Vegeta's development in Super

[Kinokima]

It's the same, the only difference is that z was more subtle about it and super is more in your face about it . Z does it better because we are read between the lines , because of his previous act of sacrificing himself that he is not fighting for just himself but everyone he cares about. Vegeta done right is when his signs of affection and caring for someone isn't explicitly or repeatedly stated.

I'm fine with him not going through major changes just don't pretend like it's a big development.

First of all I want to say thanks for engaging with me in an intelligent and friendly way. I don’t always get that from these boards and I appreciate when I do.

I am not saying Vegeta didn’t love his family in the Buu saga. The Buu saga was Vegeta coming to terms with that love & in the end it was stronger than the Majin power reawakening the evil in his heart. Also when he came back to life he obviously fought to protect Earth with Goku. The Buu saga was when Vegeta fully became a hero. This is obviously the end of Vegeta’s major character development. I don’t really think he needs to have another drastic change after this point.

In Super I just see a Vegeta who has fully accepted who he is. While Vegeta is still not always open with his feelings he has fully embraced his role as father, husband, and protector of Earth.

There are tons of moments I never thought I’d get from Vegeta.

* Him going on a vacation with his family. Okay it wasn’t his favorite thing to do but he still did it.

* Staying with Bulma and not training while she was pregnant

* Holding his baby daughter and thinking of names for her
Oh changing her diaper.

* Him giving words of encouragement to Future Trunks

* Also I think Vegeta outright saying he is fighting for his family, Cabba etc while definitely not subtle is a different Vegeta because he is outright embracing and saying these are the things that make me strong when before his view was that attachments made you weak.

* Him crying in the last episode because he couldn’t keep a promise to others is also I think a great contrast to him crying in the Freeza saga because he failed himself.

I am not saying any of these things are major changes for Vegeta like what happened to him in Z. They are more small changes that are in line with the path he ultimately chose in Z .

One of the reasons toriyama wrote piccolo and gohan's mentor student relationship was to develop piccolo's character and vice versa for gohan, the reason for the vegeta cabba mentor student relationship is to further develop the vegeta character the sole difference between these parallel events is that nobody gives a shit about cabba . Because he is a stranger to us with little to no history or relation to vegeta or the rest of the cast, he just posses his racial heritage, that's it .

Gohan’s relationship with Piccolo changed them both. I see Vegeta’s relationship with Cabba more to show us how Vegeta has already changed.

Anyways I am not going to argue that Cabba is a well developed character compared to Gohan and Piccolo. He’s a recurring character. Not every character has to be well developed though and who knows maybe over time we will see more of Cabba.

To me Cabba is more symbolic of giving Vegeta another chance with a new Saiyajin race. I honestly think Vegeta is proud that there is a race of noble yet still strong Saiyajins. Having one look up to him would also make Vegeta feel proud. And for him the U6 Saiyajins are a second chance that he lost with his own planet.

But anyways yes ultimately it’s more about Vegeta’s character than Cabba.

As for their relationship being developed quickly sure it was but I feel that is par for the course. I mean what about Kuririn developing feelings for 18 because she kissed him once.

It's possible , like I said before dragonball is filled with contradictions , we choose to believe the scenes we like the most at the same time as I said earlier the vegeta character done right is subtle , he doesn't explicitly state his affections which makes moments where he does show his vulnerabilities , insecurities, respect and admiration that much more impactful. So you're right reading between the lines he could still care about his race, but at the same same time he showed no interest in reeving raditz because he was weak, he killed nappa for losing a fight, nappa is someone that vegeta has known for 15+ years by now and he discarded him like a used tissue.

Well I think deep down Vegeta did care about what happened to his race but didn’t fully understand those feelings himself. That doesn’t necessarily mean I think he had any real affection or love for his people. I just think deep down he did feel a sense of loss. Probably one that even he himself didn’t fully realize.

As for Nappa and Raditz I also don’t think there was any affection between them. They were servants to him. He was the prince and more importantly he was the strongest. It was a relationship based on power and fear not true affection. And in Freeza’s army it was no different either. Your rank was based on strength.

