Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

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HeroR
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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by HeroR » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:06 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Vegeta SSB was stronger than Hitto, only lost by not knowing Time Skip. Hitto would only beat Vegeta after raising Time Skip to 0.5 seconds.

It was said that the key to beating Merged Zamasu in Toriyama's script would be Goku and Vegeta SSB, taking turns and waiting for the time of the merger to end.
The fact that Goku confronts Zamasu in the end would probably only refer to the fact that he would be the last to face him, but not that he was the only one (after all, both alone would be able to beat him).

No, it was not a declaration of power, Whis just said that his senses are constantly on the edges and that Vegeta needed to relax more.
This is related to your personality
Physical stronger, but Hit was the better fighter. The rest of your sentence if a 'what if' that really can't be proven other than 'well, Goku did it'.

Taking turns, and then Goku basically soloed the rest of the fight. Which really makes little sense if Vegeta was supposed to be vastly stronger.

Personality in why he couldn't surpassed Goku. It was basically what did him in during the Cell Games.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Mercenary » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:20 pm

HeroR wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Vegeta SSB was stronger than Hitto, only lost by not knowing Time Skip. Hitto would only beat Vegeta after raising Time Skip to 0.5 seconds.

It was said that the key to beating Merged Zamasu in Toriyama's script would be Goku and Vegeta SSB, taking turns and waiting for the time of the merger to end.
The fact that Goku confronts Zamasu in the end would probably only refer to the fact that he would be the last to face him, but not that he was the only one (after all, both alone would be able to beat him).

No, it was not a declaration of power, Whis just said that his senses are constantly on the edges and that Vegeta needed to relax more.
This is related to your personality
Physical stronger, but Hit was the better fighter. The rest of your sentence if a 'what if' that really can't be proven other than 'well, Goku did it'.

Taking turns, and then Goku basically soloed the rest of the fight. Which really makes little sense if Vegeta was supposed to be vastly stronger.

Personality in why he couldn't surpassed Goku. It was basically what did him in during the Cell Games.
Time Skip aside,

If Vegeta was able to use 100% of his power, Hit would be roflstomped and it's not even a debate.

While in the anime, they made Hit incredibly strong which obviously he wasn't destined to be. At least in the manga.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by HeroR » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:23 pm

Mercenary wrote: Time Skip aside,

If Vegeta was able to use 100% of his power, Hit would be roflstomped and it's not even a debate.

While in the anime, they made Hit incredibly strong which obviously he wasn't destined to be. At least in the manga.
The anime never suggested that Vegeta was weakened against Hit, that was the manga. And just because something happened in the manga doesn't mean it 'wasn't supposed to be that way' because the anime did something different.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Mercenary » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:48 pm

HeroR wrote:
Mercenary wrote: Time Skip aside,

If Vegeta was able to use 100% of his power, Hit would be roflstomped and it's not even a debate.

While in the anime, they made Hit incredibly strong which obviously he wasn't destined to be. At least in the manga.
The anime never suggested that Vegeta was weakened against Hit, that was the manga. And just because something happened in the manga doesn't mean it 'wasn't supposed to be that way' because the anime did something different.
I was talking about the manga though.

I know that anime had treated Hit differently. Hit in the anime version was OP while in the manga he won only because Vegeta was weakened.

That was my point.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by HeroR » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:51 pm

Mercenary wrote:
I was talking about the manga though.

I know that anime had treated Hit differently. Hit in the anime version was OP while in the manga he won only because Vegeta was weakened.

That was my point.
More like Vegeta was a moron. Seriously, he didn't going in and out of Blue would dumped his power by 90%?
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Mercenary » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:58 pm

HeroR wrote:
Mercenary wrote:
I was talking about the manga though.

I know that anime had treated Hit differently. Hit in the anime version was OP while in the manga he won only because Vegeta was weakened.

That was my point.
More like Vegeta was a moron. Seriously, he didn't going in and out of Blue would dumped his power by 90%?

Meh, call it whatever you want.

The truth is he was able to use only 10% of his power.

That's why he lost.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by HeroR » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:04 pm

Mercenary wrote:
Meh, call it whatever you want.

The truth is he was able to use only 10% of his power.

That's why he lost.
Yeah, and it was really stupid to the point that Toyo dropped that point in the very next arc.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:05 pm

HeroR wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Vegeta SSB was stronger than Hitto, only lost by not knowing Time Skip. Hitto would only beat Vegeta after raising Time Skip to 0.5 seconds.

It was said that the key to beating Merged Zamasu in Toriyama's script would be Goku and Vegeta SSB, taking turns and waiting for the time of the merger to end.
The fact that Goku confronts Zamasu in the end would probably only refer to the fact that he would be the last to face him, but not that he was the only one (after all, both alone would be able to beat him).

No, it was not a declaration of power, Whis just said that his senses are constantly on the edges and that Vegeta needed to relax more.
This is related to your personality
Physical stronger, but Hit was the better fighter. The rest of your sentence if a 'what if' that really can't be proven other than 'well, Goku did it'.

Taking turns, and then Goku basically soloed the rest of the fight. Which really makes little sense if Vegeta was supposed to be vastly stronger.

Personality in why he couldn't surpassed Goku. It was basically what did him in during the Cell Games.
The point is, even with Time Skip 0.1, Hitto was being defeated by Goku SSB. If Vegeta knew how the technique worked, then he would have done the same too. But Hitto increased his Time Skip to 0.5.

It was never said that Goku would take the rest of the fight.
We just know that Goku and Vegeta would face Zamasu alone, taking turns.

