Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Lionel » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:55 pm

If Goku is able to continue progressing through the tiers then there won't be any reason to prohibit Vegeta from at least achieving the level that Goku previously had -- the general standard is that Goku is always a step ahead of Vegeta, but it doesn't have to be several. When you're talking about some kind of equaliser then I'm not sure how Vegeta can achieve that without unlocking Ultra Instinct for himself. There isn't enough time or opportunities for him to get it in Super, though. I think one other alternative might be possible with a potential unlock being undertaken by Vegeta. Elder Kaioshin's ability is supposed to not only unleash all of a person's latent strength, but raise it many, many times above its limits; the only shortback I can think of is it takes away the "uniqueness" of Gohan's power acquisition and status.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:42 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Doubt beerus will ever master it. He had millions of years to try. The only reason goku did it it’s because goku is an outlier, or in other words, the main character. Vegeta mastering it could be possible. Anyway we have heroes. If there is no UI vegeta in the anime, heroes will most likely give vegeta the form
Well for one, Berus is incredibly lazy and spends most of his time sleeping lol.

How much actual training time has Berus spent on training, let alone on training UI specifically? You're talking about very little. If barely anything at all

Btw, I would love to see some backstory on what Berus is. He must be from a race of incredibly strong fighters to be that strong, and especially with how little he trains

At the end of the day, all the training in the world can not simply compare to the experiences and growth of a real live fight

Berus had no one to push him past his limits like Goku

Goku gained the new MUI form out of an instinctual need to survive during live battle while the stakes were at their highest possible (not only you getting erased - your whole universe getting erased).

Goku was continually being pushed past his max limits by someone so much stronger in Jiren.

Goku was constantly being forced to surpass his limits in such a short amount of time. It all came to a breaking point for the legendary Son Goku

With all that in mind, it still took Goku 3 separate Omen awakening, and another huge event (which with air in 129) to unlock the MUI transformation.

Goku was clearly being built up to this. It was forshadowed. It didn't come out of no where. It was acfually handled brilliantly by Toriyama/Toei

The whole concept and execution around Goku's Omen awakenings and MUI transformation has actually been one of the greatest most logical handled, well built things in all of Dragon Ball IMO

I'm going to have to agree with HeroR in that I hope Berus actually masters it (in response to Goku mastering it) before Vegeta every gets it. I actually love that idea.

Very nice idea HeroR: )

It would actually be incredibly awesome if Goku schooled Berus in a rematch when the next series returned...and it forces Berus to get off his lazy ass and actually start training hard for once lol

Berus should be the next ally of Son Goku to master UI, not Vegeta IMO
Last edited by ZenkaiBoosts on Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:54 pm

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Doubt beerus will ever master it. He had millions of years to try. The only reason goku did it it’s because goku is an outlier, or in other words, the main character. Vegeta mastering it could be possible. Anyway we have heroes. If there is no UI vegeta in the anime, heroes will most likely give vegeta the form
Well for one, Berus is incredibly lazy and spends most of his time sleeping lol.

How much actual training time has Berus spent on training, let alone on training UI specifically? You're talking about very little. If barely anything at all

Btw, I would love to see some backstory on what Berus is. He must be from a race of incredibly strong fighters to be that strong, and especially with how little he trains

At the end of the day, all the training in the world can not simply compare to the experiences and growth of a real live fight

Berus had no one to push him past his limits like Goku

Goku gained the new MUI form out of an instinctual need to survive during live battle while the stakes werr at their highest possible (not only you getting erased - your whole universe getting erased).

Goku was continually being pushed past his max limits by someone so much stronger in Jiren.

Goku was constantly being forced to surpass his limits in such a short amount of time. It all came to a breaking point for the legendary Son Goku

With all that in mind, it still took Goku 3 separate Omen awakening, and another huge event (which with air in +29) to unlock the MUI transformation.

Goku was clearly being built up to this. It was forshadowed. It didn't come out of no where. Ut was acfually handled brilliantly by Toriyama/Toei

The whole concept and execution around Goku's Omen awakenings and MUI transformation has actually been one of the greatest most logical handled, well built things in all of Dragon Ball IMO

I'm going to have to agree with HeroR in that I hope Berus actually masters it (in response to Goku mastering it) before Vegeta every gets it. I actually love that idea.

Very nice idea HeroR: )

It would actually be incredibly awesome if Goku schooled Berus in a rematcg when the next series returned...and it forces Berus to get off his lazy ass and actually start training hard for once lol

Berus should be the next ally of Son Goku to master UI, not Vegeta
Cool imagination. Tho you and I both know that will never happen, not because it’s silly, but because toriyama will never do that.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:08 pm

HeroR wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:[

Ehhh, maybe. Generally Toriyama has been keeping Vegeta on equal footing with Goku recently (the anime kinda messed with this by not giving Vegeta something to match Kaioken for a long time), but he could always get something else that makes him as strong as UI, but he has to manually dodge everything like when he dodged Jiren's punches. Maybe with that limitation Vegeta's own "thing" could be stronger than UI, but Goku is overall better due to his auto dodging and such. I can't see Vegeta being left in the dust for long, so I think he'll either get UI before too long or get something else to at least put him in that realm.
Except Toriyama allowed Toei to used Blue Kaioken, so he wasn’t that keen keeping them equal. Especially since both the anima and manga suggested that Goku for reasons was 10x stronger than Vegeta. The anime did this by making Goku stronger, while the manga weakened Vegeta with him losing 90% of his power. So in it was in the outline that Goku was stronger. There’s also the Future Trunks Saga where apperently, Goku soloed Merged Zamasu in Toriyama’s version. Overall, it seems like they’re equal, but not really.

Vegeta really just did a version of what Goku did to Hit. He observed and used what he saw to see through Jiren’s attacks. Can Vegeta get a form physically stronger than UI, it’s hard to say since we don’t know much about Goku’s form. Like why did it give him UI and turn his hair silver upon mastering it?

And the Dragon Ball manga ended with Vegeta being a form behind Goku and EOZ strongly implied he never bridged the gap. So I can see Toriyama basically doing the same thing. Overall, I see a Super Saiyan 4 situation. He may get UI, but it isn’t in the near future.
You are quickly becoming one of my favorite posters here.

