Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

[Dbzfan94]

Yeah, they liked Gohan so much that Toriyama had to bring Goku back from the dead

Thats a rumor proven false many times.

[Vegeta_Sama]

Yeah, they liked Gohan so much that Toriyama had to bring Goku back from the dead

Thats a rumor proven false many times.

Whatever, that's not gonna change the fact that Goku is always gonna be in the spotlight in modern Dragon Ball, that's been established a long time ago. With the story we have right now it would make no sense for anyone else but Goku to obtain Ultra Instinct

[HeroR]

can be attained by any being

And yet, it just so happened that Toriyama/Toei wrote it so that only Goku attained it = just another transformation for Goku, right at the show's end for the time being. So yeah.

All the angels have it and can do it better than Goku. So it really isn't the same as Kaioken, whose own creator didn't even master it.

[Whatever]

There's no indication of that

Considering it changes his hair color after all,then yeah.

Maybe you don't realize how popular Goku really is since everyone here complains about him, but he's a cultural icon in Japan. The fans' outrage would be huge is he wasn't the one to get a brand new transformation. Besids, from a story telling point of view, it would be stupid as f to give Ultra Instinct to 17 or Piccolo. This form has been foreshadowed since RoF, by Whis to GOKU and VEGETA. Goku trained, and earned this form. What have Piccolo, Gohan, or 17 done to deserve a power stronger that the Gods?

Piccolo has trained his whole life and 17 has trained for years as well and its not like Goku got the form because of hard work,he got it because he bombed himself.
The problem is not Goku getting the form,the problem is if this silver haired form is indeed something non saiyan exclusive,why is one of the saiyans still the ones that get it?
Its pointless being non saiyan exclusive if the only ones who get it are the one of the saiyans.

Yeah, they liked Gohan so much that Toriyama had to bring Goku back from the dead

Outside of this being a proven false rumour.Turns out they really liked Gohan getting ssj2,who would have guessed?
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[HeroR]

There's no indication of that

Considering it changes his hair color after all,then yeah.

Maybe you don't realize how popular Goku really is since everyone here complains about him, but he's a cultural icon in Japan. The fans' outrage would be huge is he wasn't the one to get a brand new transformation. Besids, from a story telling point of view, it would be stupid as f to give Ultra Instinct to 17 or Piccolo. This form has been foreshadowed since RoF, by Whis to GOKU and VEGETA. Goku trained, and earned this form. What have Piccolo, Gohan, or 17 done to deserve a power stronger that the Gods?

Piccolo has trained his whole life and 17 has trained for years as well and its not like Goku got the form because of hard work,he got it because he bombed himself.
The problem is not Goku getting the form,the problem is if this silver haired form is indeed something non saiyan exclusive,why is one of the saiyans still the ones that get it?
Its pointless being non saiyan exclusive if the only ones who get it are the one of the saiyans.

Yeah, they liked Gohan so much that Toriyama had to bring Goku back from the dead

Outside of this being a proven false rumour.Turns out they really liked Gohan getting ssj2,who would have guessed?
[spoiler][/spoiler]

The poll was taking before Gohan got Super Saiyan 2 in the Cell Games.

[Marlowe89]

Throughout the original run, we get to be continuously surprised by the new shades of Goku, revealed through unexpected actions: The revelation that he's still trying to win the tournament while fighting Piccolo, even after training with God; letting Piccolo and Vegeta go for their rivalries; coming to terms with his Saiyan side, and his entire series of interactions with Freeza; choosing to let the androids activate, expressing a mix of dread and desire when Cell shows up; every choice he makes as a bored dead guy in the Boo arc that culminates in his arc finishing off with Oob.

If we're talking about character progression in its purest sense, I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Goku has shown plenty of these "shades" in Super -- killing Frieza after Whis gave him a second chance, eliminating himself during the U6 Tournament because Hit wasn't fighting at his fullest, agreeing to bring Frieza back from the dead to participate in the next tournament, and as you mentioned yourself, virtually everything involving the universal tournament at its basic premise -- all of which bring about surprising decisions rooted in Goku's rather simplistic personality traits and values. Although you could make the argument that these don't feel as "new" compared to the original run, I could just as easily argue that they didn't feel surprising when Goku spared Vegeta's life, when he allowed the androids to activate or when he followed through with a lot of his decisions during the Buu arc, since one could essentially encapsulate them as a sort of retread of previous intentions based on Goku's past behavior. It's not Goku's motives that ever really feel surprising; his role in Dragon Ball is unique for the precise reason that the actual surprises are, instead, his actions that result from those motives. To drive one of my previous examples home, I certainly don't think people were expecting him to simply step out of the ring after his battle against Hit, so I don't think it's exactly fair to insinuate that Super is divorced from the original series in that sense.

That being said, I would certainly agree that there's a lot to be desired from Toei's execution. For the most part, Toyotaro's rendition is a lot closer to what I'd expect these arcs to feel like if they were straight from Toriyama's pen. As for Toriyama's outlines themselves, though, I don't think they would feel at all out of place in 1995, and as others have already pointed out, if anything the narrative connectivity between these individual arcs has largely felt like an improvement from the rather disjointed nature of the original manga following Frieza's defeat on Namek.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Yeah, they liked Gohan so much that Toriyama had to bring Goku back from the dead

Thats a rumor proven false many times.

