Where will new stories go after Ultra Instinct?

[Lord Beerus]

Just create even stronger enemies for Goku to beat.

[emperior]

End of Z was basically about Goku reaching the end, being the best there is with naught but a challenge in any of his friends or family.

Then Uub comes and shows massive potential, reminding him of the days when he fought Majin Buu who used to be the most powerful being ever.

I think the best direction for future stories would be exploring Goku's dissatisfaction with basically being at the top of the mortal food chain, how he has lost his drive to keep getting stronger after basically getting the ultimate power, the Ultra Instinct. At this point, this would be ripe for seeding his desire to see the potential in others, namely Uub, someone he doesn't know who has this great potential.

All of his other friends, he's seen what they can do. But Uub? Uub is a wildcard, a HUMAN with the potential of Majin Buu. More importantly.... it's someone NEW. The story of the series has always been about Son Goku. Well, maybe future stories in the series should explore Son Goku finally realizing that his story is just about over; he doesn't have to be gone entirely, but it's time for new stories to take the stage.

I don't think this is what Toriyama, Toei, and Toyotaro have in mind, but one can hope, right?

That would actually be nice, if Goku is at the level of the Angels at the end of Z, that would make him among the strongest beings in the multiverse, and he would probably be less motivated considering the Angels have incredible fighting qualities but don't seem to like to fight and are completely neutra. Remember that Goku wants competitive battles and we don't know if Angels would ever give him more than some great sparring matches. Uub would help bring Goku the motivation to train his own rivals.

[MagmonKai]

To me the Angels aren't worth fighting. They have way too many reality warping powers to fight in a fair manner. Goku can only really do two things: Shoot Ki Blast, and Punch really hard. Ok three things, he can kick really hard. Not much else to his fighting style. He could still be killed, and he has no Hakai like powers in the anime.

[Jexulus]

I feel as though creating something like Ultra Instinct was a terrible idea to begin with; a transformation that puts the user in auto-pilot takes away agency from characters. The most interesting aspect of characters in fiction is the choices that they make, and this transformation overcomes all obstacles at the cost of completely taking choice out of the equation. The fact that it was introduced in a storyline that is a dead-end by its nature (characters can't scheme against or undermine Zeno because he's immortal and can instantly erase entire universes with no weakness or drawback, so the ToP can't go any other way than the tournament's straightforward premise) compounds the problem. In fact, it goes so far as to be a microcosm of this entire arc: it takes away agency from the character and severely hampers the development of compelling conflict.

I'm fully convinced that the best course of action would be to completely disregard/undo this entire arc, because it is now almost impossible to create a compelling antagonist or obstacle for Goku unless it has nothing to do with fighting. If the series is still pretending like it's going to lead into the End of Z, it kinda has to do this anyway because someone like Uub no longer matters in the context of where Goku is at the end of Super compared to after the defeat of Kid Buu. Super is so poorly written and too wrapped up in the affairs of the gods that the End of Z cannot possibly take place unless the events of the entire series are erased/disregarded and puts everyone back where they were before the EoZ timeskip in Z.

[SuperCyan2]

The best way would be for TOEI/Toriyama to disregard Super or at least all the nonsensical transformations and strip down to only Saiyan God and Saiyan Blue.

[HeroR]

To me the Angels aren't worth fighting. They have way too many reality warping powers to fight in a fair manner. Goku can only really do two things: Shoot Ki Blast, and Punch really hard. Ok three things, he can kick really hard. Not much else to his fighting style. He could still be killed, and he has no Hakai like powers in the anime.

He can teleport unlike the angels.

[Gligarman]

My favorite aspect of Ultra Instinct (or Key of Egoism) is the fact that it's not really a power up but a state of mind. I'd like to think if the story continued there'd be less emphasis on becoming physically stronger and more on just becoming better martial artists. This way we'd get to see lesser featured characters become a greater threat to their enemies.

[MagmonKai]

I feel as though creating something like Ultra Instinct was a terrible idea to begin with; a transformation that puts the user in auto-pilot takes away agency from characters. The most interesting aspect of characters in fiction is the choices that they make, and this transformation overcomes all obstacles at the cost of completely taking choice out of the equation. The fact that it was introduced in a storyline that is a dead-end by its nature (characters can't scheme against or undermine Zeno because he's immortal and can instantly erase entire universes with no weakness or drawback, so the ToP can't go any other way than the tournament's straightforward premise) compounds the problem. In fact, it goes so far as to be a microcosm of this entire arc: it takes away agency from the character and severely hampers the development of compelling conflict.