You truly know what you're talking about and bring the actual facts to the discussion

Really enjoy reading your informative posts: )

Another absolutely great post: ) Very well stated

Honestly, it's transparent and annoying. When ever anyone didnt personally like something from the anime, it's always "oh it was a Toei invention. It wasn't a Toriyama thing"

Yet there's actual evidence to support that the anime follows Toriyama's transcripts much more closely - and that the anime has many more Toriyama exclusive things in it (like the book of Namek of legends which everyone assumed was "a Toei thing" )

In fact Toriyama did NOT want a SSgod Vegeta. Toriyama DID NOT want Vegetto to appear in the future Trunks arc. Those were all Toyotaro exclusive things for his manga adaption (I'm glad Toei stopped giving Toyotrao any more say over the anime)

Imagine if it was revealed that those were Toei exclusive things though?

We know for a fact that at the very least Toriyama APPROVED SSBKK and was ok with it.


Considering how Goku SSBKK had more follow up episodes and a follow up mini-arc (about Goku's hilarious energy disorder) that tells us for a fact SSBKK was always planned...

That this ridiculous notion that Toei just added that in to pull Goku ahead or sell merchandise was never the case

I mean, all the humor and gags around Goku SSBKK causing Goku an energy disorder was all classic Toriyama

I believe Goku SSBKK (and Goku pulling ahead of Vegeta) was always in Toriyama's transcripts based on everything

Goku and Vegeta always being forced artificial equals is something Toyotrao has more tried to shove down our throat. Glad the Toriyama/Toei anime finally stopped with that.

Btw, reminds me, remember when Goku tried to use Instant transmition, and due to the energy disorder from the effects of SSBKK, teleports to Bulma's house instead

Goku arrives as Bulma had just gotten out of the shower. She freaks out. Vegeta is like what's a matter with you Kakarot. Goku tells Bulma in front of Vegeta "I didn't come here just to see your boobs. Yours are too saggy now"

Haha that was funny and again total classic Toriyama. SSBKK was always a planned thing. And at the very worst, Toriyama still APPROVED it, and liked it.

https://youtu.be/gsglakl9ei8
Last edited by ZenkaiBoosts on Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:10 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Doubt beerus will ever master it. He had millions of years to try. The only reason goku did it it’s because goku is an outlier, or in other words, the main character. Vegeta mastering it could be possible. Anyway we have heroes. If there is no UI vegeta in the anime, heroes will most likely give vegeta the form
Well for one, Berus is incredibly lazy and spends most of his time sleeping lol.

How much actual training time has Berus spent on training, let alone on training UI specifically? You're talking about very little. If barely anything at all

Btw, I would love to see some backstory on what Berus is. He must be from a race of incredibly strong fighters to be that strong, and especially with how little he trains

At the end of the day, all the training in the world can not simply compare to the experiences and growth of a real live fight

Berus had no one to push him past his limits like Goku

Goku gained the new MUI form out of an instinctual need to survive during live battle while the stakes werr at their highest possible (not only you getting erased - your whole universe getting erased).

Goku was continually being pushed past his max limits by someone so much stronger in Jiren.

Goku was constantly being forced to surpass his limits in such a short amount of time. It all came to a breaking point for the legendary Son Goku

With all that in mind, it still took Goku 3 separate Omen awakening, and another huge event (which with air in +29) to unlock the MUI transformation.

Goku was clearly being built up to this. It was forshadowed. It didn't come out of no where. Ut was acfually handled brilliantly by Toriyama/Toei

The whole concept and execution around Goku's Omen awakenings and MUI transformation has actually been one of the greatest most logical handled, well built things in all of Dragon Ball IMO

I'm going to have to agree with HeroR in that I hope Berus actually masters it (in response to Goku mastering it) before Vegeta every gets it. I actually love that idea.

Very nice idea HeroR: )

It would actually be incredibly awesome if Goku schooled Berus in a rematcg when the next series returned...and it forces Berus to get off his lazy ass and actually start training hard for once lol

Berus should be the next ally of Son Goku to master UI, not Vegeta
Cool imagination. Tho you and I both know that will never happen, not because it’s silly, but because toriyama will never do that.
Do you mean he will never have Goku beating Berus?

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Kaiosama » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:28 pm

Unfortunately the status quo demands that Goku be superior to Vegeta.I don't see Vegeta getting UI. It's not in his fighting nature because he thinks too much. His Beyond Blue Form is nothing compared to UI Omen and UI, so he will never be able to touch Goku again without some ass pull. Vegeta matching Beerus is probably a more achievable goal for him at this point.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:17 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Doubt beerus will ever master it. He had millions of years to try. The only reason goku did it it’s because goku is an outlier, or in other words, the main character. Vegeta mastering it could be possible. Anyway we have heroes. If there is no UI vegeta in the anime, heroes will most likely give vegeta the form
Well for one, Berus is incredibly lazy and spends most of his time sleeping lol.

How much actual training time has Berus spent on training, let alone on training UI specifically? You're talking about very little. If barely anything at all

Btw, I would love to see some backstory on what Berus is. He must be from a race of incredibly strong fighters to be that strong, and especially with how little he trains

At the end of the day, all the training in the world can not simply compare to the experiences and growth of a real live fight

Berus had no one to push him past his limits like Goku

Goku gained the new MUI form out of an instinctual need to survive during live battle while the stakes were at their highest possible (not only you getting erased - your whole universe getting erased).

Goku was continually being pushed past his max limits by someone so much stronger in Jiren.

Goku was constantly being forced to surpass his limits in such a short amount of time. It all came to a breaking point for the legendary Son Goku

With all that in mind, it still took Goku 3 separate Omen awakening, and another huge event (which with air in 129) to unlock the MUI transformation.

Goku was clearly being built up to this. It was forshadowed. It didn't come out of no where. It was acfually handled brilliantly by Toriyama/Toei

The whole concept and execution around Goku's Omen awakenings and MUI transformation has actually been one of the greatest most logical handled, well built things in all of Dragon Ball IMO

I'm going to have to agree with HeroR in that I hope Berus actually masters it (in response to Goku mastering it) before Vegeta every gets it. I actually love that idea.

