Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by Cipher » Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:25 am

Lord Beerus wrote:Dragon Ball is about the battles, and sometimes adventures, of a martial artist named Son Goku and some of his allies. That's really what Dragon Ball boils to. Nothing more and nothing less. There are plenty of moments where story arcs in Dragon Ball could have ended prematurely if the cast thought rationally and with more caution but that wouldn't make for the most entertaining scenario for Toriyama or whoever is behind the wheel of a story in Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball is all about finding any kind of excuse to prolong the spectacle of combatants fighting each other in high stakes competition, and in some cases, fighting each other to death. How much mileage you may get out that is to your discretion. But let not act as if some of the narrative choices in Dragon Ball in the past haven't ether felt spontaneous or felt as if they were driven by personal preferences. Super is no better or worse than the stories we've come across in Dragon Ball before. A enemy appears or a tournament suddenly happens, and Son Goku with a few select allies react to that event in the way they know best: throwing fisticuffs and hoping for the best battle and personal outcome.
It did always feel spontaneous, and prone to the whims of its author's personal amusement. I wouldn't have it any other way.

But there's no arc in the original run where you can look back at the end and feel the characters haven't grown. I can pretty easily do that with Super (Trunks aside, and he's a guest; the main characters are static and locked into arcs outlined and finished two decades prior).

Dragon Ball is about whimsy, and adventure, and fighting, and narratives held together with Scotch tape, but somehow it always managed to tell a story through that in spite of itself, if only because Toriyama knew no other way. I'd be about half as likely to recommend or come back to it if that weren't the case.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by Lord Beerus » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:35 am

Cipher wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Dragon Ball is about the battles, and sometimes adventures, of a martial artist named Son Goku and some of his allies. That's really what Dragon Ball boils to. Nothing more and nothing less. There are plenty of moments where story arcs in Dragon Ball could have ended prematurely if the cast thought rationally and with more caution but that wouldn't make for the most entertaining scenario for Toriyama or whoever is behind the wheel of a story in Dragon Ball. Dragon Ball is all about finding any kind of excuse to prolong the spectacle of combatants fighting each other in high stakes competition, and in some cases, fighting each other to death. How much mileage you may get out that is to your discretion. But lets not act as if some of the narrative choices in Dragon Ball in the past haven't ether felt spontaneous or felt as if they were driven by personal preferences. Super is no better or worse than the stories we've come across in Dragon Ball before. A enemy appears or a tournament suddenly happens, and Son Goku with a few select allies react to that event in the way they know best: throwing fisticuffs and hoping for the best battle and personal outcome.
It did always feel spontaneous, and prone to the whims of its author's personal amusement. I wouldn't have it any other way.

But there's no arc in the original run where you can look back at the end and feel the characters haven't grown. I can pretty easily do that with Super (Trunks aside, and he's a guest; the main characters are static and locked into arcs outlined and finished two decades prior).

Dragon Ball is about whimsy, and adventure, and fighting, and narratives held together with Scotch tape, but somehow it always managed to tell a story through that in spite of itself, if only because Toriyama knew no other way. I'd be about half as likely to recommend or come back to it if that weren't the case.
To play devil's advocate, in terms of character growth, the placement of Super's story in the grand narrative of Dragon Ball was in the most incompatible period. Because as you referred to, some of the main cast have already either finished their character arcs prior to Super's inception or there is already an endgame for them in place after Super. But even then, I'm more than willing to admit that, despite how much I like Super, the handling of some of the cast left a lot to be desired. With Goten, Trunks, Gohan and Videl being the most jarring cases of Toei, Toriyama and Toyotaro collectively scratching their heads and going, "Oh no... what do we do with this guy?" And Krillin being the most notable case of a character that didn't need any more character development but Super still gave it to him...but tearing down his current characterization. Fucking awful idea.

That being said, I've still immensely enjoyed Vegeta's further progression with his characterisation, Beerus' character development over the course of the show has been spectacular, the return of #17 and Freeza breath wonderfully life back into their characters, new additions like Hit, Cabba, Kale and Brianne had subtle but significant growth in their personalities, Majin Boo's character moments (albeit being fluff) were fun to watch, and Goku is the same as he was since the Cell arc (in my opinion) so I don't really have that much to say about him.