I'm fully convinced that the best course of action would be to completely disregard/undo this entire arc, because it is now almost impossible to create a compelling antagonist or obstacle for Goku unless it has nothing to do with fighting. If the series is still pretending like it's going to lead into the End of Z, it kinda has to do this anyway because someone like Uub no longer matters in the context of where Goku is at the end of Super compared to after the defeat of Kid Buu. Super is so poorly written and too wrapped up in the affairs of the gods that the End of Z cannot possibly take place unless the events of the entire series are erased/disregarded and puts everyone back where they were before the EoZ timeskip in Z.

What do you mean "takes away agency"? Do you mean urgency?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I feel as though creating something like Ultra Instinct was a terrible idea to begin with; a transformation that puts the user in auto-pilot takes away agency from characters. The most interesting aspect of characters in fiction is the choices that they make, and this transformation overcomes all obstacles at the cost of completely taking choice out of the equation. The fact that it was introduced in a storyline that is a dead-end by its nature (characters can't scheme against or undermine Zeno because he's immortal and can instantly erase entire universes with no weakness or drawback, so the ToP can't go any other way than the tournament's straightforward premise) compounds the problem. In fact, it goes so far as to be a microcosm of this entire arc: it takes away agency from the character and severely hampers the development of compelling conflict.

I'm fully convinced that the best course of action would be to completely disregard/undo this entire arc, because it is now almost impossible to create a compelling antagonist or obstacle for Goku unless it has nothing to do with fighting. If the series is still pretending like it's going to lead into the End of Z, it kinda has to do this anyway because someone like Uub no longer matters in the context of where Goku is at the end of Super compared to after the defeat of Kid Buu. Super is so poorly written and too wrapped up in the affairs of the gods that the End of Z cannot possibly take place unless the events of the entire series are erased/disregarded and puts everyone back where they were before the EoZ timeskip in Z.

What do you mean "takes away agency"? Do you mean urgency?

No, he means "agency", as in one's free will over his/her actions.

[Marlowe89]

End of Z was basically about Goku reaching the end, being the best there is with naught but a challenge in any of his friends or family.

Then Uub comes and shows massive potential, reminding him of the days when he fought Majin Buu who used to be the most powerful being ever.

I think the best direction for future stories would be exploring Goku's dissatisfaction with basically being at the top of the mortal food chain, how he has lost his drive to keep getting stronger after basically getting the ultimate power, the Ultra Instinct. At this point, this would be ripe for seeding his desire to see the potential in others, namely Uub, someone he doesn't know who has this great potential.

All of his other friends, he's seen what they can do. But Uub? Uub is a wildcard, a HUMAN with the potential of Majin Buu. More importantly.... it's someone NEW. The story of the series has always been about Son Goku. Well, maybe future stories in the series should explore Son Goku finally realizing that his story is just about over; he doesn't have to be gone entirely, but it's time for new stories to take the stage.

I don't think this is what Toriyama, Toei, and Toyotaro have in mind, but one can hope, right?

Truth be told, that's exactly where I'd like the next series to go if there is one. I've never been one to buy into the whole "This is as far as Goku can go!" sentiments until now -- the Super Saiyan forms were just another power up, but the advertising and hype surrounding Ultra Instinct really does make it seem as if this is his peak. At this point in Dragon Ball's continuity, it also makes the most sense thematically. As Super was originally advertised to bridge the gap between the Buu arc and EoZ, and as all this recent foreshadowing surrounding Uub seems like it could culminate in something beyond the manga's epilogue, it's arguably the next logical step in the overarching narrative. An actual story about the next generation of heroes with a human as the main protagonist would be a refreshing change of pace for the franchise to be certain.

If Toyotaro and Toriyama are seriously considering a direction like this, that would be fantastic.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

My favorite aspect of Ultra Instinct (or Key of Egoism) is the fact that it's not really a power up but a state of mind. I'd like to think if the story continued there'd be less emphasis on becoming physically stronger and more on just becoming better martial artists. This way we'd get to see lesser featured characters become a greater threat to their enemies.

Evey form of "ultra instinct" was a power up for Goku

In episode 110, after Goku emerges from the rubble with the Omen form, Whis or Berus (I forgot who) marvel over Goku's power and state "Goku has now managed to close the gap in power between Jiren"

And now with current episode 129 spoilers, the summary says that after Goku transforms "Goku's power sky rockets"

UI is both a form and a transformation for Goku.