Very nice idea HeroR: )

It would actually be incredibly awesome if Goku schooled Berus in a rematch when the next series returned...and it forces Berus to get off his lazy ass and actually start training hard for once lol

Berus should be the next ally of Son Goku to master UI, not Vegeta IMO
His name is Beerus, not Berus.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:02 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Legion wrote:No. And super is ending, deal with it guys. Now we only have movies and oav.
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Nope. The series is ending for good. And it really doesn’t matter if vegeta doesn’t catch up, cause there’s more to his character than just power.
Seeing people say "It's definetely over! is equally as annoying as the people who say "It will definetely come back!" . Just stop, nobody can predict the future
We can’t predict it, but sometimes we don’t have to when the future is stated (super ending).
And my point is that vegeta has more to his character other than power. I think that’s what matters
It's stated that Super is ending but my point was that we don't know if it'll come back or not... Because we really don't. Super ending doesn't mean no DB series again forever, but it also doesn't mean it will come back. Agree on the Vegeta point though
Get Fucked, C_unt

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Issei189 » Sat Feb 24, 2018 4:04 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
HeroR wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:[

Ehhh, maybe. Generally Toriyama has been keeping Vegeta on equal footing with Goku recently (the anime kinda messed with this by not giving Vegeta something to match Kaioken for a long time), but he could always get something else that makes him as strong as UI, but he has to manually dodge everything like when he dodged Jiren's punches. Maybe with that limitation Vegeta's own "thing" could be stronger than UI, but Goku is overall better due to his auto dodging and such. I can't see Vegeta being left in the dust for long, so I think he'll either get UI before too long or get something else to at least put him in that realm.
Except Toriyama allowed Toei to used Blue Kaioken, so he wasn’t that keen keeping them equal. Especially since both the anima and manga suggested that Goku for reasons was 10x stronger than Vegeta. The anime did this by making Goku stronger, while the manga weakened Vegeta with him losing 90% of his power. So in it was in the outline that Goku was stronger. There’s also the Future Trunks Saga where apperently, Goku soloed Merged Zamasu in Toriyama’s version. Overall, it seems like they’re equal, but not really.

Vegeta really just did a version of what Goku did to Hit. He observed and used what he saw to see through Jiren’s attacks. Can Vegeta get a form physically stronger than UI, it’s hard to say since we don’t know much about Goku’s form. Like why did it give him UI and turn his hair silver upon mastering it?

And the Dragon Ball manga ended with Vegeta being a form behind Goku and EOZ strongly implied he never bridged the gap. So I can see Toriyama basically doing the same thing. Overall, I see a Super Saiyan 4 situation. He may get UI, but it isn’t in the near future.
You are quickly becoming one of my favorite posters here.

You truly know what you're talking about and bring the actual facts to the discussion

Really enjoy reading your informative posts: )

Another absolutely great post: ) Very well stated

Honestly, it's transparent and annoying. When ever anyone didnt personally like something from the anime, it's always "oh it was a Toei invention. It wasn't a Toriyama thing"

Yet there's actual evidence to support that the anime follows Toriyama's transcripts much more closely - and that the anime has many more Toriyama exclusive things in it (like the book of Namek of legends which everyone assumed was "a Toei thing" )

In fact Toriyama did NOT want a SSgod Vegeta. Toriyama DID NOT want Vegetto to appear in the future Trunks arc. Those were all Toyotaro exclusive things for his manga adaption (I'm glad Toei stopped giving Toyotrao any more say over the anime)

Imagine if it was revealed that those were Toei exclusive things though?

We know for a fact that at the very least Toriyama APPROVED SSBKK and was ok with it.


Considering how Goku SSBKK had more follow up episodes and a follow up mini-arc (about Goku's hilarious energy disorder) that tells us for a fact SSBKK was always planned...

That this ridiculous notion that Toei just added that in to pull Goku ahead or sell merchandise was never the case

I mean, all the humor and gags around Goku SSBKK causing Goku an energy disorder was all classic Toriyama

I believe Goku SSBKK (and Goku pulling ahead of Vegeta) was always in Toriyama's transcripts based on everything

Goku and Vegeta always being forced artificial equals is something Toyotrao has more tried to shove down our throat. Glad the Toriyama/Toei anime finally stopped with that.

Btw, reminds me, remember when Goku tried to use Instant transmition, and due to the energy disorder from the effects of SSBKK, teleports to Bulma's house instead

Goku arrives as Bulma had just gotten out of the shower. She freaks out. Vegeta is like what's a matter with you Kakarot. Goku tells Bulma in front of Vegeta "I didn't come here just to see your boobs. Yours are too saggy now"

Haha that was funny and again total classic Toriyama. SSBKK was always a planned thing. And at the very worst, Toriyama still APPROVED it, and liked it.

https://youtu.be/gsglakl9ei8
That was the notion because If Goku was suppose to be ahead of Vegeta then why didn't Toyotaro make his SSB stronger than Vegeta's or give him Mastered SSB during the U6 vs U7 tournament ? I mean Toriyama reviews toyotaro's work every month and he also provides suggestions. He could have corrected Toyo if his interpretation was
wrong

The only time Goku was really stronger than Vegeta was against MZ since Toyo told us that Goku vs MZ was the main battle in Toriyama's outline

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Mercenary » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:42 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
HeroR wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:[

Ehhh, maybe. Generally Toriyama has been keeping Vegeta on equal footing with Goku recently (the anime kinda messed with this by not giving Vegeta something to match Kaioken for a long time), but he could always get something else that makes him as strong as UI, but he has to manually dodge everything like when he dodged Jiren's punches. Maybe with that limitation Vegeta's own "thing" could be stronger than UI, but Goku is overall better due to his auto dodging and such. I can't see Vegeta being left in the dust for long, so I think he'll either get UI before too long or get something else to at least put him in that realm.
Except Toriyama allowed Toei to used Blue Kaioken, so he wasn’t that keen keeping them equal. Especially since both the anima and manga suggested that Goku for reasons was 10x stronger than Vegeta. The anime did this by making Goku stronger, while the manga weakened Vegeta with him losing 90% of his power. So in it was in the outline that Goku was stronger. There’s also the Future Trunks Saga where apperently, Goku soloed Merged Zamasu in Toriyama’s version. Overall, it seems like they’re equal, but not really.