The only character I really didn't know what to come to a conclusion on Gohan. He was just so... weirdly handled in Super. It's like they wanted to do something big with him but would get cold feet every time.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by Cipher » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:52 am

Lord Beerus wrote:To play devil's advocate, in terms of character growth, the placement of Super's story in the grand narrative of Dragon Ball was in the most incompatible period. Because as you referred to, some of the main cast have already either finished their character arcs prior to Super's inception or there is already an endgame for them in place after Super. But even then, I'm more than willing to admit that, despite how much I like Super, the handling of some of the cast left a lot to be desired. With Goten, Trunks, Gohan and Videl being the most jarring cases of Toei, Toriyama and Toyotaro collectively scratching their heads and going, "Oh no... what do we do with this guy?" And Krillin being the most notable case of a character that didn't need any more character development but Super still gave it to him...but tearing down his current characterization. Fucking awful idea.

That being said, I've still immensely enjoyed Vegeta's further progression with his characterisation, Beerus' character development over the course of the show has been spectacular, the return of #17 and Freeza breath wonderfully life back into their characters, new additions like Hit, Cabba, Kale and Brianne had subtle but significant growth in their personalities, Majin Boo's character moments (albeit being fluff) were fun to watch, and Goku is the same as he was since the Cell arc (in my opinion) so I don't really have that much to say about him.

The only character I really didn't know what to come to a conclusion on Gohan. He was just so... weirdly handled in Super. It's like they wanted to do something big with him but would get cold feet every time.
It is hampered by its placement, as I alluded to last page, but regardless of the why, the result is that there's a noticeable difference in how the narrative progresses in the original run versus Super. (A sense of narrative being dependent on a sense of progression in its characters; otherwise it's all colors and sounds.)

In Vegeta's case, he hasn't so much gotten progression within Super's arcs as they've continuously found new ways to showcase the depth of the change catalyzed by the manga's final story. It's a nice illustration, and you can feel the weight of his progress from his introduction into the series to now, but little to none of it is the result of events witnessed in Super itself. He enters the Trunks arc as a reformed family man willing to fight for the good of others who still carries a high sense of pride, and ends the arc a reformed family man willing to fight for the good of others who still carries a high sense of pride. It's the same way he enters and exists Super. We don't witness of a moment of change as a result of these stories' events. That's all done by the Boo arc.

Like you, I could point to a number of side characters who, as a result of not being locked into their previously completed arcs, have gotten a bit of room to change and grow in unpredictable ways—Beerus, Trunks (who went from being a plot catalyst in the original run to getting a genuine arc and thematic purpose here), some of the players in the Tournament of Power, and what will be done with Freeza remains to be seen but is exciting—but the issue is that none of them are main characters. They aren't the ones the narrative centers on. (And as far as most of the ToP players, even those gestures toward arcs get derailed in about half the cases.)

All of the above can make for perfectly fine extra one-offs that don't carry the same burden of required progression and change, but for a terribly uncompelling long-running serial. That isn't how the original run operated.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by FortuneSSJ » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:54 pm

wolflonnie wrote: To be fair, DBS feels like a story even more than DBZ. Now come at me.
DBS actually has a better plot structure than DBZ, that's for sure. All the arcs have plot points that connect to each other.
In DBZ, Saiyan arc leads perfectly to Freeza arc but Cell and Buu arcs came from nowhere.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:56 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
wolflonnie wrote: To be fair, DBS feels like a story even more than DBZ. Now come at me.
DBS actually has a better plot structure than DBZ, that's for sure. All the arcs have plot points that connect to each other.
In DBZ, Saiyan arc leads perfectly to Freeza arc but Cell and Buu arcs came from nowhere.
The beginning of the Cell arc is directly connected to the end of the Freeza arc.

