Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

[Doctor.]

Despite Toriyama 'writing' it, it has no direction or vision. At this point it's more of an advertisement to sell toys and merchandise than anything else. Selling merch was always a byproduct of Dragon Ball's stories, now it seems to be its main objective.

[ToshioWrites]

The story is Goku fights strong person, goku gets new form, new form sells merchandise. Repeat process

[Asura]

It never had direction or vision to begin with. Toriyama mostly made shit up as he went along.

[supersaiyanZero]

It never had direction or vision to begin with. Toriyama mostly made shit up as he went along.

But even with Toriyama's writing by the seat of your pants style, seemed to be a somewhat cohesive narrative, along with little arcs for each of the characters that were developed along the course of the story. It was clear that Toriyama at least had a vision for where he wanted some of these characters to go and was committed to developing them. All that has been thrown out the window for the sake of one gigantic, mediocre toy commercial.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

This is a stupid misconception that needs to die already. Merch is still a byproduct of DB, barely anything from DBS has even been merch'd. Wasn't Kale supposed to Mrs.Merch? Yeah nothing, nothing for Trunks or Vegeta's new form, barely anything or U6. Sure Goku's new form is getting merch'd but it's to be expected especially when the show is literally ending. Hell Vegetto Blue was directly Toyo's idea had it been Toei how much hate would they be getting? We'd be getting silly comments like this "only did it to sell toys". SSG Goku again barely merch'd despite even making an anime come back. Why didn't any other Saiyan get SSG/SSGSS if the main objective truly is too "sell as much merch" as possible? Why didn't Gohan get a new form then? Then barely any fighters or gods from ToP have been merch'd at all, exception Jiren, then mouse GoD and Bergamo both got a mini key chain figure, that's it.

Whether you like it or not every decision in DBS has been a creative one.

It never had direction or vision to begin with. Toriyama mostly made shit up as he went along.

But even with Toriyama's writing by the seat of your pants style, seemed to be a somewhat cohesive narrative, along with little arcs for each of the characters that were developed along the course of the story. It was clear that Toriyama at least had a vision for where he wanted some of these characters to go and was committed to developing them. All that has been thrown out the window for the sake of one gigantic, mediocre toy commercial.

Android arc onwards is not "cohesive" at all. Part way through the Buu arc any "development" for Gohan/Goten/Trunks were dropped, what resolution was there to their arcs? None.

[wolflonnie]

This is a stupid misconception that needs to die already. Merch is still a byproduct of DB, barely anything from DBS has even been merch'd. Wasn't Kale supposed to Mrs.Merch? Yeah nothing, nothing for Trunks or Vegeta's new form, barely anything or U6. Sure Goku's new form is getting merch'd but it's to be expected especially when the show is literally ending. Hell Vegetto Blue was directly Toyo's idea had it been Toei how much hate would they be getting? We'd be getting silly comments like this "only did it to sell toys". SSG Goku again barely merch'd despite even making an anime come back. Why didn't any other Saiyan get SSG/SSGSS if the main objective truly is too "sell as much merch" as possible? Why didn't Gohan get a new form then? Then barely any fighters or gods from ToP have been merch'd at all, exception Jiren, then mouse GoD and Bergamo both got a mini key chain figure, that's it.

Whether you like it or not every decision in DBS has been a creative one.

It never had direction or vision to begin with. Toriyama mostly made shit up as he went along.

But even with Toriyama's writing by the seat of your pants style, seemed to be a somewhat cohesive narrative, along with little arcs for each of the characters that were developed along the course of the story. It was clear that Toriyama at least had a vision for where he wanted some of these characters to go and was committed to developing them. All that has been thrown out the window for the sake of one gigantic, mediocre toy commercial.

Android arc onwards is not "cohesive" at all. Part way through the Buu arc any "development" for Gohan/Goten/Trunks were dropped, what resolution was there to their arcs? None.

Thank you.

To be fair, DBS feels like a story even more than DBZ. Now come at me.

[precita]

Not really. The concepts of Gods was good and the Zamasu arc was nice, but since then nothing really happened.

[Cetra]

Dragon Ball never felt like it had a story if you are a massive Role-Playing Game fan, which I am. Which is why I always trust Toei for that when it comes to Dragon Ball and why I like their Zamasu saga so much.

[precita]

All of DBZ's arcs written by Toriyama had a conscience narrative, even if he was making it up as he went along.

[Bullza]

How does it not have a direction when this saga is connected to the Universe 6 saga? Which was itself connected to the Resurrection F saga with Champa running around.

Ultra Instinct also goes back to the Resurrection F saga. They aren't just random separate events.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

It is more nostalgia driven then ever. It is ridiculous how much fanservice they have thrown in DBS. Although to be fair, it all started from F. I dunno if its Toriyama or the production committee members or both, but yeah I can totally see and even agree to an extent why you might think the show has had no vision at all. It is totally a nostalgia first, story/characters second formula type franchise now imo.

[8bitdee]

Despite Toriyama 'writing' it, it has no direction or vision. At this point it's more of an advertisement to sell toys and merchandise than anything else. Selling merch was always a byproduct of Dragon Ball's stories, now it seems to be its main objective.

You only say that because you probably watched DBZ when you were too young to realize that this was always the case. Were DBZ to be aired today for the very first time, you'd see that its constant existence, despite having many clear endings where it could've just stopped, was due to its popularity that drove merchandise sales.

[fadeddreams5]

Despite Toriyama 'writing' it, it has no direction or vision. At this point it's more of an advertisement to sell toys and merchandise than anything else. Selling merch was always a byproduct of Dragon Ball's stories, now it seems to be its main objective.

