Vegeta's development in Super

[Kaiosama]

Now that Vegeta's character arc has come to an end in Dragon ball Super, what are some of your thoughts in how he was handled in the show? Good? Underwhelming? What about his transformation and his motivations for breaking his limits towards the end of the series? What would have you done differently?

[emperior]

Super has continued Vegeta's development from DBZ perfectly in my opinion. He still chases after Goku and wants to be the best, and that's perfectly in-character for him, but he's also shown he can throw away his pride for his family when he feared Beerus was about to destroy the Earth, and has shown that he deeply cares for Bulma, Trunks (and lately Bra) many times - something that wasn't really shown in DBZ or the manga. He is no longer fighting only to feed his ego, but to protect his loved ones too. He's also shown his more human side with the affection he's silently developed for Cabba. So I'm overall happy with how Super has portrayed Vegeta.

[Kanious]

He had a good amount of character development throghout DBS, especially in FT and ToP arcs, and i'm satisfied with that. About the new transformation, it looks cool, but the hype and tension about it wasn't well builded, and it didn't looked too impressive. I would have prefered that he got the unmastered UI ofrm than that crystal blue form.

Vegeta could have been handled better, i think. I'm a Vegeta fanboy, and the moment i most enjoyed about him on ToP was when he teamed with Goku to defeat U9 guys. It was a fun fight.

[MajinVegetaPD]

His development was good barring the last few episodes of him constantly spewing about his pride and family. That is way over done at this point. His transformation was also very underwhelming.

[Torturephile]

Pretty good throughout, specially during the future saga. That was until the ToP started, when he acted in a regressed manner for much of it and suddenly parroted about how much he cared about his family and Princess Cabba towards the end of it.

[SupremeKai25]

I think the apex of Vegeta's character development in Super was during the Future Trunks arc. In particular, episode 63 (i think most Vegeta fans can agree with me) was fantastic for Vegeta. It showed that Vegeta truly cared for Goku, not just as a rival, but as a friend too. So when he came across Black, a fake, a Shinjin who had stolen the body of a true Saiyan and used it for his twisted ideals, he was deeply humiliated and couldn't just let a fallen God use the body of a Saiyan as a worthless mean to an end. And i'm not even a Vegeta fan, in fact ironically my favourite character is Zamasu.

Vegeta also shined in episode 65, when he defended Trunks from Fused Zamasu's Lightning of Absolution at the cost of his own life. And together with his son, he saved Earth from destruction and pushed back Fused Zamasu's Divine Wrath.

[The Patrolman]

The only time I feel Vegeta ever developed was in the U6/U7 arc when he takes Cabba as his disciple and in the FT arc with his relationship with Trunks. In the TOP arc none of his actions feel like he is gaining any development. "Oh he cares about his family and Cabba". Thats not development. He is not learning anything new.

[Diccolo-420]

Now that Vegeta's character arc has come to an end in Dragon ball Super, what are some of your thoughts in how he was handled in the show? Good? Underwhelming? What about his transformation and his motivations for breaking his limits towards the end of the series? What would have you done differently?

His character has basically gone in a circle, first being reverted somewhat at hte start to now finally being equivalent to his persona at the end of the buu saga. I'd be more impressed if this was the first time, but all of these moments for him are just retracing old steps. It's clear the writers don't know what to do with him

[Kinokima]

The only time I feel Vegeta ever developed was in the U6/U7 arc when he takes Cabba as his disciple and in the FT arc with his relationship with Trunks. In the TOP arc none of his actions feel like he is gaining any development. "Oh he cares about his family and Cabba". Thats not development. He is not learning anything new.

Kind of confused by this statement and why Vegeta is held to another standard from other characters. How has any other character who has been around for so many episodes like Vegeta dramatically changed? Yet I keep seeing people say they keep doing the exact same thing with Vegeta in Super!!

What exactly new do you think they should have done with him? I think Vegeta is exactly where he should have been after his development in Buu.

And no Super Vegeta is not at all the same as Buu Saga Vegeta.