Vegeta really just did a version of what Goku did to Hit. He observed and used what he saw to see through Jiren’s attacks. Can Vegeta get a form physically stronger than UI, it’s hard to say since we don’t know much about Goku’s form. Like why did it give him UI and turn his hair silver upon mastering it?

And the Dragon Ball manga ended with Vegeta being a form behind Goku and EOZ strongly implied he never bridged the gap. So I can see Toriyama basically doing the same thing. Overall, I see a Super Saiyan 4 situation. He may get UI, but it isn’t in the near future.
You are quickly becoming one of my favorite posters here.

You truly know what you're talking about and bring the actual facts to the discussion

Really enjoy reading your informative posts: )

Another absolutely great post: ) Very well stated

Honestly, it's transparent and annoying. When ever anyone didnt personally like something from the anime, it's always "oh it was a Toei invention. It wasn't a Toriyama thing"

Yet there's actual evidence to support that the anime follows Toriyama's transcripts much more closely - and that the anime has many more Toriyama exclusive things in it (like the book of Namek of legends which everyone assumed was "a Toei thing" )

In fact Toriyama did NOT want a SSgod Vegeta. Toriyama DID NOT want Vegetto to appear in the future Trunks arc. Those were all Toyotaro exclusive things for his manga adaption (I'm glad Toei stopped giving Toyotrao any more say over the anime)

Imagine if it was revealed that those were Toei exclusive things though?

We know for a fact that at the very least Toriyama APPROVED SSBKK and was ok with it.


Considering how Goku SSBKK had more follow up episodes and a follow up mini-arc (about Goku's hilarious energy disorder) that tells us for a fact SSBKK was always planned...

That this ridiculous notion that Toei just added that in to pull Goku ahead or sell merchandise was never the case

I mean, all the humor and gags around Goku SSBKK causing Goku an energy disorder was all classic Toriyama

I believe Goku SSBKK (and Goku pulling ahead of Vegeta) was always in Toriyama's transcripts based on everything

Goku and Vegeta always being forced artificial equals is something Toyotrao has more tried to shove down our throat. Glad the Toriyama/Toei anime finally stopped with that.

Btw, reminds me, remember when Goku tried to use Instant transmition, and due to the energy disorder from the effects of SSBKK, teleports to Bulma's house instead

Goku arrives as Bulma had just gotten out of the shower. She freaks out. Vegeta is like what's a matter with you Kakarot. Goku tells Bulma in front of Vegeta "I didn't come here just to see your boobs. Yours are too saggy now"

Haha that was funny and again total classic Toriyama. SSBKK was always a planned thing. And at the very worst, Toriyama still APPROVED it, and liked it.

https://youtu.be/gsglakl9ei8
I swear to God, you are the biggest Vegeta hater I've ever seen.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Legion » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:06 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Doubt beerus will ever master it. He had millions of years to try. The only reason goku did it it’s because goku is an outlier, or in other words, the main character. Vegeta mastering it could be possible. Anyway we have heroes. If there is no UI vegeta in the anime, heroes will most likely give vegeta the form
Well for one, Berus is incredibly lazy and spends most of his time sleeping lol.

How much actual training time has Berus spent on training, let alone on training UI specifically? You're talking about very little. If barely anything at all

Btw, I would love to see some backstory on what Berus is. He must be from a race of incredibly strong fighters to be that strong, and especially with how little he trains

At the end of the day, all the training in the world can not simply compare to the experiences and growth of a real live fight

Berus had no one to push him past his limits like Goku

Goku gained the new MUI form out of an instinctual need to survive during live battle while the stakes werr at their highest possible (not only you getting erased - your whole universe getting erased).

Goku was continually being pushed past his max limits by someone so much stronger in Jiren.

Goku was constantly being forced to surpass his limits in such a short amount of time. It all came to a breaking point for the legendary Son Goku

With all that in mind, it still took Goku 3 separate Omen awakening, and another huge event (which with air in +29) to unlock the MUI transformation.

Goku was clearly being built up to this. It was forshadowed. It didn't come out of no where. Ut was acfually handled brilliantly by Toriyama/Toei

The whole concept and execution around Goku's Omen awakenings and MUI transformation has actually been one of the greatest most logical handled, well built things in all of Dragon Ball IMO

I'm going to have to agree with HeroR in that I hope Berus actually masters it (in response to Goku mastering it) before Vegeta every gets it. I actually love that idea.

Very nice idea HeroR: )

It would actually be incredibly awesome if Goku schooled Berus in a rematcg when the next series returned...and it forces Berus to get off his lazy ass and actually start training hard for once lol

Berus should be the next ally of Son Goku to master UI, not Vegeta
Cool imagination. Tho you and I both know that will never happen, not because it’s silly, but because toriyama will never do that.
Not really, if we'll have another series (which i doubt, but whatever) it can happen. Ultra instinct will become another super saiyan, as usual.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Logania » Sat Feb 24, 2018 7:26 am

As cool as Ultra Instinct is, I really don't want Vegeta to have it, or at least have it ONLY because Goku has it.

An issue I always had with Vegeta is that he's always playing catch up, always saying "When's Vegeta going to get ___ too?" Why get excited when he gets a new form finally when we've seen Goku have it and use it for awhile, kinda loses the hype a bit.

A good progression with Super is that finally Goku and Vegeta were at equal footing getting SSJB at the same time and not having to wait until next arc and get his Super Saiyan Hand-Me-Downs. Plus now finally he's got his very own form that even Goku doesn't have! He's finally not on the same route as Goku and can truly shine in his own light in terms of transformations.

He never seemed interested much in getting Ultra Instinct in the first place. Sure he was training with Whis and such, but after listening to his explanation of it he never really mentions it ever again. Usually when he wants something, you're damn sure gonna hear this man monologue in his head and make that his driving goal. Sure he tried to unlock it for a short bit after being a bit jealous of Goku during his bout with Kefla but shortly after he doesn't want to bother, which isn't in his arrogant nature. He will do whatever it takes to get the power he wants but this time not so much.