Compare his relationship to Bulma & Trunks who never show fear to him. Bulma’s isn’t afraid to order him
around and Trunks shows true admiration for him (talking about Chibi Trunks here). He certainly never had that type of relationship before.

I don't believe that murder and genocide was just a human concept of morality in the dragonball universe, we saw many different cultures that either knew murder was wrong or knew it was wrong and didn't care.

You are absolutely right. The Nameks for example were a peaceful and loving race.

But the Saiyajins were not portrayed this way (except in a few rare exceptions) . I think in Toriyama’s notes he even said the concept of family was not one the Saiyajins really had. And then of course Vegeta went to Freeza as a child.

Anyways I used humanity as it seemed the best word to encompass what I meant. To me the concept of humanity was alien to Vegeta until he started to live on Earth.

2. If you ignore(which I choose to do)the super scene where kid vegeta is seen in a flashback worried about his dad bowing to beerus and making b line charge for beerus, I can agree with the idea that loveing and caring were things he never experienced

I don’t necessarily see this as proof of love though more Vegeta being shocked that his strong father was being attacked by someone. Although I believe at one point it was said that Vegeta even as a kid even surpassed his father. So yeah there are definitely contradictions lol

But even if Vegeta may of had feelings of love for his father were those feelings returned and would he have understood them? And again shortly after he would be taken in by Freeza.

[GreatSaiyaJeff]

Unlike Goku who kind of regressed a bit in character in Super, Vegeta is treated with respect. He has shown to be a good father and while still has his fits of anger, he has grown softer. Like Cabba or Future Trunks, he'll encourage them his own way. I'm a little disappointed that we may not see him visit planet Sadala at the end of Super, just because I feel like it would be nice for Vegeta to see what saiyans would have been like if Freeza didn't Lord over them.

[precita]

I still don't like how rude and arrogant Vegeta still is in Super, I thought his character moved on passed this by the end of the Buu arc. Refusing to give Goku energy from the Spirit Bomb? Pretending not to want to hold Bra immediately after she was born? Still acting like a jerk to Goku or Krillin sometimes, etc?

The good stuff with him is his interactions with future Trunks and Cabba, but the rest...eh. Sometimes I feel like they're re-treading the same ground they already did in the Buu arc.

[Kinokima]

I still don't like how rude and arrogant Vegeta still is in Super, I thought his character moved on passed this by the end of the Buu arc. Refusing to give Goku energy from the Spirit Bomb? Pretending not to want to hold Bra immediately after she was born? Still acting like a jerk to Goku or Krillin sometimes, etc?

The good stuff with him is his interactions with future Trunks and Cabba, but the rest...eh. Sometimes I feel like they're re-treading the same ground they already did in the Buu arc.

The spirit bomb scene was definitely poorly written the rest is Vegeta being a Tsundere. That’s never going to change. It’s not about character development it’s a personality trait that is actually quite popular in Japan. On a poll in Japan Vegeta actually ranked as the top male
Tsundere. Basically it’s a character who acts like a Jerk Tsun and pretends they don’t care but really does and their dere side will come out. Vegeta has a very strong Tsun side though lol

If you don’t want to use tropes so Vegeta cares but just isn’t always comfortable showing how he truly feels.

The Bra scene is a perfect example. He wanted to hold her but was embarrassed to ask so he just grunted a bit and Bulma knew exactly what he wanted. I actually thought that scene was really sweet because it showed that Bulma understands Vegeta without him having to say exactly what he feels.


And personally I think from their interaction with him the rest of the characters understand Vegeta too.

There was also the ultimate Tsundere scene in that episode where Vegeta complained about Bulma using the training room and then to himself he said would she be okay moving around so much and Trunks asked if he was worried and without thinking he said yes and then got embarrassed.

Also I think people confuse a Vegeta who was conflicted about what he feels in Z to one who doesn’t always outright admit his feelings in Super and who may say the opposite of what he feels. They are not the same thing.