If you want to say that the RF arc and Champa arc connect to BoG and each-other because, I assume, Vegeta and Goku are training with Whis, then you can't possibly argue against this.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by Nero<>Akira » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:05 pm

Yes it does. I feel progression. How anyone can't blows my mind. It actually feels more cohesive than the original manga did after the Freeza arc. That's not to nag on the original series. I love Dragon Ball and stuff happens in it. And despite some inconsistencies in characters or dialogue or whatever, the story still feels like a complete narrative focused on getting most of its characters to get better than the original DB did at some point. Does it do everything we want or how we would have done it? No. A story shouldn't go how we expect it and I am quite sure NOBODY expected how Super was gonna go except that Goku and Jiren would be the final fight in this arc and any villain they came across would die at the end of the arc. How things happened being good or bad is up for discussion. But again, it does feel like a story. Super is an amalgamation of early Dragon Ball and later Dragon Ball and what we end up with is more of a traditional fantasy martial arts story with some side adventures and occasional sci fi. That's what i love about the show. Resurrection F was pretty bare bones, but it's pretty much a martial arts movie that so many people like except it being a Dragon Ball version (the F arc was just straight bad though with early parts being good). Super is Goku's (& Vegeta) martial arts progression leading him into his ascension into another plane of of existence and interacting with angels and gods that was already spearheaded in the original manga; it's just continuing off of that; it's Toriyama continuing his version of the legend of Sun Wukong; notice how the gods and angels are definitely not "good" beings.
Zamasu is the best DB villain besides Freeza (and this is only the case because the current Super arc elevated Freeza to be that good).

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by FortuneSSJ » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:05 pm

Doctor. wrote: The beginning of the Cell arc is directly connected to the end of the Freeza arc.
The plot struture is bad:

-The time travel concept had never been foreshadowed before.
-The SSJ Legend becomes a joke will all the living Saiyans get it, when in the arc before only a Saiyan in thousand years could become one.
- We are forced to believe there was a survivor scientist from Red Ribbon Army arc that has been spying Goku all this time and preparing his revenge, when he didn't even appeared once before.
Doctor. wrote: If you want to say that the RF arc and Champa arc connect to BoG and each-other because, I assume, Vegeta and Goku are training with Whis, then you can't possibly argue against this.
I can, because in BOG arc Champa/Vados alre already gathering he Super Dragon Balls, which also connects to Champa arc. There's nothing happening in Saiyan/Freeca arcs that leads to Cell/Buu arcs happening.
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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:08 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
Doctor. wrote: The beginning of the Cell arc is directly connected to the end of the Freeza arc.
The plot struture is bad:

-The time travel concept had never been foreshadowed before.
-The SSJ Legend becomes a joke will all the living Saiyans get it, when in the arc before only a Saiyan in thousand years could become one.
- We are forced to believe there was a survivor scientist from Red Ribbon Army arc that has been spying Goku all this time and preparing his revenge, when he didn't even appeared once before.
Sure, those are all bad plot points, but that has nothing to do with the arcs connecting to each-other, which was your point. Even if we talk about the premise of the arcs, the Cell arc's premise is certainly a lot more easy to buy than RoF's. Freeza is wished back by the Earth Dragon Balls, even though nobody notices it, and trains for 4 months to catch-up. How is that better?

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by FortuneSSJ » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:16 pm

Doctor. wrote: If you want to say that the RF arc and Champa arc connect to BoG and each-other because, I assume, Vegeta and Goku are training with Whis, then you can't possibly argue against this.
I can, because in BOG/ROF arcs Champa/Vados are already gathering the Super Dragon Balls, which also connects to Champa arc. There are events happening behind the scenes and the audience knows hat. There's nothing happening in Saiyan/Freeca arcs that leads to Cell/Buu arcs happening.
Doctor. wrote:Freeza is wished back by the Earth Dragon Balls, even though nobody notices it, and trains for 4 months to catch-up. How is that better?
I agree about that part, but we're already talking about power levels here. I didn't say I find stupid how Gero could create Cyborgs/Androids stronger than Super Saiyans and Freeza with earth technology, which I do.

About Freeza's revival itself, ROF main plot always felt like a filler between BOG/Champa arcs, but thanks to Universe Survival arc than brought Golden Freeza back it doesn't feel like that anymore.
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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:21 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:I can, because in BOG arc Champa/Vados alre already gathering he Super Dragon Balls, which also connects to Champa arc. There's nothing happening in Saiyan/Freeca arcs that leads to Cell/Buu arcs happening.
If you want to use such flimsy evidence like that, then the Goku v Freeza fight leads to Freeza getting sliced to bits on Earth by Trunks and the start of the Cell arc, and Goku dying vs Cell leads to him coming back to Earth for the tournament and the start of the Boo arc. The Super arcs may have ties to each-other, but none of them are directly caused by events that precede them. They are all self-contained.
FortuneSSJ wrote:I agree about that part, but we're already talking about power levels here. I didn't say I find stupid how Gero could create Cyborgs/Androids stronger than Super Saiyans and Freeza with earth technology, which I do.