Not the same as the Saga Cell. Because there Vegeta was much weaker than Goku. In FNF, everything indicates that they were on the same level, but Goku just fell apart when he was not able to relax enough

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Mercenary » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:20 pm

HeroR wrote:
Mercenary wrote:
Meh, call it whatever you want.

The truth is he was able to use only 10% of his power.

That's why he lost.
Yeah, and it was really stupid to the point that Toyo dropped that point in the very next arc.

It was stupid because you dislike Vegeta and manga didn't downplay him that much but downplayed Hit instead?

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by HeroR » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:32 pm

Mercenary wrote:

It was stupid because you dislike Vegeta and manga didn't downplay him that much but downplayed Hit instead?
Oh here we go with the 'you disliked this character'. Is this like the go to thing for you instead of trying to see my point? I'm not like most here that is so petty about a fictional character.

Allow me to break it down why Vegeta was an idiot. Vegeta trained with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for three years with Goku and had time after the whole Resurrection 'F'. So he should know that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan would massively dropped his stamina if he went out of the form after activating it. Heck even Whis knew this.

So Vegeta used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan against Cabba to show it off to him. Fair enough. Here's where the stupid come on. Why did he turn off Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan after the fight? Why didn't he just stay in that form after he fought Cabba. Yes, he would have drained stamina by staying in it, but I highly doubt he would have lost 90% of it. It wasn't like his fight with Cabba was long. But instead he dropped out of the form, turned it back on, and then acted new when Hit beat his ass.

The 90% dropped in of itself made little sense to boot since why would Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan drained stamina like that when no other Super Saiyan form, which includes Ultra Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 3, worked like that. No Super Saiyan form loses stamina just by transforming too many times. To make it worst, Goku and Vegeta had the form for almost four years, so why would they be that inefficient with it? It was so bad that Toyo literally abandoned this plot point by the next story arc.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Rebel Instinct » Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:01 pm

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:Can you provide any example of something that was Toriyama-only, that was exclusive to the manga?
I most certainly could have, but Neon Z already did it for me. Black using Super Saiyan, Fused Zamasu having a time limit, Goku and Vegeta being able to fight him as Super Saiyan Blue. It's all there in the interviews and commentaries.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:You claim that the manga is more canon.
No, I don't. Not a single one of my posts in this thread has claimed anything like that. The anime and manga are both equally valid canon interpretations of Super, with neither being "more canon" than the other. I told you as much myself in the past.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:You even had Toei themselfes saying that they treat the word of Toriyama as the word of god.
We've discussed this before in another thread. It's not as cut and dry as you believe it is.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:Now you like the manga way more over the anime and thats fine. But I can respect your opinion. You dont. Thats another problem
You are not accepting of those who like Super, and who dare even have the nerve to say the anime is better. Thats an issue
I absolutely respect that opinion. It's great that people enjoy the anime as much as they do. If I took issue with everyone "who dares even have the nerve to say the anime is better", I'd die of exhaustion. Liking the anime does not bother me in the slightest and I've never criticized anyone for stating their personal opinions because it's purely a matter of taste. The only time I post to specifically call something out is to point out misinformation. Calling it out when you don't back up your "facts" with verifiable official sources does not mean I don't respect your preferences, it means I take issue with where you're getting your information from.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:How is that a double standard?
It's a double standard because you say that having a manga bias and tearing down the anime while propping up the manga is a problem. You then go on to state your anime bias and tear down the manga while propping up the anime in the very same post. It's apparently a problem only when it's done in favor of the manga, but it's not a problem when it's down in favor of the anime. You're holding people who prefer the manga up to a different standard than yourself.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:The vast majority of your posts are shitting on the anime (you even have it as your sig) while praising the magna.
They aren't, actually. I've even posted several comments decrying the pointlessness of the constant fighting between anime and manga fans and how it's ruining the atmosphere of the community. The comment in my sig openly says that it's okay to feel like the anime is more "fun", "epic" and "entertaining" and to find the manga boring. The point of the comment is that the manga has a more clearly-structured and concise story. That's it. I think it's ridiculous that people are fighting over which version is superior and trying to win some faux "war" instead of just following the version they like best, giving their opinions and moving on. This leads me to the next point...
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:You claim i have an anime agenda but you only ever came out to defend the manga.
The reason I mostly come out to post in regard to the manga is because it's simply the medium I prefer. It's not always praise either. I openly state my dislike of the lackluster new transformation designs, the various retcons, and my disdain for how the Future Trunks arc ended regardless of version. I've also expressed my disappointment in not getting a fleshed out Resurrection F flashback in the manga. I rarely ever post in episode discussions because I don't watch the new episodes every week. I have little of value to contribute to those conversations, so I stay out of it and leave everyone else to their own devices. If I really hated people being positive about the anime, don't you think I'd be there every week raising Cain against the people praising the episodes?
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:I'm done with this now. If you want to continue to talk anime vs manga then PM me. Is there anything you have to say about the thread title?
As you wish. I'm not going to bother you any further with this. Neither of us are getting anything of benefit out it.

For the record regarding the thread title, I feel like Vegeta is always destined to lag a step behind Goku - making strides every now and then, but always getting eclipsed in the end. If there ends up being a new series in the future, I could see Vegeta catching up to Ultra Instinct in some way and I imagine the trend between he and Goku will continue, but it could change if Toriyama/the writers wanted it to. Who knows?
The post-Super fandom has ruined my love for Dragon Ball.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Hawk9211 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:27 am

HeroR wrote:
Hawk9211 wrote: Energy expenditure is in both.Watch episode 38 just around hit fight.

Goku said was that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan drained stamina, but energy lost wasn't the reason why Vegeta lost to Hit in the anime.
I thought you were saying the same as Sendai.
Why power levels are important?
The genre and roots of dragon ball

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