Just make his new Limit Breaker form he has keep getting progress and evolutions like Goku does, they've been pulling forms and power ups all through the series ass so far, so why stop now? They're finally making Vegeta stray into his own character instead of just a "rival" and I don't want them to back track into old habits again, they've done that enough in Super.
"I can't increase my ability through some kind of noisy transformation the way Frost and you Saiyans do. If I wanna become more lethal, I don't have the luxury of cutting corners, I just have to do it the old-fashioned way.

Combat is craft. What matters most is not raw power, but the skill by which you hone it."

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by HeroR » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:40 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
HeroR wrote:
ArchedThunder wrote:[

Ehhh, maybe. Generally Toriyama has been keeping Vegeta on equal footing with Goku recently (the anime kinda messed with this by not giving Vegeta something to match Kaioken for a long time), but he could always get something else that makes him as strong as UI, but he has to manually dodge everything like when he dodged Jiren's punches. Maybe with that limitation Vegeta's own "thing" could be stronger than UI, but Goku is overall better due to his auto dodging and such. I can't see Vegeta being left in the dust for long, so I think he'll either get UI before too long or get something else to at least put him in that realm.
Except Toriyama allowed Toei to used Blue Kaioken, so he wasn’t that keen keeping them equal. Especially since both the anima and manga suggested that Goku for reasons was 10x stronger than Vegeta. The anime did this by making Goku stronger, while the manga weakened Vegeta with him losing 90% of his power. So in it was in the outline that Goku was stronger. There’s also the Future Trunks Saga where apperently, Goku soloed Merged Zamasu in Toriyama’s version. Overall, it seems like they’re equal, but not really.

Vegeta really just did a version of what Goku did to Hit. He observed and used what he saw to see through Jiren’s attacks. Can Vegeta get a form physically stronger than UI, it’s hard to say since we don’t know much about Goku’s form. Like why did it give him UI and turn his hair silver upon mastering it?

And the Dragon Ball manga ended with Vegeta being a form behind Goku and EOZ strongly implied he never bridged the gap. So I can see Toriyama basically doing the same thing. Overall, I see a Super Saiyan 4 situation. He may get UI, but it isn’t in the near future.
You are quickly becoming one of my favorite posters here.

You truly know what you're talking about and bring the actual facts to the discussion

Really enjoy reading your informative posts: )

Another absolutely great post: ) Very well stated

Honestly, it's transparent and annoying. When ever anyone didnt personally like something from the anime, it's always "oh it was a Toei invention. It wasn't a Toriyama thing"

Yet there's actual evidence to support that the anime follows Toriyama's transcripts much more closely - and that the anime has many more Toriyama exclusive things in it (like the book of Namek of legends which everyone assumed was "a Toei thing" )

In fact Toriyama did NOT want a SSgod Vegeta. Toriyama DID NOT want Vegetto to appear in the future Trunks arc. Those were all Toyotaro exclusive things for his manga adaption (I'm glad Toei stopped giving Toyotrao any more say over the anime)

Imagine if it was revealed that those were Toei exclusive things though?

We know for a fact that at the very least Toriyama APPROVED SSBKK and was ok with it.


Considering how Goku SSBKK had more follow up episodes and a follow up mini-arc (about Goku's hilarious energy disorder) that tells us for a fact SSBKK was always planned...

That this ridiculous notion that Toei just added that in to pull Goku ahead or sell merchandise was never the case

I mean, all the humor and gags around Goku SSBKK causing Goku an energy disorder was all classic Toriyama

I believe Goku SSBKK (and Goku pulling ahead of Vegeta) was always in Toriyama's transcripts based on everything

Goku and Vegeta always being forced artificial equals is something Toyotrao has more tried to shove down our throat. Glad the Toriyama/Toei anime finally stopped with that.

Btw, reminds me, remember when Goku tried to use Instant transmition, and due to the energy disorder from the effects of SSBKK, teleports to Bulma's house instead

Goku arrives as Bulma had just gotten out of the shower. She freaks out. Vegeta is like what's a matter with you Kakarot. Goku tells Bulma in front of Vegeta "I didn't come here just to see your boobs. Yours are too saggy now"

Haha that was funny and again total classic Toriyama. SSBKK was always a planned thing. And at the very worst, Toriyama still APPROVED it, and liked it.

https://youtu.be/gsglakl9ei8
I have little doubt Blue Kaioken was Toei's idea that Toriyama approved of, but it was an extremely well thought out one since it's based on Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan being a calm form, which was in Toriyama's notes for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the Resurrection 'F' movie. Namely, he wrote he made the form blue to show Goku's newfound calmness. Goku getting sick was just a way to explained why Goku did used it to stomp Black in the Future Trunks Saga.

I am not getting into who's closer to Toriyama's version since in the end, it really doesn't matter. Toriyama doesn't have monopoly on good ideas and he can have bad ones just like anyone else. I think people are too obsessed over this outline that no one here has ever seen and it boils down to most of the time 'I like this idea, so it must be Toriyama' or 'I hate this idea, so must be Toei'. Overall, Toriyama doesn't mind people taking liberties with his work and even encouraged it in the case of Toyo, making the 'sticking true to the outline' even more moot.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by HeroR » Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:42 am

Issei189 wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Except Toriyama allowed Toei to used Blue Kaioken, so he wasn’t that keen keeping them equal. Especially since both the anima and manga suggested that Goku for reasons was 10x stronger than Vegeta. The anime did this by making Goku stronger, while the manga weakened Vegeta with him losing 90% of his power. So in it was in the outline that Goku was stronger. There’s also the Future Trunks Saga where apperently, Goku soloed Merged Zamasu in Toriyama’s version. Overall, it seems like they’re equal, but not really.

Vegeta really just did a version of what Goku did to Hit. He observed and used what he saw to see through Jiren’s attacks. Can Vegeta get a form physically stronger than UI, it’s hard to say since we don’t know much about Goku’s form. Like why did it give him UI and turn his hair silver upon mastering it?

And the Dragon Ball manga ended with Vegeta being a form behind Goku and EOZ strongly implied he never bridged the gap. So I can see Toriyama basically doing the same thing. Overall, I see a Super Saiyan 4 situation. He may get UI, but it isn’t in the near future.
You are quickly becoming one of my favorite posters here.