[blain218]

Arguing that a character has no development because they didn't "change" is stupid. Character development is when a character becomes more 3D/freshed out overtime. Changing from one personality to another is not character development, neither is doing new things necessary character development. So to argue that Vegeta got no development because he didn't "change" is dumb.

That being said, Vegeta's development in Super is pretty good. We actually see more and different sides to him in Super than we did in Z, and his dyanmics with Cabba, his family and even Goku in Super are different from how he interacted with the others in Z.

[PFM18]

Vegeta had tons of development in Super he redeemed himself from the trash that he was in the Buu arc. I hate Buu Arc Vegeta.

"If you can hit me once I will take you to the park"*Trunks hits him*
...and then Vegeta doesn't actually take him to the park. What a great father

Then as Majin Vegeta he goes on saying that he wants to be ruthless like he use to be and that the fact that he has children and a wife makes him soft. Basically he talks about he resents his family and thinks it makes him weak. So then later the day same he is all like "I know I just said that I resent you and having you makes me weak, but I'm gonna blow myself up and we'll be good right? Alright see ya in a week!" Because, ya know, death doesn't actually mean anything in Dragonball so the scene loses a lot of meaning because Vegeta knew that they were gonna bring him back.(And they did)

And then you have a horrendously contradictory scene in the Buu Arc that I hate with a passion. Vegeta, in his battle with Kid Buu shows his determination by fighting somebody he knows he cannot defeat, but never gives up. He keeps fighting no matter what, no matter the beatdown that he receives. And then he sees Goku beating him and suddenly he is the type to just give up on something. For some reason he concedes that Goku is #1 and he will never surpass Goku. He just gives up on being on Goku's leve, despite this entire scene where he shows that he is in fact a determined,driven person that has a strong resolve. Now all of a sudden he is a little b**** that just cries and whines and gives up on being Goku's equal. Luckily, Super fixed this.

Then there's the fact that Buu Saga Vegeta is just plain weak and pathetic. Goku has SSJ3 and is way stronger than him, and Gohan is completely out of his league, and then his own kid is stronger than him when he fuses with his rival's kid. Like he didn't show any real strength really outside of beating Pui Pui. Buu Saga Vegeta is about as threatening as my neighbor's cat.

Super made Vegeta a total badass again and I love it.

[Miracles]

I don't like it. Vegeta is soft.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't like it. Vegeta is soft.

As soft as when he continually beats Cabba whenever they meet to teach him tough love, or as soft as when he beats the sh*t out of his foes?

Vegeta is soft in terms of his empathy. He's NOT soft in terms of demeanour except in rare moments that are actually quite important to how well the character has grown from his days as an asshole in DBZ.

[Exline]

Vegeta had tons of development in Super he redeemed himself from the trash that he was in the Buu arc. I hate Buu Arc Vegeta.

"If you can hit me once I will take you to the park"*Trunks hits him*
...and then Vegeta doesn't actually take him to the park. What a great father

Then as Majin Vegeta he goes on saying that he wants to be ruthless like he use to be and that the fact that he has children and a wife makes him soft. Basically he talks about he resents his family and thinks it makes him weak. So then later the day same he is all like "I know I just said that I resent you and having you makes me weak, but I'm gonna blow myself up and we'll be good right? Alright see ya in a week!" Because, ya know, death doesn't actually mean anything in Dragonball so the scene loses a lot of meaning because Vegeta knew that they were gonna bring him back.(And they did)

And then you have a horrendously contradictory scene in the Buu Arc that I hate with a passion. Vegeta, in his battle with Kid Buu shows his determination by fighting somebody he knows he cannot defeat, but never gives up. He keeps fighting no matter what, no matter the beatdown that he receives. And then he sees Goku beating him and suddenly he is the type to just give up on something. For some reason he concedes that Goku is #1 and he will never surpass Goku. He just gives up on being on Goku's leve, despite this entire scene where he shows that he is in fact a determined,driven person that has a strong resolve. Now all of a sudden he is a little b**** that just cries and whines and gives up on being Goku's equal. Luckily, Super fixed this.