You only say that because you probably watched DBZ when you were too young to realize that this was always the case. Were DBZ to be aired today for the very first time, you'd see that its constant existence, despite having many clear endings where it could've just stopped, was due to its popularity that drove merchandise sales.

Well, that's what he means when he wrote that selling merch was a byproduct of the stories. The anime was based on a manga created by a guy who I'm sure could give two ****s about merchandising. He literally created the SSJ form because making the hair blond made it easier for him to draw, IIRC. Furthermore, DBZ is not a thing in the manga; it's simply Dragon Ball. It just so happens a lot of concepts introduced by the Saiyan and Namek sagas made this merchandising heaven, but at its core, the series wasn't created purely for the sake of selling stuff.

Super has created unnecessary transformation after transformation for no reason--many of which don't even appear in the series' manga. Selling products based on this show seems to be the focal point, especially considering the inconsistent writing and animation.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Despite Toriyama 'writing' it, it has no direction or vision. At this point it's more of an advertisement to sell toys and merchandise than anything else. Selling merch was always a byproduct of Dragon Ball's stories, now it seems to be its main objective.

You only say that because you probably watched DBZ when you were too young to realize that this was always the case. Were DBZ to be aired today for the very first time, you'd see that its constant existence, despite having many clear endings where it could've just stopped, was due to its popularity that drove merchandise sales.

Well, that's what he means when he wrote that selling merch was a byproduct of the stories. The anime was based on a manga created by a guy who I'm sure could give two ****s about merchandising. He literally created the SSJ form because making the hair blond made it easier for him to draw, IIRC. Furthermore, DBZ is not a thing in the manga; it's simply Dragon Ball. It just so happens a lot of concepts introduced by the Saiyan and Namek sagas made this merchandising heaven, but at its core, the series wasn't created purely for the sake of selling stuff.

Super has created unnecessary transformation after transformation for no reason--many of which don't even appear in the series' manga. Selling products based on this show seems to be the focal point, especially considering the inconsistent writing and animation.

Oh really then explain why Vegeta and Trunks new form never got marketed or merched? Explain why the Manga has SSG Vegeta then? When does inconsistent writing & animation = made to sell toys? The main manga/series was exactly the same.

I'm still waiting for all the Kale merch that was gonna happen that people were screaming about and the only reason she was in the show? I'll be 1.5 years and the only significant thing she'd have gotten is one mini figure... Yeah so they totally forced Kale into DBS so they can sell one figure?

The fact DBS is ending just rubbishes this dumb idea itself.

[mute_proxy]

I agree with OP's point of view. I think if the show wasnt written and directed by different people each episode, and there was a single clear direction and script, things would be a lot better. Now it just a lot of randomness that lead to some kind of conclusion.

[Doctor.]

Despite Toriyama 'writing' it, it has no direction or vision. At this point it's more of an advertisement to sell toys and merchandise than anything else. Selling merch was always a byproduct of Dragon Ball's stories, now it seems to be its main objective.

You only say that because you probably watched DBZ when you were too young to realize that this was always the case. Were DBZ to be aired today for the very first time, you'd see that its constant existence, despite having many clear endings where it could've just stopped, was due to its popularity that drove merchandise sales.

I hate this argument. "You can't point out the differences between Super and Z because nostalgia." No. I got into DB late. I don't have nostalgia for the series.

DB wad Toriyama's story. Super is the fans'.

[TBMx]

Feels like a bunch of Goku wank.

[Hawk9211]

Transformation are only because the show is running purely on flash.I mean we have a game built around fusion.Broly is the most popular movie character.Dbs manga is often critisised for having less hype(flash).

[Cipher]

It never had direction or vision to begin with. Toriyama mostly made shit up as he went along.

The difference is that he used to "make shit up" with the freedom of an open canvas, a willingness to be iconoclastic and treat the characters sincerely—including aging them up against his editor's urging—and was able to constantly weave interesting character arcs into his crazy action because he's evidently a natural storyteller even when flying by the seat of his pants (and indeed his anything-goes, write-week-to-week model is probably responsible for a lot of the series' charm).

To answer the thread: No, and it hasn't since Super took the approach of the continuous serial midquel. These characters have had their arcs finished for twenty years, bookended by events set before and after the new material we're watching. This wouldn't preclude Super from adding some genuine progression or thematic wrinkle to the story, but it does make it more difficult. Every time it's threatened to do so, though, the following episodes have marched it right back. The plots are fine as one-off extra adventures as Toyotaro's manga prevents them (and as Resurrection "F" did before), but that still isn't the same kind of story the original run constantly managed, in spite of itself, to tell.

That's a problem baked into the basic approach, but elements of Toei's specific execution—their reliance on homages to previous material from key scenes to dialogue references to designs, and inconsistent treatment of characters from week to week—have certainly exacerbated it.

[Lord Beerus]

Dragon Ball is about the battles, and sometimes adventures, of a martial artist named Son Goku and some of his allies. That's really what Dragon Ball boils to. Nothing more and nothing less. There are plenty of moments where story arcs in Dragon Ball could have ended prematurely if the cast thought rationally and with more caution but that wouldn't make for the most entertaining scenario for Toriyama or whoever is behind the wheel of a story in Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball is all about finding any kind of excuse to prolong the spectacle of combatants fighting each other in high stakes competition, and in some cases, fighting each other to death. How much mileage you may get out that is to your discretion. But let not act as if some of the narrative choices in Dragon Ball in the past haven't ether felt spontaneous or felt as if they were driven by personal preferences. Super is no better or worse than the stories we've come across in Dragon Ball before. A enemy appears or a tournament suddenly happens, and Son Goku with a few select allies react to that event in the way they know best: throwing fisticuffs and hoping for the best battle and personal outcome.