You truly know what you're talking about and bring the actual facts to the discussion

Really enjoy reading your informative posts: )

Another absolutely great post: ) Very well stated

Honestly, it's transparent and annoying. When ever anyone didnt personally like something from the anime, it's always "oh it was a Toei invention. It wasn't a Toriyama thing"

Yet there's actual evidence to support that the anime follows Toriyama's transcripts much more closely - and that the anime has many more Toriyama exclusive things in it (like the book of Namek of legends which everyone assumed was "a Toei thing" )

In fact Toriyama did NOT want a SSgod Vegeta. Toriyama DID NOT want Vegetto to appear in the future Trunks arc. Those were all Toyotaro exclusive things for his manga adaption (I'm glad Toei stopped giving Toyotrao any more say over the anime)

Imagine if it was revealed that those were Toei exclusive things though?

We know for a fact that at the very least Toriyama APPROVED SSBKK and was ok with it.


Considering how Goku SSBKK had more follow up episodes and a follow up mini-arc (about Goku's hilarious energy disorder) that tells us for a fact SSBKK was always planned...

That this ridiculous notion that Toei just added that in to pull Goku ahead or sell merchandise was never the case

I mean, all the humor and gags around Goku SSBKK causing Goku an energy disorder was all classic Toriyama

I believe Goku SSBKK (and Goku pulling ahead of Vegeta) was always in Toriyama's transcripts based on everything

Goku and Vegeta always being forced artificial equals is something Toyotrao has more tried to shove down our throat. Glad the Toriyama/Toei anime finally stopped with that.

Btw, reminds me, remember when Goku tried to use Instant transmition, and due to the energy disorder from the effects of SSBKK, teleports to Bulma's house instead

Goku arrives as Bulma had just gotten out of the shower. She freaks out. Vegeta is like what's a matter with you Kakarot. Goku tells Bulma in front of Vegeta "I didn't come here just to see your boobs. Yours are too saggy now"

Haha that was funny and again total classic Toriyama. SSBKK was always a planned thing. And at the very worst, Toriyama still APPROVED it, and liked it.

https://youtu.be/gsglakl9ei8
That was the notion because If Goku was suppose to be ahead of Vegeta then why didn't Toyotaro make his SSB stronger than Vegeta's or give him Mastered SSB during the U6 vs U7 tournament ? I mean Toriyama reviews toyotaro's work every month and he also provides suggestions. He could have corrected Toyo if his interpretation was
wrong

The only time Goku was really stronger than Vegeta was against MZ since Toyo told us that Goku vs MZ was the main battle in Toriyama's outline
Mastered Blue is only thing in the manga the same way Blue Kaioken is only a thing in the anime. There is also the fact that in both versions of the Hit fight, Goku was stated to be stronger than Vegeta by ten times. The anime made Goku stronger, while the manga nerf Vegeta, but it amount to the same thing. For one reason or another, Goku was stronger than Vegeta when they fought Hit.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:32 am

HeroR wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Except Toriyama allowed Toei to used Blue Kaioken, so he wasn’t that keen keeping them equal. Especially since both the anima and manga suggested that Goku for reasons was 10x stronger than Vegeta. The anime did this by making Goku stronger, while the manga weakened Vegeta with him losing 90% of his power. So in it was in the outline that Goku was stronger. There’s also the Future Trunks Saga where apperently, Goku soloed Merged Zamasu in Toriyama’s version. Overall, it seems like they’re equal, but not really.

Vegeta really just did a version of what Goku did to Hit. He observed and used what he saw to see through Jiren’s attacks. Can Vegeta get a form physically stronger than UI, it’s hard to say since we don’t know much about Goku’s form. Like why did it give him UI and turn his hair silver upon mastering it?

And the Dragon Ball manga ended with Vegeta being a form behind Goku and EOZ strongly implied he never bridged the gap. So I can see Toriyama basically doing the same thing. Overall, I see a Super Saiyan 4 situation. He may get UI, but it isn’t in the near future.
You are quickly becoming one of my favorite posters here.

You truly know what you're talking about and bring the actual facts to the discussion

Really enjoy reading your informative posts: )

Another absolutely great post: ) Very well stated

Honestly, it's transparent and annoying. When ever anyone didnt personally like something from the anime, it's always "oh it was a Toei invention. It wasn't a Toriyama thing"

Yet there's actual evidence to support that the anime follows Toriyama's transcripts much more closely - and that the anime has many more Toriyama exclusive things in it (like the book of Namek of legends which everyone assumed was "a Toei thing" )

In fact Toriyama did NOT want a SSgod Vegeta. Toriyama DID NOT want Vegetto to appear in the future Trunks arc. Those were all Toyotaro exclusive things for his manga adaption (I'm glad Toei stopped giving Toyotrao any more say over the anime)

Imagine if it was revealed that those were Toei exclusive things though?

We know for a fact that at the very least Toriyama APPROVED SSBKK and was ok with it.


Considering how Goku SSBKK had more follow up episodes and a follow up mini-arc (about Goku's hilarious energy disorder) that tells us for a fact SSBKK was always planned...

That this ridiculous notion that Toei just added that in to pull Goku ahead or sell merchandise was never the case

I mean, all the humor and gags around Goku SSBKK causing Goku an energy disorder was all classic Toriyama

I believe Goku SSBKK (and Goku pulling ahead of Vegeta) was always in Toriyama's transcripts based on everything

Goku and Vegeta always being forced artificial equals is something Toyotrao has more tried to shove down our throat. Glad the Toriyama/Toei anime finally stopped with that.

Btw, reminds me, remember when Goku tried to use Instant transmition, and due to the energy disorder from the effects of SSBKK, teleports to Bulma's house instead

Goku arrives as Bulma had just gotten out of the shower. She freaks out. Vegeta is like what's a matter with you Kakarot. Goku tells Bulma in front of Vegeta "I didn't come here just to see your boobs. Yours are too saggy now"

Haha that was funny and again total classic Toriyama. SSBKK was always a planned thing. And at the very worst, Toriyama still APPROVED it, and liked it.

https://youtu.be/gsglakl9ei8
I have little doubt Blue Kaioken was Toei's idea that Toriyama approved of, but it was an extremely well thought out one since it's based on Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan being a calm form, which was in Toriyama's notes for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the Resurrection 'F' movie. Namely, he wrote he made the form blue to show Goku's newfound calmness. Goku getting sick was just a way to explained why Goku did used it to stomp Black in the Future Trunks Saga.