About Freeza's revival itself, ROF main plot always felt like a filler between BOG/Champa arcs, but thanks to Universe Survival arc than brought Golden Freeza back it doesn't feel like that anymore.
It's not about powerlevels. You mentioned how the Super Saiyans became a joke, and I mentioned Freeza's training, which makes everyone who has ever trained to get stronger in this series a joke.

Yes, it does. It feels even more like filler considering you could cut out F from Super and Freeza's return would have more weight, a potential change of heart would be more believable and his strength boost would be more plausible.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by FortuneSSJ » Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:49 pm

Doctor. wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:I can, because in BOG arc Champa/Vados alre already gathering he Super Dragon Balls, which also connects to Champa arc. There's nothing happening in Saiyan/Freeca arcs that leads to Cell/Buu arcs happening.
If you want to use such flimsy evidence like that, then the Goku v Freeza fight leads to Freeza getting sliced to bits on Earth by Trunks and the start of the Cell arc, and Goku dying vs Cell leads to him coming back to Earth for the tournament and the start of the Boo arc. The Super arcs may have ties to each-other, but none of them are directly caused by events that precede them. They are all self-contained.
I feel like we are going in circles, Goku vs Freeza doesn't lead to FT Trunks vs Freeza because Freeza was assumed to be dead and the possibility of time travel had never been mentioned before, so FT Trunks and everything related to him feels like asspulls. Probably because that's what they are.

Same thing for Buu arc. Goku coming back for a Tournament, doesn't make Babidi/Buu plot and the introduction of more Gods believable, because once again the villain came from nowhere and the audience is forced to believe there are even more Gods above the ones we met before, with no prior mention of them.
Doctor. wrote: It's not about powerlevels. You mentioned how the Super Saiyans became a joke, and I mentioned Freeza's training, which makes everyone who has ever trained to get stronger in this series a joke.

Yes, it does. It feels even more like filler considering you could cut out F from Super and Freeza's return would have more weight, a potential change of heart would be more believable and his strength boost would be more plausible.
I mentioned that Super Saiyans become a joke, because in one arc it was all about a Legend that happens once in a millenium and only one Saiyan becomes SSJ, and then in the next arc there are 4 of them. Golden Freeza isn't connected to a Legend and he never trained before, so that make his transformation more belivable, considering how strong he was when he got introduced and the fact he's not a earthling.

Not every character needs to have a change of heart and Freeza is one of them. He's iconic because of the evil things he did.
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by Doctor. » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:03 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:I feel like we are going in circles, Goku vs Freeza doesn't lead to FT Trunks vs Freeza because Freeza was assumed to be dead and the possibility of time travel had never been mentioned before, so FT Trunks and everything related to him feels like asspulls. Probably because that's what they are.
Yes, but Goku was alive and returning to Earth. Which was Toriyama's way to segue into the next arc. If the arcs were disconnected as you claim, then Goku would have been teleported to Earth when they asked Porunga and THEN the next arc would start, when we thought everything was fine and there was no problem. Goku refusing and the series establishing a time period for his return already hints at what's coming.

I never argued that it was a good way to segue into the next arc. I'm making the argument that you can't ignore that it's there when you're saying that Champa collecting the SDBs somehow makes a good connection to the Champa arc.

Beerus comes "out of nowhere." Freeza's resurrection comes "out of nowhere." Black and Future Trunks come "out of nowhere."
FortuneSSJ wrote:I mentioned that Super Saiyans become a joke, because in one arc it was all about a legend that happens once in a millenium and only one Saiyan becomes SSJ, and then in the next arc there are 4 of them. Golden Freeza isn't connected to a Legend and he never trained before, so that make his transformation more belivable, considering how strong he was when he got introduced and the fact he's not a earthling.

