Toriyama's UI design.

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:36 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote: Why is it like clockwork when people don't like something in DBS they attribute it to "wanting to sell toys"? Everything in DBS has been a creative decision first and foremost.
I just now saw this post since I haven’t been using Kanzenshuu for the past few days. Anyway, there’s no need to be so defensive. I was just making an observation based on the fact that we’re being told about this new silver haired look in the form of games and merchandise, before it even appears in the show. I don’t really see why giving Goku a new hair color really qualifies as a “creative decision”.
Last edited by WittyUsername on Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by HeroR » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:44 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:My problem with the UI design is that it seems unnecessary. The black haired look for UI was perfectly fine in its simplicity, but giving Goku silver hair just seems like a decision that was made in order to sell toys.
Why is it like clockwork when people don't like something in DBS they attribute it to "wanting to sell toys"? Everything in DBS has been a creative decision first and foremost.

I just now saw this post since I haven’t been using Kanzenshuu for the past few days. Anyway, there’s no need to be so defensive. I was just making an observation based on the fact that we’re being told about this new silver haired look in the form of games and merchandise, before it even appears in the show. I don’t really see why giving Goku a new hair color really qualifies as a “creative decision”.

It is a creative decision since the black haired form has been called Omen since its creation and the show itself hinted Omen was the true form of UI.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Feb 23, 2018 6:56 pm

HeroR wrote:

It is a creative decision since the black haired form has been called Omen since its creation and the show itself hinted Omen was the true form of UI.
I still don’t think they needed another physical change in order to convey his mastery over it. It just feels like with the exception of the U6 arc, we’re constantly being given new transformations.

Anyway, the fact that we’re seeing this new look for the first time in the form of video games and merchandise just makes it hard to believe that the decision to give Goku a new form wasn’t at least partially a financial decision.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by HeroR » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:00 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
I still don’t think they needed another physical change in order to convey his mastery over it. It just feels like with the exception of the U6 arc, we’re constantly being given new transformations.

Anyway, the fact that we’re seeing this new look for the first time in the form of video games and merchandise just makes it hard to believe that the decision to give Goku a new form wasn’t at least partially a financial decision.
Omen didn’t change anything in Goku besides his eyes and making his hair lift a little. Also, almost none of these new form except Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and Rose get any merch.

Everything in media exist to make money. That doesn’t mean Goku’s new form wasn’t made to be creative and they easily saw it would make Tom of money.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

User avatar
Baggie_Saiyan
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 10283
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:22 pm
Location: Atlantis.

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:01 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
HeroR wrote:

It is a creative decision since the black haired form has been called Omen since its creation and the show itself hinted Omen was the true form of UI.
I still don’t think they needed another physical change in order to convey his mastery over it. It just feels like with the exception of the U6 arc, we’re constantly being given new transformations.

Anyway, the fact that we’re seeing this new look for the first time in the form of video games and merchandise just makes it hard to believe that the decision to give Goku a new form wasn’t at least partially a financial decision.
The show is literally ending in March with UI in at most 3 episodes so they have to have leg up otherwise it's self defeat really.

WittyUsername
I Live Here
Posts: 4170
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:09 am
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:03 pm

HeroR wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
I still don’t think they needed another physical change in order to convey his mastery over it. It just feels like with the exception of the U6 arc, we’re constantly being given new transformations.

Anyway, the fact that we’re seeing this new look for the first time in the form of video games and merchandise just makes it hard to believe that the decision to give Goku a new form wasn’t at least partially a financial decision.
Omen didn’t change anything in Goku besides his eyes and making his hair lift a little.
Did they really need to do anything more than that? From the way it’s been described, UI doesn’t even seem like it’s technically supposed to be a transformation.

HeroR
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8306
Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:28 pm

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by HeroR » Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:27 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
HeroR wrote:
WittyUsername wrote:
I still don’t think they needed another physical change in order to convey his mastery over it. It just feels like with the exception of the U6 arc, we’re constantly being given new transformations.

Anyway, the fact that we’re seeing this new look for the first time in the form of video games and merchandise just makes it hard to believe that the decision to give Goku a new form wasn’t at least partially a financial decision.
Omen didn’t change anything in Goku besides his eyes and making his hair lift a little.
Did they really need to do anything more than that? From the way it’s been described, UI doesn’t even seem like it’s technically supposed to be a transformation.
UI has been called a transformation since its conception, at least for Goku.

For the lack of better words, Goku got UI through the form, not that the form is UI.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

User avatar
Logania
Regular
Posts: 593
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:47 am

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by Logania » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:54 am

I'm glad the anime and other things like video games are using Yamamuro's design of Ultra Instinct. Even though I'm not too fond of the silver hair and eyes as I feel the colors don't work well off Goku' s outfit, it at least has a bit of difference in his hair to give the form it's own feel from base form.