I am not getting into who's closer to Toriyama's version since in the end, it really doesn't matter. Toriyama doesn't have monopoly on good ideas and he can have bad ones just like anyone else. I think people are too obsessed over this outline that no one here has ever seen and it boils down to most of the time 'I like this idea, so it must be Toriyama' or 'I hate this idea, so must be Toei'. Overall, Toriyama doesn't mind people taking liberties with his work and even encouraged it in the case of Toyo, making the 'sticking true to the outline' even more moot.
Well yeah.. we already know that Toei sends scripts to Toriyama and that any changes Toei wants to implement always get approved by Toriyama first and foremost

At the very least, SSBKK was approved by Toriyama. Thats a fact.

However in my opinion I firmly believe SSBKK was in Toriyama's outlines from the start. Just speculation, like your speculation, but regardless Toei executes on Toriyama's outlines with great emph. Its a great relationship.

In general, I dont like how theres this on going narrative that the manga is "more canon" (the notion of "more canon" is ridicilous) And how anything the manga does is "great" while anything Toei does is "bad and only for a cash in"

This is supposed to be a group of knowledgable fans. It astounds me that such blind ignorance is never adressed/corrected.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by HeroR » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:41 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote: Well yeah...we already know that Toei sends scripts to Toriyama and that any changes Toei wants to implement always get approved by Toriyama first and foremost

I said that at the very least, SSBKK was approved by Toriyama. Thats a fact.

However in my opinion I firmly believe SSBKK was in Toriyama's outlines from the start. Toei executes on Toriyama's outlines with great emph. Its a great relationship.

In general, I dont like how theres this on going narrative that the manga is "more canon" (the notion of "more canon" is ridicilous) And how anything the manga does is "great" while anything Toei does is "bad and only for a cash in"

This is supposed to be a group of knowledgable fans. It astounds me that such blind ignorance is never adressed/corrected.
Never said otherwise. Anything that ends up in either the anime or manga is approved by Toriyama. We know that as a fact.

I don't think it was in the outline since there was an utter lack of marketing behind it. Blue Kaioken came out of nowhere with no media pushed. Compared that to others forms we know know Toriyama created like Black Rose and UI. Blue Kaioken is in the same boat as Super Saiyan God Vegeta.

Unfortunately, that's a thing with Dragon Ball fans. They think whatever version they like better is more 'canon' when the truth is, both of them are 'canon'. I don't care for the manga at all, but the events of it are canon to Toyo's version of Super and Toriyama approved of it. Doesn't mean I have to liked it since as I said, not everything Toriyama writes or approved of are automatically good, even if I think Toriyama gets more right than wrong.

Kanzenshuu Dragon Ball fans for the most part are.....extremely bias against Toei. Has been long before Super. Some of it is justified, while another part is just willful ignorance.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Rebel Instinct » Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:53 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:Yet there's actual evidence to support that the anime follows Toriyama's transcripts much more closely - and that the anime has many more Toriyama exclusive things in it (like the book of Namek of legends which everyone assumed was "a Toei thing" )
Care to cite any of that actual evidence beyond the Namekian Book of Legends? Where did you read that the anime follows Toriyama's scripts "much more closely" and has "many more Toriyama exclusive things in it" compared to the manga? Please link the interviews and official statements that substantiate these claims. Personal interpretation doesn't count.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:In fact Toriyama did NOT want a SSgod Vegeta. Toriyama DID NOT want Vegetto to appear in the future Trunks arc. Those were all Toyotaro exclusive things for his manga adaption (I'm glad Toei stopped giving Toyotrao any more say over the anime)
When did Toei announce that they stopped allowing Toyotaro's ideas to influence the anime? I don't remember hearing that. Also. who could forget that pesky manga exclusive Vegito who totally didn't appear in the anime too! :roll: It's also great how every time you insist on bringing this up, you always try to frame these two additions as if Toriyama hated these ideas and Toyotaro forced him into accepting them against his will and completely ignoring the interview where Toriyama gleefully accepted both of them.

Toyotaro: Goku and Vegeta didn't fuse in the original draft. Their personalities made any fusion after the Majin Buu arc impossible. However, I wanted to meet the readers' expectations... And so, I made a scenario where "even if they shouldn't really fuse, now they have absolutely no choice but to fuse".

Toriyama: I think it was good!

Toyotaro: That's why I thought and thought until the rough draft came together... It was the most fun and also the most stressful time. But once that got the OK, it was a fun job after that!

Toriyama: Most of the time I gave the rough drafts for the "Future Trunks Arc" the OK right off the bat!

---

Interviewer: Super Saiyan God Vegeta likewise only appeared in the manga version.

Toriyama: I supervised that. I remember (laughs). It was fun to see Toyotaro-sensei's ideas start coming out more and more.


Source: https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/927844658801025025
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:We know for a fact that at the very least Toriyama APPROVED SSBKK and was ok with it.
You mean just like SSG Vegeta and Vegito Blue were?
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:Considering how Goku SSBKK had more follow up episodes and a follow up mini-arc (about Goku's hilarious energy disorder) that tells us for a fact SSBKK was always planned...
It tells us "for a fact"? Even without seeing the draft, you know for a fact that SSB Kaio-ken was planned by Toriyama from the very start? That sounds an awful lot like an unsubstantiated assumption to me... :think:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:I believe Goku SSBKK (and Goku pulling ahead of Vegeta) was always in Toriyama's transcripts based on everything

Goku and Vegeta always being forced artificial equals is something Toyotrao has more tried to shove down our throat. Glad the Toriyama/Toei anime finally stopped with that.
Which official announcement said they put a stop to Toyotaro's influence on the anime again? I must have totally missed that one. I'd really like to read it if it exists.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:SSBKK was always a planned thing. And at the very worst, Toriyama still APPROVED it, and liked it.
You got a source on how far back Toriyama had SSB Kaio-ken planned? It must have been way before he approved SSG Vegeta and added Vegito Blue to his official outline...