Not every character needs to be have a change of heart and Freeza is one of them. He's iconic because of the evil things he did.
And Goku thought he could never achieve the realm of the Gods naturally, yet everyone suddenly did it. Hakai was supposed to be an energy source capable of destroying everything but Vegeta can punch it. I agree that Super Saiyan lost its value in the Cell arc, but can you really be throwing this criticism whilst trying to defend Super? The series that introduces a plot point only to devalue it in that same arc?

I never talked about him becoming good. Change of heart refers to him helping Goku & co.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by wolflonnie » Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:33 pm

FortuneSSJ wrote:
wolflonnie wrote: To be fair, DBS feels like a story even more than DBZ. Now come at me.
DBS actually has a better plot structure than DBZ, that's for sure. All the arcs have plot points that connect to each other.
In DBZ, Saiyan arc leads perfectly to Freeza arc but Cell and Buu arcs came from nowhere.
Yup! Not to mention that the plot isn't cut and dry like most of DBZ. Feels more like a story, than a survival against x enemy of the moment.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:12 pm

Doctor. wrote:
FortuneSSJ wrote:
wolflonnie wrote: To be fair, DBS feels like a story even more than DBZ. Now come at me.
DBS actually has a better plot structure than DBZ, that's for sure. All the arcs have plot points that connect to each other.
In DBZ, Saiyan arc leads perfectly to Freeza arc but Cell and Buu arcs came from nowhere.
The beginning of the Cell arc is directly connected to the end of the Freeza arc.

If you want to say that the RF arc and Champa arc connect to BoG and each-other because, I assume, Vegeta and Goku are training with Whis, then you can't possibly argue against this.
Freeza arc does lead into Android arc but only in the sense of completing a plot point (killing Freeza) but since we're told that Trunks didn't need to be there the connection sort of loses itself.

I do agree though regarding RF and Champa arc the connection between the two isn't strong in fact I'd barely call them connected* but fortunately the RF arc does connect later to the U.S arc. But other than that I say BoG to RF connects well, Champa to Trunks arc and Trunks arc to the U.S arc all connect relatively well.

*Ideally they should have had Champa train Freeza in order for Freeza to distract Beerus so Champa could continue running amuck looking for SDB's.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by Cipher » Tue Feb 20, 2018 7:46 pm

Nero<>Akira wrote:Yes it does. I feel progression. How anyone can't blows my mind. It actually feels more cohesive than the original manga did after the Freeza arc. That's not to nag on the original series. I love Dragon Ball and stuff happens in it. And despite some inconsistencies in characters or dialogue or whatever, the story still feels like a complete narrative focused on getting most of its characters to get better than the original DB did at some point. Does it do everything we want or how we would have done it? No. A story shouldn't go how we expect it and I am quite sure NOBODY expected how Super was gonna go except that Goku and Jiren would be the final fight in this arc and any villain they came across would die at the end of the arc. How things happened being good or bad is up for discussion. But again, it does feel like a story. Super is an amalgamation of early Dragon Ball and later Dragon Ball and what we end up with is more of a traditional fantasy martial arts story with some side adventures and occasional sci fi. That's what i love about the show. Resurrection F was pretty bare bones, but it's pretty much a martial arts movie that so many people like except it being a Dragon Ball version (the F arc was just straight bad though with early parts being good). Super is Goku's (& Vegeta) martial arts progression leading him into his ascension into another plane of of existence and interacting with angels and gods that was already spearheaded in the original manga; it's just continuing off of that; it's Toriyama continuing his version of the legend of Sun Wukong; notice how the gods and angels are definitely not "good" beings.
All of what comes after the first few sentences there is fine: I do feel that the ways in which Super's stories escalate, and even the specific ideas behind each arc, are perfectly coherent and fitting. It even, as you notrsd, maintains one of my favorites elements of the series in that you'd have to be some kind of savant to predict where each arc would end based on its beginnings. One of my biggest misgivings with Super has been the gap between its ideas and execution through Toei. Reduced to summary, it sounds fine.