I'm not too fond of just slamming "recolor" with the new forms in Super but honestly I have to just call it this, and it's outright lazy that Toriyama basically recolored Super Saiyan God which was already pushing it a bit. Besides the eyes being a bit more narrow isn't the design art the exact same art as his Super Saiyan God design? Kinda further shows the laziness in my opinion.

Image

Image
"I can't increase my ability through some kind of noisy transformation the way Frost and you Saiyans do. If I wanna become more lethal, I don't have the luxury of cutting corners, I just have to do it the old-fashioned way.

Combat is craft. What matters most is not raw power, but the skill by which you hone it."

User avatar
Firebolt
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:40 am

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by Firebolt » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:06 am

My problem with Toriyama's design is that it feels extremely lazy. Toei came up with a beautiful and creative design for Ultra Instinct Omen, but we're stuck with Toriyama's design for the perfected version because he's the original creator.

ZenkaiBoosts
Banned
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:18 pm

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:52 am

Logania wrote:I'm glad the anime and other things like video games are using Yamamuro's design of Ultra Instinct. Even though I'm not too fond of the silver hair and eyes as I feel the colors don't work well off Goku' s outfit, it at least has a bit of difference in his hair to give the form it's own feel from base form.

I'm not too fond of just slamming "recolor" with the new forms in Super but honestly I have to just call it this, and it's outright lazy that Toriyama basically recolored Super Saiyan God which was already pushing it a bit. Besides the eyes being a bit more narrow isn't the design art the exact same art as his Super Saiyan God design? Kinda further shows the laziness in my opinion.

Image

Image
Goku's mastered UI form is going to look mind blowing in the anime

Image

I'm so glad it's Yamamuro's rendition

Toriyama completely dropped the ball when it comes to MUI Goku. I never thought the day would come where I would be calling Toriyama lazy and uninspired.

User avatar
GodVegetto91
Banned
Posts: 2906
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:15 am

I like Toriyama’s version much better, especially Goku’s hair! Yamamuro’s is ugly. What’s more guys, these character arts of SSJ God and UI are not the same, take a closer look at their faces and you’ll see the difference. In fact UI Goku’s face looks way more identical to SSJ Blue Goku’s character design by Toriyama when it first came out for the Resurrection F Movie!

User avatar
Logania
Regular
Posts: 593
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:47 am

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by Logania » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:34 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:What’s more guys, these character arts of SSJ God and UI are not the same, take a closer look at their faces and you’ll see the difference. In fact UI Goku’s face looks way more identical to SSJ Blue Goku’s character design by Toriyama when it first came out for the Resurrection F Movie!
I pointed out that the eyes are different, which makes sense as it fits his overall demeanor in Ultra Instinct,
but everything else in the 2 pieces of art are the same in every way. All the lines and shading for the details in the hair, clothes and body are the exact same. Even the same boots with the red... (rope? ribbon? I don't know what to call it :? ) is present in the Ultra Instinct artwork which isn't there in the anime or other media versions of the form and is only a feature of Super Saiyan God as well as his slimmer physique.
"I can't increase my ability through some kind of noisy transformation the way Frost and you Saiyans do. If I wanna become more lethal, I don't have the luxury of cutting corners, I just have to do it the old-fashioned way.

Combat is craft. What matters most is not raw power, but the skill by which you hone it."

User avatar
GodVegetto91
Banned
Posts: 2906
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:31 am

Logania wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:What’s more guys, these character arts of SSJ God and UI are not the same, take a closer look at their faces and you’ll see the difference. In fact UI Goku’s face looks way more identical to SSJ Blue Goku’s character design by Toriyama when it first came out for the Resurrection F Movie!
I pointed out that the eyes are different, which makes sense as it fits his overall demeanor in Ultra Instinct,
but everything else in the 2 pieces of art are the same in every way. All the lines and shading for the details in the hair, clothes and body are the exact same. Even the same boots with the red... (rope? ribbon? I don't know what to call it :? ) is present in the Ultra Instinct artwork which isn't there in the anime or other media versions of the form and is only a feature of Super Saiyan God as well as his slimmer physique.
Well hey, at least there is a change! It’s so much better than nothing. His face is what’s most important and Toriyama clearly drew that so he’s not as lazy as people might think! Lol

I’m satisfied with that small change. If there wasn’t any change at all and it was just a recolored ripoff of the previous SSG version than i would be dissapointed indeed.

User avatar
sintzu
Banned
Posts: 13583
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:41 pm

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by sintzu » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:07 am

Firebolt wrote:My problem with Toriyama's design is that it feels extremely lazy. Toei came up with a beautiful and creative design for Ultra Instinct Omen, but we're stuck with Toriyama's design for the perfected version because he's the original creator.
Toriyama is working with them so whatever we get is a collaborative effort on all sides. Toriyama said back in BOG that he had Goku fall back into Ssj in the final fight against Beerus because he wanted to focus on Goku's base and Ssj1 forms. Less than a year after that interview we got the Blue form and everything else so chances are he was told they'd be missing out on a lot of $$$ if they stuck to his plan so if anyone's to be blamed for this white form it's them as they're the ones most likey to have requested it.