Goku gets power boosts but its still about Goku's dodging, counterfighting, precision etc. Goku now has the power behind it all to land truly damaging blows

[ZenkaiBoosts]

I feel as though creating something like Ultra Instinct was a terrible idea to begin with; a transformation that puts the user in auto-pilot takes away agency from characters. The most interesting aspect of characters in fiction is the choices that they make, and this transformation overcomes all obstacles at the cost of completely taking choice out of the equation. The fact that it was introduced in a storyline that is a dead-end by its nature (characters can't scheme against or undermine Zeno because he's immortal and can instantly erase entire universes with no weakness or drawback, so the ToP can't go any other way than the tournament's straightforward premise) compounds the problem. In fact, it goes so far as to be a microcosm of this entire arc: it takes away agency from the character and severely hampers the development of compelling conflict.

I'm fully convinced that the best course of action would be to completely disregard/undo this entire arc, because it is now almost impossible to create a compelling antagonist or obstacle for Goku unless it has nothing to do with fighting. If the series is still pretending like it's going to lead into the End of Z, it kinda has to do this anyway because someone like Uub no longer matters in the context of where Goku is at the end of Super compared to after the defeat of Kid Buu. Super is so poorly written and too wrapped up in the affairs of the gods that the End of Z cannot possibly take place unless the events of the entire series are erased/disregarded and puts everyone back where they were before the EoZ timeskip in Z.

Think of it in terms of real life combat sports (MMA, boxing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing etc)

Fighters drill repetition to create "muscle memory" so that in the actual fight itself, they do what they trained, on instinct, without thinking much about it

Does that mean fighters arent "making choices" or that there is never "agencey?"

Of course not. Thats why people pay to see fights. 2 trained killers compete against each other to see whos better. People will still even pay to see MISS-matches because the spectacle of a fight is still by itself always intriguing/exciting

In a fight when ever the fighter instinctually reacts, it's a choice that they are making for what they think is best for that situation. It's just that they're not wasting time overly thinking about what choice to make, because they've drilled it all so many times in the gym, and KNOW WHAT to react with in a matter of split seconds

Its like Conor McGregor whos always reacting and executing much faster then his opponents, because Conor is a master of counter punching and knows instinctually what to do, how to read his opponents, set them up, react quicker with less thinking, and just operate on another level. Goku is a martial arts master whos loose and fluid and whos been training all his life. That SHOULD come natural to Goku. Goku is like Bruce Lee too.

The whole concept behind UI is brilliant btw, because its so much like real life. A lot of fighters will tell you, in a fight they simply react without thinking much and or "get in the zone"

Think about how awesome it would be in the future for Goku to be fighting someone else with UI (whos also strong)

What if the next major villian when Super returns also has UI?

Lets have some fun with some wild speculations now

What if the evil doer of Jiren's universe has UI and thats why Jiren still has yet to beat him?

The fact that we can speclulate like this shows that theres always ways to continue

Witnessing the legendary Son Goku hit his new mastered UI transformation is only the begining

Look at all the universes out there in Dragon Ball lore now due to Super.

Theres no telling who else is out there, how far Goku can truly test mastered UI against live threats, and or against others with UI who will push Goku and force Goku to continue to fine tune his mastered UI form

We have only now just began to scratch the surface: )

Goku has only just barely now hit his legendary most powerful form. We need to see it in consistent action now being tested against - or simply used on, a variety of fighters or enemies (threats)

I really do think the plan is for Toei/Toriyama to re-write over GT with official canon now when Super returns. Thats what i think the return of Super will be

GT was such a terrible terrible series

Toei/Toriyama will do Dragon Ball justice with stories AFTER the end of Z that are great and feel like classic DBZ IMO


Just think about the possibilites

-Angels vs demons arc

-Legendary son Goku and Jiren team up to fight the evil doer of universe 11

-Exploring all the other universes. Who knows what evil threats could reveal themselfes

-A reveal that the omni kings are simply nothing but a god of destruction for the multi verse (hence why they cant create) and that there are others who far supercede and out rank the omni kings

-Exploring the 5 strongest in the multi verse

-Maybe theres even another muti verse

-More side stories with secondary characters involved

-Gohan finaly playing a greater role

Etc etc etc

Lots more stories to tell


Lots more moments to have with Son Goku's final and most powerful form ever

UI mastered Goku should TOOL Jiren, so that we can look forward to greater antagonists for Goku to use mastered UI on

[ZenkaiBoosts]

End of Z was basically about Goku reaching the end, being the best there is with naught but a challenge in any of his friends or family.

Then Uub comes and shows massive potential, reminding him of the days when he fought Majin Buu who used to be the most powerful being ever.

I think the best direction for future stories would be exploring Goku's dissatisfaction with basically being at the top of the mortal food chain, how he has lost his drive to keep getting stronger after basically getting the ultimate power, the Ultra Instinct. At this point, this would be ripe for seeding his desire to see the potential in others, namely Uub, someone he doesn't know who has this great potential.