Forgive my uncharacteristically snarky behavior but this is exasperating. How many times are you planning on pushing this anime-centric agenda? You're completely bent on denying every shred of information that doesn't conform to your biases, constantly inventing "facts" to "prove" your claims with zero official sources to back them up and ignoring most of the interviews posted to show you what really goes on between Toriyama, Toei and Toyotaro. I just can't understand it when you've been given multiple official sources multiple times.
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:This is supposed to be a group of knowledgable fans. It astounds me that such blind ignorance is never adressed/corrected.
Perhaps the reason some of these "incorrect" views are never "corrected" by the knowledgeable fans is because they aren't actually incorrect...
The post-Super fandom has ruined my love for Dragon Ball.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by ZenkaiBoosts » Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:24 am

HeroR wrote:
ZenkaiBoosts wrote: Well yeah...we already know that Toei sends scripts to Toriyama and that any changes Toei wants to implement always get approved by Toriyama first and foremost

I said that at the very least, SSBKK was approved by Toriyama. Thats a fact.

However in my opinion I firmly believe SSBKK was in Toriyama's outlines from the start. Toei executes on Toriyama's outlines with great emph. Its a great relationship.

In general, I dont like how theres this on going narrative that the manga is "more canon" (the notion of "more canon" is ridicilous) And how anything the manga does is "great" while anything Toei does is "bad and only for a cash in"

This is supposed to be a group of knowledgable fans. It astounds me that such blind ignorance is never adressed/corrected.
Never said otherwise. Anything that ends up in either the anime or manga is approved by Toriyama. We know that as a fact.

I don't think it was in the outline since there was an utter lack of marketing behind it. Blue Kaioken came out of nowhere with no media pushed. Compared that to others forms we know know Toriyama created like Black Rose and UI. Blue Kaioken is in the same boat as Super Saiyan God Vegeta.

Unfortunately, that's a thing with Dragon Ball fans. They think whatever version they like better is more 'canon' when the truth is, both of them are 'canon'. I don't care for the manga at all, but the events of it are canon to Toyo's version of Super and Toriyama approved of it. Doesn't mean I have to liked it since as I said, not everything Toriyama writes or approved of are automatically good, even if I think Toriyama gets more right than wrong.

Kanzenshuu Dragon Ball fans for the most part are.....extremely bias against Toei. Has been long before Super. Some of it is justified, while another part is just willful ignorance.
I dont mind the bias. Just be positive about what you like.

The problem is that the pro-manga crowd tear down the anime to try and prop up the manga, and thats the kind of bias that is an issue. Being simply biased about something you like and are simply just positive about is always ok. We all have our favorites.

My issue is with things like. "The manga is more canon"...."everything I dislike was a Toei's decision" etc etc

You can point to many examples where the opposite has proven to be true

And to the people who prefer the manga, thats ok. Nothing against that.

But just because you prefer the manga that doesnt mean Toyotaro gets a free pass for everything.

The manga has many issues. In fact I would say being forgettable is the biggest crime. Its like the concept of love/hate. Whether you love or hate something you are still feeling emotion/you are still invested.

Toyotaro's manga is just there. Its indifference. He never takes any risks. Never does anything that stands out or is exciting. Toyotaro's manga just feels meh/like a forgettable afterthought. I have given the Super manga many chances. Its just so boring. I want it to be better

If Toyotaro worked at Toei, you think he would still be liked on the forum?

Toyotaro has great art, but hes widely known for being terrible at story telling/writing/character interactions/character momemts/emotive scenes.

Even though animation and music always win for me (nothing trumps beng able to watch in motion) I actually dont mind mangas in general. I think Toyotaro is simply a terribly generic forgettable writer who is not good at story telling, and thats what hurts my enjoyment of the Super manga adaption/afterthought. The anime is already great/epic/entertaining/exciting..I want a manga that is better that supplements it

Anyway, episodes are planned well in advance. So the fact Goku's energy disorder episodes ( classic Toriyama humor) were ready to go, that means SSBKK was always a planned thing. It was not something added in at the last minute to sell merch or anything. Thats something we can factually say

Like we both agreed, ultimately it doesnt matter whether it was in Toriyama's outlines because at the very least, Toriyama approved it well in advance. Personally I just really feel it was in Toriyama's outlines. Hopefully we find out exact specifics one day

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Rebel Instinct » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:30 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:The problem is that the pro-manga crowd tear down the anime to try and prop up the manga, and thats the kind of bias that is an issue
ZenkaiBoosts wrote:Toyotaro's manga is just there. Its indifference. He never takes any risks. Never does anything that stands out or is exciting. Toyotaro's manga just feels meh/like a forgettable afterthought.

Toyotaro has great art, but hes widely known for being terrible at story telling/writing/character interactions/character momemts/emotive scenes.

Even though animation and music always win for me (nothing trumps beng able to watch in motion) I actually dont mind mangas in general. I think Toyotaro is simply a terribly generic forgettable writer who is not good at story telling, and thats what hurts my enjoyment of the Super manga adaption/afterthought. The anime is already great/epic/entertaining/exciting..
I'll take "Obvious Double Standards?" for $500, Alex.
The post-Super fandom has ruined my love for Dragon Ball.

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Re: Vegeta's power in comparison to Goku (possible spoilers)

Post by Issei189 » Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:35 am

ZenkaiBoosts wrote:Toyotaro's manga is just there. Its indifference. He never takes any risks. Never does anything that stands out or is exciting. Toyotaro's manga just feels meh/like a forgettable afterthought.

Toyotaro has great art, but hes widely known for being terrible at story telling/writing/character interactions/character momemts/emotive scenes.

Even though animation and music always win for me (nothing trumps beng able to watch in motion) I actually dont mind mangas in general. I think Toyotaro is simply a terribly generic forgettable writer who is not good at story telling, and thats what hurts my enjoyment of the Super manga adaption/afterthought. The anime is already great/epic/entertaining/exciting..
Now you just went against your own word. I understand that you're annoyed because some people always bash the anime for the sake of complaining and it pisses me off too, but you're showing the same kind of Bias now. The manga does fall flat compared to the Anime, but it's not completely ass as you're describing it to be. It does have good character interactions, moments and fights too. Saying the Anime is great makes you sound ignorant because it has many flaws itself.

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