Speaking of the white form, if they somehow connect and continue GT, they can use UI to get a Ssj5 like form but just call it UISSJ4.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.

User avatar
Logania
Regular
Posts: 593
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:47 am

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by Logania » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:30 am

sintzu wrote: Speaking of the white form, if they somehow connect and continue GT, they can use UI to get a Ssj5 like form but just call it UISSJ4.
I'm sure Toyotarou would love to do that, bringing his old fan fiction design come full circle into the manga. His dream would finally come true :D
"I can't increase my ability through some kind of noisy transformation the way Frost and you Saiyans do. If I wanna become more lethal, I don't have the luxury of cutting corners, I just have to do it the old-fashioned way.

Combat is craft. What matters most is not raw power, but the skill by which you hone it."

Timetraveller
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 224
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2017 3:53 am

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by Timetraveller » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:34 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Logania wrote:
GodVegetto91 wrote:What’s more guys, these character arts of SSJ God and UI are not the same, take a closer look at their faces and you’ll see the difference. In fact UI Goku’s face looks way more identical to SSJ Blue Goku’s character design by Toriyama when it first came out for the Resurrection F Movie!
I pointed out that the eyes are different, which makes sense as it fits his overall demeanor in Ultra Instinct,
but everything else in the 2 pieces of art are the same in every way. All the lines and shading for the details in the hair, clothes and body are the exact same. Even the same boots with the red... (rope? ribbon? I don't know what to call it :? ) is present in the Ultra Instinct artwork which isn't there in the anime or other media versions of the form and is only a feature of Super Saiyan God as well as his slimmer physique.
Well hey, at least there is a change! It’s so much better than nothing. His face is what’s most important and Toriyama clearly drew that so he’s not as lazy as people might think! Lol

I’m satisfied with that small change. If there wasn’t any change at all and it was just a recolored ripoff of the previous SSG version than i would be dissapointed indeed.
This is where we're at now? Slightly changing the eyes passes for creativity and people only being disappointed if Toriyama uses the exact same design.

When are we going to hold Toriyama to higher standards? He's better than this. Heck, most fan artists are more creative than this.

Neon Z
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1145
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:34 am

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by Neon Z » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:45 am

Hawk9211 wrote:It seems a lot of people are mad about the new design and think he has regressed.

But,are we forgetting about previous and how simple were the design's of ssj1,grades and ssj2.They even make a joke about no difference between ssj1 and ssj2.
The issue is that the art itself is clearly just a redraw of his SSG one. Same pose, same expression, same physique. It isn't just literally a recolored drawing since the lines are a bit difference, but it's still really lazy for the image drawing of Goku's final form in the current series.

User avatar
Hawk9211
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 812
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:23 am

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by Hawk9211 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:59 am

Neon Z wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote:It seems a lot of people are mad about the new design and think he has regressed.

But,are we forgetting about previous and how simple were the design's of ssj1,grades and ssj2.They even make a joke about no difference between ssj1 and ssj2.
The issue is that the art itself is clearly just a redraw of his SSG one. Same pose, same expression, same physique. It isn't just literally a recolored drawing since the lines are a bit difference, but it's still really lazy for the image drawing of Goku's final form in the current series.
But,that's toriyama,he has a habit of reusing designs gohan resembles yamcha more than goku.His one shot lady red has a rapist that resembles world tournament announcement.Along with other reuses.
Why power levels are important?
The genre and roots of dragon ball

User avatar
Rebel Instinct
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:22 pm

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by Rebel Instinct » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:23 am

Timetraveller wrote:This is where we're at now? Slightly changing the eyes passes for creativity and people only being disappointed if Toriyama uses the exact same design.

When are we going to hold Toriyama to higher standards? He's better than this. Heck, most fan artists are more creative than this.
This is something that I've found rather troubling as well. There's an unexpectedly large portion of the community who'd apparently rather continuously lower their standards to meet DBS than hold the series up to any kind of bar (which isn't to say that OP is one of them, since I've both read and agreed with many of their criticisms, just an observation). I can't statistically show how big this subset of the fandom is and I doubt it's a majority, but anecdotally, I've seen a surprising amount of people display this approach to the series. If I had a dollar for every time I heard someone say, "Just turn your brain off and enjoy the ride." I'd be sitting on quite a fat stack.
Last edited by Rebel Instinct on Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
The post-Super fandom has ruined my love for Dragon Ball.

User avatar
CaroKami
Newbie
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:22 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Toriyama's UI design.

Post by CaroKami » Sat Feb 24, 2018 10:53 am

Okay, people think it's an incredibly lazy design. How would you guys have done it? Serious question.

Changing the hair color works, it sells. I'll admit, when I first saw this new form, I thought it was simply a Super Saiyan God recolor, and it probably is, but again, it sells. Kids don't have a problem with this.

Post Reply