But that's all plot and premise stuff. Character progression? Throughout the original run, we get to be continuously surprised by the new shades of Goku, revealed through unexpected actions: The revelation that he's still trying to win the tournament while fighting Piccolo, even after training with God; letting Piccolo and Vegeta go for their rivalries; coming to terms with his Saiyan side, and his entire series of interactions with Freeza; choosing to let the androids activate, expressing a mix of dread and desire when Cell shows up; every choice he makes as a bored dead guy in the Boo arc that culminates in his arc finishing off with Oob. At the same time, characters such as Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo, Kuririn, Tenshinhan—take your pick—also grow steadily each arc. The story offers glimpses into new eras of their lives with each news incident as well.

What in Super has been surprising? What's been new on a main character front, or a response to its events? The most I can think of is Goku's seeming complicity in the Tournament of Power flipping the script on Beerus—that was new and interesting, and had potential—but the series immediately backed away from it.

Goku and Vegeta in Super's final arc, power aside, are the same as they were when they walked in. Most of the cast is. Others, such as Gohan and Kuririn, have been given something to waffle over, but that doesn't feel sincere.

As a series of extra one offs, that's fine, and things build upon each other enough in terms of the plots to keep it engaging on that level. But as a long-running serial, one of the core components of narrative is missing, in a way it isn't in the original run.

Plot coherence is great and all (everything being a continuously rising set of stakes from interaction with these high gods), but it's a whole lot of nothing if the story beats aren't matched with surprising and interesting character ones.

Perhaps because of its placement as a miduel, perhaps because Toriyama isn't forcing himself to develop a narrative by scripting week to week—or some combination of the above—both versions of Super manage to offer up at least a little of every one of Dragon Ball's strengths except its sense of story and change.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:31 pm

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:
8bitdee wrote:
You only say that because you probably watched DBZ when you were too young to realize that this was always the case. Were DBZ to be aired today for the very first time, you'd see that its constant existence, despite having many clear endings where it could've just stopped, was due to its popularity that drove merchandise sales.
Well, that's what he means when he wrote that selling merch was a byproduct of the stories. The anime was based on a manga created by a guy who I'm sure could give two ****s about merchandising. He literally created the SSJ form because making the hair blond made it easier for him to draw, IIRC. Furthermore, DBZ is not a thing in the manga; it's simply Dragon Ball. It just so happens a lot of concepts introduced by the Saiyan and Namek sagas made this merchandising heaven, but at its core, the series wasn't created purely for the sake of selling stuff.

Super has created unnecessary transformation after transformation for no reason--many of which don't even appear in the series' manga. Selling products based on this show seems to be the focal point, especially considering the inconsistent writing and animation.
Oh really then explain why Vegeta and Trunks new form never got marketed or merched? Explain why the Manga has SSG Vegeta then? When does inconsistent writing & animation = made to sell toys? The main manga/series was exactly the same.

I'm still waiting for all the Kale merch that was gonna happen that people were screaming about and the only reason she was in the show? I'll be 1.5 years and the only significant thing she'd have gotten is one mini figure... Yeah so they totally forced Kale into DBS so they can sell one figure? :roll:

The fact DBS is ending just rubbishes this dumb idea itself.
It's not about an immediate selling of merchandise, but those things serve as leverage for them to capitalize on in the not so distant future, be it toys, shirts, or video games.

I never said inconsistent writing and animation = made to sell toys. But those things combined with the oversaturation of forms hint as to where the primary focus is. Unless the writers just have a trivial view as to what people expect from the series.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by Neon Z » Tue Feb 20, 2018 9:33 pm

I think what hurts Super is that Toriyama isn't writing it week by week reacting to other people and his own impression of his work, so he doesn't write the arc outlines with the same intention of gripping the audience chapter by chapter like what would happen with a manga.

I definitely disagree with the idea that it's written like a toy commercial though. Look at the most of the ToP before we were left with just U3 and 11. There were barely any episodes focused on hyped new characters or transformations, just random monster of the week stuff aside from a couple of exceptions like the Kale/Kefla episodes or the tv special. That would never happen in a modern merchandising driven series. They'd want to hype their products - either showing powerful antagonists beating the heroes if they're getting merchandising or hyping villains just to highlight more the hero that's defeating them afterwards. Just compare the number of power ups introduced in 50 episodes by a Digimon or Kamen Rider series with what we get in 50 episodes of Super.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by Totamo » Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:58 pm

Cipher wrote:
Asura wrote:It never had direction or vision to begin with. Toriyama mostly made shit up as he went along.
The difference is that he used to "make shit up" with the freedom of an open canvas, a willingness to be iconoclastic and treat the characters sincerely—including aging them up against his editor's urging—and was able to constantly weave interesting character arcs into his crazy action because he's evidently a natural storyteller even when flying by the seat of his pants (and indeed his anything-goes, write-week-to-week model is probably responsible for a lot of the series' charm).