Yes Buu Saga Vegeta fought to save the Earth and fight for his family at the end. The whole point was he was conflicted until Final Atonement. And even until the moment he fused with Goku and realized Goku was the one who had to fight Kid Buu he was conflicted. His final development into a good guy happened in the Buu saga but not really until the end.


He’s already a good guy in all of Super. There is no question about that any point in the story. Except for fans who misunderstood Vegeta’s character and don’t understand he doesn’t show his true feelings often & can act like a jerk on the surface. It’s his character type. It doesn’t mean he ever regressed it just means he doesn’t always say what he truly feels inside.

All Super Vegeta is a Vegeta that is not conflicted at all an fights for those he cares about. Vegeta doesn’t have to go through a major character change because that has already happened. The point of Super Vegeta is to show much he has changed from Z.

And I think there were tons of moments throughout Super that showed how much he is a different character now. Do they really need to show he loved his family and cares about Cabba more than once. Well of course not. But some of us that are fans like that type of thing from Vegeta because it’s so different from how he once was.

And really if they had waited till the last episode to say it you would have fans complaining that he doesn’t care about his Universe and Family. Because guess what that is exactly what fans did say until he mentioned them. So even though I 100% always know Vegeta cares without him having to say it (even though I love when he does) the fanbase doesn’t seem to always get it.

[KingKaash]

Vegeta in Champa Arc: Cleaned house of all the weak U6 characters and then got jobbed by Jiren

Vegeta in Future Trunks Arc: Probably Vegeta's best arc. He played the father role to Future Trunks well and his hate for Goku Black was great.

Vegeta in ToP: This is where Vegeta underwhelmed to me which is sad because this is the last we'll remember of Vegeta. He didn't have any meaningful eliminations because the Toppo elimination was poorly written in favor of Vegeta to me. Remember originally there was no Toppo. Toppo was created to be Vegeta's big battle. Yet this ultimate battle ends in a single episode so it's unceremonious to me.

[Freeza9000]

Vegeta's character hasn't progressed nor has it been regressed. It just remains a stagnant line. Though admittedly, Super does offer Vegeta well characterized moments, namely in the U6 and Future Trunks arcs.

[sintzu]

A very natural progression from where he was left off after Buu as we've seen the positive results of his reform such as being able to keep up with Goku and taking down the likes of Golden Freeza, Black and Toppo.

[Ki Breaker]

Vegeta. Became. Shit.

He was very fun to watch in his original run, and he is still fun in the manga as well, but anime Vegeta is boring, nothing interesting about him, if that's development, I don't want it..

[Lord Beerus]

I enjoyed it a lot. Vegeta certainly became much outward with the expression of how much he cares for his family and allies, and his empathy for others is much greater than it has even been in Dragon Ball, and while he still wants to keep up with Goku, in the end he doesn't feel like he has to follow in his footsteps to do it and forges his own path to do it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Vegeta has had some great moments, especially when they're more subdued and subtle.

He really becomes a family man, a man of honour. He's still competitive with Goku, but in a much healthier manner that promotes growth between the two of them. You can legitimately call them friends now.

And when he learns that the Saiyans are alive and kicking in Universe 6, we see his pride in the Saiyan race return, this time in a much more compassionate and caring light; he no longer wants weaklings to die, but rather rise above weakness and become stronger for it.

With the return of Future Trunks, his pride in his Saiyan heritage and his love for his family comes to the forefront in some of his most selfless displays of kindness and compassion to date.

And in the Tournament of Power, his arrogance, pride, and compassion all come together full circle whereby he pushes himself to heights unimaginable and aims to be the best he can be whilst also wanting to protect those he loves. The birth of his daughter Bra and the realization of the potential erasure of the Universe 6 Saiyans really highlights this.

Vegeta is at some of his best in the anime; I wish I could say the same for the manga.

[Nero<>Akira]

Nothing is more infuriating than to see people complaining about characters only being allowed to do or say something once and never being able to do it again. That's not how it works. The only time something like that was ever overboard was in the Future Trunks arc, which I am a fan of and is arguably the best DB arc ever (current would have been if it continued like the recruitment episodes), when Zamasu and Trunks both repeated their mortals are bad and that mortals will survive. Even then, I never truly rolled my eyes.

