call it Rage. I would explain that Trunks, along the lines of training with Vegeta in the RoSaT, partially obtained God ki. It would explain why his aura is partially blue and yellow. The name would hence simply be Semi-Saiyan God or something along those lines. Then when he's triggered by rage later, he obtains Super Saiyan 3 with partial God ki.

Ultra Instinct, I would leave unchanged.

Vegeta's Beyond Blue I'm not sure what I'd do with. I suppose I would do what a lot of people have thought of already and make it an offensive Ultra Instinct. Like perhaps he can't enter that form while standing still, but has to be on the offense for it to activate. Or maybe I would make it a form that heightens Vegeta's tactile mind. Since Whis pointed out that Goku is laid back and is more relaxed than Vegeta, it makes sense that Goku is more prone to learning Ultra Instinct. Maybe Vegeta should instead get something that heightens his state of mind. Vegeta likes to think, so maybe he gets a form where he thinks and processes information way faster. It can still be an offensive technique. So while Goku's UI is moving without thinking, Vegeta's special form would be heightened thinking. Basically, they're opposites, but grant similar capabilities.

Also, I probably would change the appearance. I think I'd give Vegeta's base form a special aura like how Goku has for Ultra Instinct.

For some other things, I'd probably have some other type of mortals obtain God-ki. Perhaps Piccolo so we can have a Namekian God. I've also always wanted Tien to have Kaioken so he could combine it with Tri-Beam. I think I'd have him master that.

Also, I'd have a Resurrection Cell arc where he obtains Golden Form, SSJG, Berserk, Ultra Instinct, Beyond Blue, Energy of Destruction, and Time-Skip (totally kidding about this).

[Fizzer]

In terms of the U6 Saiyans, keep Cabba as he is with not knowing what Super Saiyan is in the U6 arc, and let him achieve Super Saiyan in the fight against Vegeta, but make it more intense and more of an achievement. Give Caulifla SSJ2 before we even meet her, that would really amp up the prodigy/genius angle without pissing too many people off by giving Caulifla undeserved transformations on screen. She can be U6's first Super Saiyan like Goku once was. Cabba wouldn't have any idea of who Caulifla is (aside from hearing stories about her) so him not knowing about Super Saiyan would make sense.

Actually I've thought about this, with Caulifla being the Goku-equivalent first Super Saiyan. I'd do something similar, but instead of having Cabba go SSJ during a tournament match I'd basically switch him out of the U6 team for Caulifla. On the U6 team we have that universe's Freeza, and that universe's Super Saiyan, and in Universe 6 they're allies who work together as the universe's hero duo, as a mirror to their U7 counterparts being enemies.

Vegeta vs Caulifla is then Vegeta vs alt-Kakarot, and they can fight in base, then Super Saiyan, then finally Vegeta shows her his god form and wins. After the tournament Champa orders Caulifla to train some of the other Saiyans, and by the next tournament Caulifla, Cabba and Kale all have beyond-SSJ1 forms.

[JulieYBM]

I would've had Blue be Gokuu and Vegeta's only forms for the Golden Freeza arc up through the introduction of the Mastery of Selflessness. This would mean that Gokuu and Vegeta would have Super Saiyan God-level power in their base forms and not led to transformations becoming either useless or too plentiful. Then, while fighting Jiren I would have had Vegeta and Gokuu learn to contain the power of Blue within their bodies--something they had been working on since they first achieved the form. After learning to contain Blue, that form becomes absorbed into their normal form like their other transformations were and they can use Blue-level power without any silly transformations. From there, I would have had Gohan only have Super Saiyan as his transformation or maybe introduced Super Saiyan God for him as his only transformation during the Tournament of Power. I would have explained Super Saiyan Ikari as an incomplete, instinctively created transformation that Trunks took after experiencing Super Saiyan Blue up front after training with Vegeta. Kale's form is one I wouldn't have really bothered explaining, I don't think it's necessary. Super Saiyan Rose had a good enough explanation as it is, so I won't bother, either.

[TheOtherDude]

My biggest issue wasn’t the amount of transformations they had, but that they were just constantly spammed for any level of enemy. Everyone warranted SSB when SSJ/SSJ2 would’ve been just fine. Perfect example is during the recruiting arc Vegeta was getting angry at everyone concerning Bulla and he turned SSB... What? I thought SSJ was a transformation that was used from rage. Not SSB. They just wanted an excuse to transform into blue.

If the first time Goku turned into SSB in the tournament was when he first encountered Jiren, that moment would’ve been a lot more epic and worth seeing. I probably would’ve been shocked if I saw SSB/SSBKK wasn’t going to work on him. But we saw Goku use it on pretty much every episode so it took away the “wow Goku is getting really serious now” factor. It’s a transformation that I think should be used sparingly.

Kales Berserk transformation is kinda meh. If it turned out that the first SSG transformation long ago was used to counter a Berserk Broly like form, then I could deal with it. But kale had no reason to have that kind of strength increase from one transformation.

These are all things I know they would never change, but I can’t help but be frustrated about them.