Then there's the fact that Buu Saga Vegeta is just plain weak and pathetic. Goku has SSJ3 and is way stronger than him, and Gohan is completely out of his league, and then his own kid is stronger than him when he fuses with his rival's kid. Like he didn't show any real strength really outside of beating Pui Pui. Buu Saga Vegeta is about as threatening as my neighbor's cat.

Super made Vegeta a total badass again and I love it.

May I ask what happened in Super that made him badass again?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Vegeta had tons of development in Super he redeemed himself from the trash that he was in the Buu arc. I hate Buu Arc Vegeta.

"If you can hit me once I will take you to the park"*Trunks hits him*
...and then Vegeta doesn't actually take him to the park. What a great father

Then as Majin Vegeta he goes on saying that he wants to be ruthless like he use to be and that the fact that he has children and a wife makes him soft. Basically he talks about he resents his family and thinks it makes him weak. So then later the day same he is all like "I know I just said that I resent you and having you makes me weak, but I'm gonna blow myself up and we'll be good right? Alright see ya in a week!" Because, ya know, death doesn't actually mean anything in Dragonball so the scene loses a lot of meaning because Vegeta knew that they were gonna bring him back.(And they did)

And then you have a horrendously contradictory scene in the Buu Arc that I hate with a passion. Vegeta, in his battle with Kid Buu shows his determination by fighting somebody he knows he cannot defeat, but never gives up. He keeps fighting no matter what, no matter the beatdown that he receives. And then he sees Goku beating him and suddenly he is the type to just give up on something. For some reason he concedes that Goku is #1 and he will never surpass Goku. He just gives up on being on Goku's leve, despite this entire scene where he shows that he is in fact a determined,driven person that has a strong resolve. Now all of a sudden he is a little b**** that just cries and whines and gives up on being Goku's equal. Luckily, Super fixed this.

Then there's the fact that Buu Saga Vegeta is just plain weak and pathetic. Goku has SSJ3 and is way stronger than him, and Gohan is completely out of his league, and then his own kid is stronger than him when he fuses with his rival's kid. Like he didn't show any real strength really outside of beating Pui Pui. Buu Saga Vegeta is about as threatening as my neighbor's cat.

Super made Vegeta a total badass again and I love it.

May I ask what happened in Super that made him badass again?

He has other qualities to fill in his character when he jobs and/or is surpassed by Goku, whereas before he had nothing to fill the gaps

[Benedetto12]

I love how Vegeta was developed in Super, he is still the badass character of DB, but he gets a new reason to fight, while he needs to get stronger and fight because of his saiyan genes, he shows that he will always look to protect his family and friends, also he gets a new trait to him: honor, he shows it, when he protected Roshi against Frost, when he promised Cabba to bring them back.

[The Patrolman]

Then as Majin Vegeta he goes on saying that he wants to be ruthless like he use to be and that the fact that he has children and a wife makes him soft. Basically he talks about he resents his family and thinks it makes him weak. So then later the day same he is all like "I know I just said that I resent you and having you makes me weak, but I'm gonna blow myself up and we'll be good right? Alright see ya in a week!" Because, ya know, death doesn't actually mean anything in Dragonball so the scene loses a lot of meaning because Vegeta knew that they were gonna bring him back.(And they did)

Everything Vegeta he was saying to Goku he lying to himself. He was suffering from a midlife crisis. Goku even called him out on his bullshit. He realizes that his actions led to many people dying and to atone for his actions sacrificing himself was the only way to go. And Vegeta was already brought back with the Dragon Balls once they.

And then you have a horrendously contradictory scene in the Buu Arc that I hate with a passion. Vegeta, in his battle with Kid Buu shows his determination by fighting somebody he knows he cannot defeat, but never gives up. He keeps fighting no matter what, no matter the beatdown that he receives. And then he sees Goku beating him and suddenly he is the type to just give up on something. For some reason he concedes that Goku is #1 and he will never surpass Goku. He just gives up on being on Goku's leve, despite this entire scene where he shows that he is in fact a determined,driven person that has a strong resolve. Now all of a sudden he is a little b**** that just cries and whines and gives up on being Goku's equal. Luckily, Super fixed this.