If Vegeta is trying to do something he did in the Boo arc aka use an explosive wave for his loved ones... why is that an issue? "It's just the same and a nostalgia homage" lol come on. This is called consistency which is why you see him caring about his family and his promise to cabba. You have people saying Vegeta wasn't doing it for his family cause it wasn't mentioned at all though it's obvious.. then when we have him actually mention it and show how important it is, it's a problem because "it's repetitive and the same thing." Get out of here lol Not to mention people complaining Vegeta's character is inconsistent in Super. Pft. Fans are the ones going in circles. Not Vegeta.

Vegeta continues to be consistently characterized and developed in one of the most organic and subtle ways in super. Vegeta in Super wasn't even the person he was at the end of the Boo arc. Vegeta wasn't spending time with his family the way he did in the beginning, he wasn't swallowing his pride and making a fool of himself to keep his family and others safe, he wasn't legitimately friends with Goku nor did he have a friendly two sided rivalry, he didn't take time off from training to be with his family, he never cried for being unable to keep a promise or not being strong enough to save their universe from erasure, he was never as open about his love for his family (he remains bashful when there's a lot of people); we see Vegeta being a hard ass to Future Trunks but fighting alongside him (father son gallick gun was a treat), showing care, & trying to protect him without Trunks having to die like in the Cell arc for him to do so; the last thing he did with Trunks was give a punch that Trunks blocked and it was such a sweet moment compared to just saying peace like before. Vegeta may have admitted Goku was better than him and helped to defeat Kid Boo, but it's still much different than everything I have described and to finally having Vegeta willingly with no regret or conflict giving Goku his last remaining energy to carry on a selfless act and a heavy burden; much different than the Freeza arc where Vegeta wanted to kill Freeza for himself and to be the strongest in the universe in order to rule and cried cause he wasn't going to get what he wanted nor because he was the super saiyan he thought himself to be; he was dying and had to beg Goku to kill him who he viewed as low class trash and realized he was the legendary SSJ instead. He's even developed a longing for his people now.

Vegeta has come a long way and has always been more about personal growth and development than Goku has. He's developed a healthy passion to be better than Goku, than where he is now, to be the best ever, and for his family as well. And he uses Goku as a measuring pole for that BECAUSE he believes him to be #1. I think they can still do more with him and the other characters. The writer(s) just has to be competent enough to do so. Super is ending and this character arc is done. Dragon Ball is about progression so in whatever form it continues, I hope his character continues to do better as with Goku and whoever Toriyama decides to follow up the story with. Plenty of characters from old have gotten some great development in this current arc that I know nobody expected. The only one that fell short was Tien and it's a shame that just when he got cool again in Resurrection F(ilm), he grows cooler in Fighterz rather than Super. Here's to Toyotaro at least giving him a decent fight in the manga.

[prince212]

One development part of vegeta was as a family man and also concerning about others , he opened his shell at that point but keeping his personallyty and I like that , except a couple of gags and stay on his knees for others shake at the beginning of super . Also happy for Bulma , he became a real dad.
About power he also was placed very close to the main character , he trained with u7 angel ,and the gap of power between Goku and him was stretched and some times he seemed to surpass Goku for a bit , if we don’t include what is happening in the last 3 chapters .
So , talking about development I think only a.17 had a better one , and yes Goku in the last chapters as far as power ,of course

[snpaa]

Vegeta being a person who cares about his family was something that was already established in the buu arc , I don't even consider the vegeta in super as development more along the lines of retreading old ground . Some people like retreading old things others don't but me personally I can't pretend that dragonball super vegeta's development isn't anything other then superficial. I believe I've already stated in another thread that they are trying to give vegeta and cabba the piccolo and gohan story but only with a less impactful story behind it, a bigger convoluted reason, less actual organic bonding . The only relation vegeta and cabba have with each other is being apart of the same race, except not really since the universe 6 saiyans evolved differently and act way differently then universe 7 saiyans. In fact universe 7 saiyans just seem like humans in a saiyan costume.