All of his other friends, he's seen what they can do. But Uub? Uub is a wildcard, a HUMAN with the potential of Majin Buu. More importantly.... it's someone NEW. The story of the series has always been about Son Goku. Well, maybe future stories in the series should explore Son Goku finally realizing that his story is just about over; he doesn't have to be gone entirely, but it's time for new stories to take the stage.

I don't think this is what Toriyama, Toei, and Toyotaro have in mind, but one can hope, right?

Truth be told, that's exactly where I'd like the next series to go if there is one. I've never been one to buy into the whole "This is as far as Goku can go!" sentiments until now -- the Super Saiyan forms were just another power up, but the advertising and hype surrounding Ultra Instinct really does make it seem as if this is his peak. At this point in Dragon Ball's continuity, it also makes the most sense thematically. As Super was originally advertised to bridge the gap between the Buu arc and EoZ, and as all this recent foreshadowing surrounding Uub seems like it could culminate in something beyond the manga's epilogue, it's arguably the next logical step in the overarching narrative. An actual story about the next generation of heroes with a human as the main protagonist would be a refreshing change of pace for the franchise to be certain.

If Toyotaro and Toriyama are seriously considering a direction like this, that would be fantastic.

Toyotaro is simply responsible for the manga adaption of Super

Toyotaro didnt invent Dragon Ball. He doesnt do production for the anime. Toyotaro is literally irrelevant to the future of Dragon Ball anime. Its all Toriyama and Toei.

Toyotaro no longer has any say

I personally would be very very disappointed if Toyotaro does the manga for the next Dragon Ball series

Toyotaro is such a terrible story teller IMO. His manga adaption of Super is sooo boring compared to the anime and lacks all the charm, character moments, emotion, and excitment of the Toei/Toriyama anime

Toyotaro's manga really does feel like a forgettable afterthought to me

Yeah, Toyotaro's manga has more consistent power scaling, but Toyotaro is so concerned with that and has such a fear of being divisive, that he never takes any risks and always lacks charm, character moments, emotion, and identity

Forgettable is literally the PERFECT word to describe Toyotaro and his manga of the Toei/Toriyama anime IMO.

This is all that needs to be said, were Toriyama's mangas loved because they had incredibly analytical mathematical logical power scaling?

Toyotaro was given the wrong role IMO

Toyotaro should be drawing the art and thats it

IF anything, Toshio should become in charge of the manga. Toshio actually understands what made Dragon Ball Z so special, gets all the characters, truly understands Toriyama, and is a fantastic writer


I would give anything to have Toshio do the manga

Many people consider Super episodes 116, 121, and 128 some of the best episodes ever....all those episodes felt like classic DBZ....Toshio wrote them all


Please oh please Toei/Toriyama, please give the role to Toshio... and simply put Toyotaro on as an artist on the anime and nothing more

Toyotaro draws good art, I give him that...but thats about it...Toyotaro should be kept far away from anything resembling story/story boarding/directing/story telling/characters/plot etc


All though in second thought. Toshio is such a fantastic writer ot would be a huge loss for the anime to loss Toshio

I simply hope Toshio gets some kind of promotion and a greater role within Toei.

Just please dont give Toyotaro the manga again

[ZenkaiBoosts]

I feel as though creating something like Ultra Instinct was a terrible idea to begin with; a transformation that puts the user in auto-pilot takes away agency from characters. The most interesting aspect of characters in fiction is the choices that they make, and this transformation overcomes all obstacles at the cost of completely taking choice out of the equation. The fact that it was introduced in a storyline that is a dead-end by its nature (characters can't scheme against or undermine Zeno because he's immortal and can instantly erase entire universes with no weakness or drawback, so the ToP can't go any other way than the tournament's straightforward premise) compounds the problem. In fact, it goes so far as to be a microcosm of this entire arc: it takes away agency from the character and severely hampers the development of compelling conflict.

I'm fully convinced that the best course of action would be to completely disregard/undo this entire arc, because it is now almost impossible to create a compelling antagonist or obstacle for Goku unless it has nothing to do with fighting. If the series is still pretending like it's going to lead into the End of Z, it kinda has to do this anyway because someone like Uub no longer matters in the context of where Goku is at the end of Super compared to after the defeat of Kid Buu. Super is so poorly written and too wrapped up in the affairs of the gods that the End of Z cannot possibly take place unless the events of the entire series are erased/disregarded and puts everyone back where they were before the EoZ timeskip in Z.