To answer the thread: No, and it hasn't since Super took the approach of the continuous serial midquel. These characters have had their arcs finished for twenty years, bookended by events set before and after the new material we're watching. This wouldn't preclude Super from adding some genuine progression or thematic wrinkle to the story, but it does make it more difficult. Every time it's threatened to do so, though, the following episodes have marched it right back. The plots are fine as one-off extra adventures as Toyotaro's manga prevents them (and as Resurrection "F" did before), but that still isn't the same kind of story the original run constantly managed, in spite of itself, to tell.

That's a problem baked into the basic approach, but elements of Toei's specific execution—their reliance on homages to previous material from key scenes to dialogue references to designs, and inconsistent treatment of characters from week to week—have certainly exacerbated it.
Here is my problem about this question and your statement.


What is dragon ball's overall narrative? One piece is for Luffy to become the Pirate king. Naruto is for Him to become Hokage and Hunter hunter is for gon to meet his father.

Yes, sags tend to flow naturally and characters do grow but what are you they all trying us when placed together. What is the story of dragon ball as a whole? From chapter 1 to chapter 519 what is the point of it all?

The obvious answer: Its about son Goku becoming the strongest there is. thats the whole point of every single saga, goku facing challenges and gets more powerful than before. So long as every saga continues this theme, the story is being told.


Super has done that to T. Bog and Rof were about him reaching realms he never hit before, the U6 was about him fighting a real martial artist on par with him and an ability he never faced before, FT was about him literally facing himself and ToP is about him testing himself to the fullest he possible can.


Does it flow naturally, no? But Ball does not flow naturally into Z and we all know that. Nothing in the 23rd budokai sets off Raditz coming to Earth. its why most fans haven't even watched the original because you don't need to.


I understand your point characters aren't growing, time is barely moving and everything feels pointless but if Son Goku continues to fight and seek to fight and find ways to improve the way he fights then You can't say it doesn't feel like a story.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by Michsi » Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:38 am

I think two tournament arcs, one being the longest arc in Super, would have that effect. As someone already mentioned, due to the nature of this arc, the story feels a little too episodic. A bunch of fights happening all over the place wouldn't be so bad had they focused a little more on structure, maybe give it an overarching theme to bind it all together, one that would then later clash with the main antagonist's.
Last edited by Michsi on Wed Feb 21, 2018 4:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does Dragon Ball even feel like a story anymore?

Post by Cipher » Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:55 am

Totamo wrote:Here is my problem about this question and your statement.


What is dragon ball's overall narrative? One piece is for Luffy to become the Pirate king. Naruto is for Him to become Hokage and Hunter hunter is for gon to meet his father.
I disagree with this premise. Dragon Ball's linking narrative element from arc to arc is Goku's drive to be the strongest he can be, and his accidentally picking up new allies and doing some level of good through that, but it's not about a clear mission to become the strongest there is. To that point, he actually isn't the strongest main character at the end of the manga.

Dragon Ball doesn't have a character-based mission from square one like those series do. Its binding elements are the drive of its characters, and the fact they're treated relatively sincerely as they grow.

Super does have a narrative throughline to its plots—they stack upon each other and escalate reasonably; techniques opened up with the arrival of Beerus get refined; the attentions of higher and more dangers gods get tossed Goku's way—but that's not a story that automatically feels like an answer to the original run. Even if it were, removed of other character development, and sincere treatment, and surprises moving alongside that plot-level material, as the original run managed, there's not a lot to grab onto. Why do we care about following the journey of characters who stop changing?

Dragon Ball can do fun fluff*, but the venue for that is, say, a series of movies, rather than something the length of a long-running serial.

*Which unfortunately isn't to say the Super anime is genuinely fun a lot of the time.

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