Cabba is basically tarble , but in the dragonball super universe he can exist without being a walking talking contradiction to what was established in z about the saiyan's being wiped out, and vegeta's personal statement during the android saga when he first saw trunks that he and goku were the only saiyans left. You would not gain instant favor from vegeta in Z just because you were the same race as him, he would kill a member of his own endangered race for getting their back snapped by goku. in fact vegeta was something more in the lines of a sociopath , he stated on his deathbed after being killed by frieza that he didn't care that the saiyans were genocided.

Dragonball in general has a lot of contradictions, inaccuracies , and things that just don't make sense , we choose to believe the scenes that were done well and pretend that the scenes that were done shoddily don't exist . For me I choose to believe the scenes in dragonball z that contradict the development and personality vegeta has had in super. I don't often use the word "forced development"but vegeta's development seems more on the lines of people's idealized version of vegeta instead of the mad man he presented himself as . Take my opinion for whatever it's worth.

[Kinokima]

Vegeta being a person who cares about his family was something that was already established in the buu arc , I don't even consider the vegeta in super as development more along the lines of retreading old ground .

Except it's not the same because in the Buu arc beyond sacrificing himself for his family where did Vegeta outright admit he was fighting for his family, they they were his motivation, etc.

I think people are mistaking a conflicted Vegeta in the Buu saga who yes obviously loved and chose his family in the end to a Vegeta in Super who outright admits they are his motivation, that he has things he wants to protect and promises to keep. Vegeta can be a Tsundere and is embarrassed to show he has feelings but he knows what he is fighting for now.

And why does Vegeta have to go through a major change again? Where is all the major changes that Goku and Gohan went through? But yet I never see fans complain about this. Well okay I do see some fans complain about Gohan going back to not training so I'll take that back a bit.

Some people like retreading old things others don't but me personally I can't pretend that dragonball super vegeta's development isn't anything other then superficial. I believe I've already stated in another thread that they are trying to give vegeta and cabba the piccolo and gohan story but only with a less impactful story behind it, a bigger convoluted reason, less actual organic bonding . The only relation vegeta and cabba have with each other is being apart of the same race, except not really since the universe 6 saiyans evolved differently and act way differently then universe 7 saiyans. In fact universe 7 saiyans just seem like humans in a saiyan costume.

So every student/mentor story is Piccolo/Gohan? Gohan and Piccolo changed each other that was the point of that relationship. Gohan helped Piccolo start to care about someone and Piccolo helped Gohan who was a scared kid toughen up. I don't really see any parallel to Vegeta/Cabba. Vegeta is already a good person when he meets Cabba. And yes having a young noble Saiyajin look up to him got to Vegeta. I think it's nice that Vegeta has a new relationship in the series. That's what makes a character dynamic.

And for the record I never entirely believed Vegeta when he said he didn't care what happened to the Saiyajins, but caring about others was seen as a weakness to him. Of course Vegeta would never admit that he cared and in fact I don't believe he thought he cared either. But in the end deep down he did have a heart. But is it so hard to believe that a Vegeta who could care less about others in the past but has learned to love his family can now not want to see another Saiyajin race destroyed?


edit: Also correction Vegeta didn't say that he didn't care about the Saiyajins on his deathbed but when Dodoria first told him that Freeza had killed them.


edit 2: As for Vegeta being a sociopath it really comes down to how much you can suspend your disbelief that someone like him can change. He did horrible thing and I am pretty convinced that if Toriyama knew he would turn him good he wouldn't have had him do those things. But I also think a lot of people forget that Vegeta was an alien of a ruthless warrior race and apply human concepts to him that he didn't really know. While Vegeta may have knew of the concepts of love & caring about others; it's obvious until he came to Earth he never experienced them himself. To me he had to experience and learn about these things to embrace them in the end. And as he lived his life an entirely different way up to that point (even as a child) it wasn't something that happened instantly but slowly over time. Which is why I say that Vegeta was cold and ruthless alien who learned humanity and this is where his real character development lies.

[snpaa]

Except it's not the same because in the Buu arc beyond sacrificing himself for his family where did Vegeta outright admit he was fighting for his family, they they were his motivation, etc.