Think of it in terms of real life combat sports (MMA, boxing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing etc)

Fighters drill repetition to create "muscle memory" so that in the actual fight itself, they do what they trained, on instinct, without thinking much about it

Does that mean fighters arent "making choices" or that there is never "agencey?"

Of course not. Thats why people pay to see fights. 2 trained killers compete against each other to see whos better. People will still even pay to see MISS-matches because the spectacle of a fight is still by itself always intriguing/exciting

In a fight when ever the fighter instinctually reacts, it's a choice that they are making for what they think is best for that situation. It's just that they're not wasting time overly thinking about what choice to make, because they've drilled it all so many times in the gym, and KNOW WHAT to react with in a matter of split seconds

Its like Conor McGregor whos always reacting and executing much faster then his opponents, because Conor is a master of counter punching and knows instinctually what to do, how to read his opponents, set them up, react quicker with less thinking, and just operate on another level. Goku is a martial arts master whos loose and fluid and whos been training all his life. That SHOULD come natural to Goku. Goku is like Bruce Lee too.

The whole concept behind UI is brilliant btw, because its so much like real life. A lot of fighters will tell you, in a fight they simply react without thinking much and or "get in the zone"

Think about how awesome it would be in the future for Goku to be fighting someone else with UI (whos also strong)

What if the next major villian when Super returns also has UI?

Lets have some fun with some wild speculations now

What if the evil doer of Jiren's universe has UI and thats why Jiren still has yet to beat him?

The fact that we can speclulate like this shows that theres always ways to continue

Witnessing the legendary Son Goku hit his new mastered UI transformation is only the begining

Look at all the universes out there in Dragon Ball lore now due to Super.

Theres no telling who else is out there, how far Goku can truly test mastered UI against live threats, and or against others with UI who will push Goku and force Goku to continue to fine tune his mastered UI form

We have only now just began to scratch the surface: )

Goku has only just barely now hit his legendary most powerful form. We need to see it in consistent action now being tested against - or simply used on, a variety of fighters or enemies (threats)

I really do think the plan is for Toei/Toriyama to re-write over GT with official canon now when Super returns. Thats what i think the return of Super will be

GT was such a terrible terrible series

Toei/Toriyama will do Dragon Ball justice with stories AFTER the end of Z that are great and feel like classic DBZ IMO


Just think about the possibilites

-Angels vs demons arc

-Legendary son Goku and Jiren team up to fight the evil doer of universe 11

-Exploring all the other universes. Who knows what evil threats could reveal themselfes

-A reveal that the omni kings are simply nothing but a god of destruction for the multi verse (hence why they cant create) and that there are others who far supercede and out rank the omni kings

-Exploring the 5 strongest in the multi verse

-Maybe theres even another muti verse

-More side stories with secondary characters involved

-Gohan finaly playing a greater role

Etc etc etc

Lots more stories to tell


Lots more moments to have with Son Goku's final and most powerful form ever

UI mastered Goku should TOOL Jiren, so that we can look forward to greater antagonists for Goku to use mastered UI on

I no longer have the option to edit that post

So I just wanted to add it this to it

Super might not even end at the end of Z

In Z there was a 10 year time skip to the end of Z

The end of Super is still likely some years away from the end of Z

Why would they do another time skip to a time skip?

What if the return of the next Dragon Ball series goes into the time period from after Super until the end of Z?

That allows Dragon Ball to be extended...and then they can do arcs for after the end of Z that replace GT

Imagine a major arc against rouge angles lead by the GP down the line? The greatest threat in Dragon Ball history

There's SO MUCH Toriyama/Toei can still do

[Neon Z]

I'm fully convinced that the best course of action would be to completely disregard/undo this entire arc, because it is now almost impossible to create a compelling antagonist or obstacle for Goku unless it has nothing to do with fighting. If the series is still pretending like it's going to lead into the End of Z, it kinda has to do this anyway because someone like Uub no longer matters in the context of where Goku is at the end of Super compared to after the defeat of Kid Buu. Super is so poorly written and too wrapped up in the affairs of the gods that the End of Z cannot possibly take place unless the events of the entire series are erased/disregarded and puts everyone back where they were before the EoZ timeskip in Z.

Super has shown pretty consistently that having a high base power can lead to amazing growth, so under that premise a trained Uub still could be relevant. Ultra Instinct also isn't a Super Saiyan form, so he could presumably be trained to acquire it too, breaking the issue of "no transformation for humans".

Regarding future antagonists, I'd guess any future villain just will have UI too, effectively cancelling the ability since both will be moving in a "perfect" way, so it goes back to raw power and techniques vs raw power and techniques, exactly like before. Or the villain can be just so powerful that even perfect movements aren't enough to dodge their attacks.