Because Vegeta had this obsession with being better than Goku because of his stupid pride. He spent all these years trying to surpass him but he just couldn't. He finally understands Goku's ideals and who he is as a person as a AS A WARRIOR, he comes to terms on why could never surpass him.

[Logania]

There's little moments I like throughout the show, like Vegeta going to that island in episode 2 because he promised Trunk, his moment with Cabba in the Tournament of Destroyers and his time with Future Trunks in the Zamasu arc, but other than that I never get the feeling of Vegeta really developing in total. When it's the final moments of the Tournament of Power and the ending of Super, I don't see a new side of Vegeta be it personality, characteristics or goals in life. He's still just Vegeta to me that I've seen since episode 1.

[blain218]

There's little moments I like throughout the show, like Vegeta going to that island in episode 2 because he promised Trunk, his moment with Cabba in the Tournament of Destroyers and his time with Future Trunks in the Zamasu arc, but other than that I never get the feeling of Vegeta really developing in total. When it's the final moments of the Tournament of Power and the ending of Super, I don't see a new side of Vegeta be it personality, characteristics or goals in life. He's still just Vegeta to me that I've seen since episode 1.

Once again, "changing" traits is not development, expanding on and elaborating on already existing traits is, and Super did that with Vegeta.

[Logania]

Once again, "changing" traits is not development, expanding on and elaborating on already existing traits is, and Super did that with Vegeta.

Except it is for Vegeta, as all his developments in past Sagas has changed how he is going forward, with Buu Saga making him vastly different. What he had in Super for development as a character was already worked around in Z, and besides Cabba which was a nice little moment, he hasn't been really fleshed out as a character any more than he has and has regressed a bit in some areas (mainly just involving his rivalry with Goku)

He cares about protecting his family and will fight and die for them has already been displayed during the end of his fight with Majin Buu, in his Final Explosion final words, and the rant Goku gave Vegeta about Trunks/Bulma being absorbed, breaking his pride and finally goes along with fusing. I don't think it's developed him further that we get the idea shoved in our face 10 times when he's fighting Jiren. We know this. We've seen this.

When it comes to Cabba and Future Trunks I do like those moments, and his desire to save Universe 6 and the Saiyans is really the only development I see him have as he never cared about the Saiyans before as he said in the Namek Saga, so it's a nice little change and if they had a moment where Goku and Vegeta visit Planet Sadal there would no doubt be some character growth for him there which I really wanted to see.

I'm not expecting him to be like a totally different guy, but he hasn't really grown at all for me as a character during the run of Super.

[blain218]

Once again, "changing" traits is not development, expanding on and elaborating on already existing traits is, and Super did that with Vegeta.

Except it is for Vegeta, as all his developments in past Sagas has changed how he is going forward, with Buu Saga making him vastly different. What he had in Super for development as a character was already worked around in Z, and besides Cabba which was a nice little moment, he hasn't been really fleshed out as a character any more than he has and has regressed a bit in some areas (mainly just involving his rivalry with Goku)

He cares about protecting his family and will fight and die for them has already been displayed during the end of his fight with Majin Buu, in his Final Explosion final words, and the rant Goku gave Vegeta about Trunks/Bulma being absorbed, breaking his pride and finally goes along with fusing. I don't think it's developed him further that we get the idea shoved in our face 10 times when he's fighting Jiren. We know this. We've seen this.

When it comes to Cabba and Future Trunks I do like those moments, and his desire to save Universe 6 and the Saiyans is really the only development I see him have as he never cared about the Saiyans before as he said in the Namek Saga, so it's a nice little change and if they had a moment where Goku and Vegeta visit Planet Sadal there would no doubt be some character growth for him there which I really wanted to see.

I'm not expecting him to be like a totally different guy, but he hasn't really grown at all for me as a character during the run of Super.

You are missing the point. You are still making the "he hasn't changed" fallacy. Just because a character still has the same traits and habits doesn't mean they aren't developing. Doing new things isn't necessary character development, elaborating on them is.