I think people are mistaking a conflicted Vegeta in the Buu saga who yes obviously loved and chose his family in the end to a Vegeta in Super who outright admits they are his motivation, that he has things he wants to protect and promises to keep. Vegeta can be a Tsundere and is embarrassed to show he has feelings but he knows what he is fighting for now.

And why does Vegeta have to go through a major change again? Where is all the major changes that Goku and Gohan went through? But yet I never see fans complain about this. Well okay I do see some fans complain about Gohan going back to not training so I'll take that back a bit.

It's the same, the only difference is that z was more subtle about it and super is more in your face about it . Z does it better because we can read between the lines , because of his previous act of sacrificing himself that he is not fighting for just himself but everyone he cares about. Vegeta done right is when his signs of affection and caring for someone isn't explicitly or repeatedly stated.

I'm fine with him not going through major changes just don't pretend like it's a big development.

So every student/mentor story is Piccolo/Gohan? Gohan and Piccolo changed each other that was the point of that relationship. Gohan helped Piccolo start to care about someone and Piccolo helped Gohan who was a scared kid toughen up. I don't really see any parallel to Vegeta/Cabba. Vegeta is already a good person when he meets Cabba. And yes having a young noble Saiyajin look up to him got to Vegeta. I think it's nice that Vegeta has a new relationship in the series. That's what makes a character dynamic.

One of the reasons toriyama wrote piccolo and gohan's mentor student relationship was to develop piccolo's character and vice versa for gohan, the reason for the vegeta cabba mentor student relationship is to further develop the vegeta character the sole difference between these parallel events is that nobody gives a shit about cabba . Because he is a stranger to us with little to no history or relation to vegeta or the rest of the cast, he just posses his racial heritage, that's it .

The reason the gohan x piccolo and vegeta x cabba mentor and student relationships are different between other established mentor/student relationships in dragonball such as goku/roshi, goku/kami goku/popo goku/korin goku/king kai goku/whis is that these two particular relationships were created their to change the character motivations and alignments fundamentally.

And for the record I never entirely believed Vegeta when he said he didn't care what happened to the Saiyajins, but caring about others was seen as a weakness to him. Of course Vegeta would never admit that he cared and in fact I don't believe he thought he cared either. But in the end deep down he did have a heart. But is it so hard to believe that a Vegeta who could care less about others in the past but has learned to love his family can now not want to see another Saiyajin race destroyed?

It's possible , like I said before dragonball is filled with contradictions , we choose to believe the scenes we like the most at the same time as I said earlier the vegeta character done right is subtle , he doesn't explicitly state his affections which makes moments where he does show his vulnerabilities , insecurities, respect and admiration that much more impactful. So you're right reading between the lines he could still care about his race, but at the same same time he showed no interest in reviveing raditz because he was weak, he killed nappa for losing a fight, nappa is someone that vegeta has known for 15+ years by now and he discarded him like a used tissue.

edit: Also correction Vegeta didn't say that he didn't care about the Saiyajins on his deathbed but when Dodoria first told him that Freeza had killed them.

Ah thanks for the correction I thought I mixed up my events.

edit 2: As for Vegeta being a sociopath it really comes down to how much you can suspend your disbelief that someone like him can change. He did horrible thing and I am pretty convinced that if Toriyama knew he would turn him good he wouldn't have had him do those things. But I also think a lot of people forget that Vegeta was an alien of a ruthless warrior race and apply human concepts to him that he didn't really know. While Vegeta may have knew of the concepts of love & caring about others; it's obvious until he came to Earth he never experienced them himself. To me he had to experience and learn about these things to embrace them in the end. And as he lived his life an entirely different way up to that point (even as a child) it wasn't something that happened instantly but slowly over time. Which is why I say that Vegeta was cold and ruthless alien who learned humanity and this is where his real character development lies.

1. I don't believe that murder and genocide was just a human concept of morality in the dragonball universe, we saw many different cultures that either knew murder was wrong or knew it was wrong and didn't care.

2. If you ignore(which I choose to do)the super scene where kid vegeta is seen in a flashback worried about his dad bowing to beerus and making b line charge for beerus, I can agree with the idea that loveing and caring were things he never experienced

3. I agree with majority of your assessment . well put.