Whatever, that's not gonna change the fact that Goku is always gonna be in the spotlight in modern Dragon Ball, that's been established a long time ago. With the story we have right now it would make no sense for anyone else but Goku to obtain Ultra Instinct

I was just talking about this on merchandise thread but yeah Goku's popularity is legit insane. I always knew Goku was popular but the even the gap between him and Vegeta is huge let alone between the rest of the cast.

When DB ended Goku was the restored MC, and GT was basically Goku Time and then for years with games etc Goku was always marketed as the forefront of DB and so when DB got revived it made sense to keep Goku as the MC and now they're too deep to cut him away, hence why the ToP has been the Goku show for the majority.

Anyone who doesn't believe in Goku's popularity is really kidding themselves.

[HeroR]

Thats a rumor proven false many times.

Whatever, that's not gonna change the fact that Goku is always gonna be in the spotlight in modern Dragon Ball, that's been established a long time ago. With the story we have right now it would make no sense for anyone else but Goku to obtain Ultra Instinct

I was just talking about this on merchandise thread but yeah Goku's popularity is legit insane. I always knew Goku was popular but the even the gap between him and Vegeta is huge let alone between the rest of the cast.

When DB ended Goku was the restored MC, and GT was basically Goku Time and then for years with games etc Goku was always marketed as the forefront of DB and so when DB got revived it made sense to keep Goku as the MC and now they're too deep to cut him away, hence why the ToP has been the Goku show for the majority.

Anyone who doesn't believe in Goku's popularity is really kidding themselves.

Thing is, people blamed a lot of GT failure on being "Goku Time". From what I have observed, at least in Japan, GT issue wasn't Goku. It was the cast around him, namely Pan. If Goku was the primary issue in that series, Super Saiyan 4 Goku wouldn't be selling so freaking much and you hardly see Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta by comparison.

[Cipher]

That being said, I would certainly agree that there's a lot to be desired from Toei's execution. For the most part, Toyotaro's rendition is a lot closer to what I'd expect these arcs to feel like if they were straight from Toriyama's pen. As for Toriyama's outlines themselves, though, I don't think they would feel at all out of place in 1995, and as others have already pointed out, if anything the narrative connectivity between these individual arcs has largely felt like an improvement from the rather disjointed nature of the original manga following Frieza's defeat on Namek.

Agreed enough with this part that I don't think it's worth nitpicking the former.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Whatever, that's not gonna change the fact that Goku is always gonna be in the spotlight in modern Dragon Ball, that's been established a long time ago. With the story we have right now it would make no sense for anyone else but Goku to obtain Ultra Instinct

I was just talking about this on merchandise thread but yeah Goku's popularity is legit insane. I always knew Goku was popular but the even the gap between him and Vegeta is huge let alone between the rest of the cast.

When DB ended Goku was the restored MC, and GT was basically Goku Time and then for years with games etc Goku was always marketed as the forefront of DB and so when DB got revived it made sense to keep Goku as the MC and now they're too deep to cut him away, hence why the ToP has been the Goku show for the majority.

Anyone who doesn't believe in Goku's popularity is really kidding themselves.

Thing is, people blamed a lot of GT failure on being "Goku Time". From what I have observed, at least in Japan, GT issue wasn't Goku. It was the cast around him, namely Pan. If Goku was the primary issue in that series, Super Saiyan 4 Goku wouldn't be selling so freaking much and you hardly see Super Saiyan 4 Vegeta by comparison.

They know they're market for GT aka hardcore fans they're bringing out a big SS4 Goku figure for a prize lottery in August but each ticket costs ¥15,000!! (You're guaranteed a figure but it will be one of 4 colour variants).

Though it'll probably be under the DBS brand as they've been releasing a lot of GT lately under it. Just to keep confusing people, I guess.

[precita]

If you watch Super directly after watching the Buu saga, then no it doesn't feel like it flows perfectly. All the building up of Gohan, Trunks, Goten in the Buu arc is suddenly gone and Goku gets this God power out of nowhere.

[Neon Z]

If you watch Super directly after watching the Buu saga, then no it doesn't feel like it flows perfectly. All the building up of Gohan, Trunks, Goten in the Buu arc is suddenly gone and Goku gets this God power out of nowhere.

That happens in the Buu Saga itself though, especially when they don't bring them to join the final battle against Kid Buu. Look at all that high school cast introduced around Gohan that then are just forgotten by the end of the Buu Saga since he wasn't the protagonist anymore.

[Lord Beerus]

If you watch Super directly after watching the Buu saga, then no it doesn't feel like it flows perfectly. All the building up of Gohan, Trunks, Goten in the Buu arc is suddenly gone and Goku gets this God power out of nowhere.

That happens in the Buu Saga itself though, especially when they don't bring them to join the final battle against Kid Buu. Look at all that high school cast introduced around Gohan that then are just forgotten by the end of the Buu Saga since he wasn't the protagonist anymore.

Yeah, Toriyama himself pulled the rug from the under the new generation's feet in the very arc they were supposed to be the main focus of.

[supersaiyanZero]

I think the the idea of anybody defending Super's story and writing is a little ridiculous to be honest. Dragonball Z wasn't Shakespeare by any stretch of the imagination, but there is a clear difference between the flow and structure of developing a story between the two. What I find the funniest is posts that say "Well, I've lowered my expectations and so should you, if you lower them its quite enjoyable". Like, really? I mean FFS they couldn't even setup your the most cliche, checkmark your boxes antagonist in this arc.