Jiren -such a huge disappointment

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Lord Beerus
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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby Lord Beerus » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:25 pm

Asura wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Jiren is the Jotaro Kujo of Dragon Ball. Both are characters that have quite bland personalities but their presence in combat is so immense that it overshadows their two dimensional nature of being the "cool acting guy who does cool shit in fights and say cool things". The main purpose of Jiren was him to be the biggest obstacle in the arc and provide a spectacle in every battle he takes part in to live up to the role, and goddamn, mission accomplished in that department. No Dragon Ball fan will every forget (Ultra Instinct) Goku vs Jiren.

All the while, any kind of character development Jiren was going to get was put on the back-burner until it was needed for narrative purposes. That's not say that Jiren could have handled much better from a character perspective, because he certainly could have developed better and your mileage will always vary with how much you get out Jiren's character.


I definitely wouldn’t say that Jiren is the Jotaro of Dragon Ball. Jotaro’s personality isn’t nearly as bland as Jiren’s, nor is it as inconsistent. I’m a big fan of Jotaro and it has very little to do with his combat prowess and more to do with his cool kid, calm and calculating personality.

Jiren on the other hand is almost entirely emotionless, motivation and backstory still not all that clear, definitely not someone who is always calculating his next move like Jotaro, and he doesn’t really have any of those cool kid traits aside from a catchline and being quiet. Jotaro is quiet but when he spoke he usually had something to say. When Jiren speaks he doesn’t really add anything, it’s mostly just weak insults or him talking about strength.

I personally find Jotaro Kujo a terribly static and underdeveloped character and I LOVE JoJo's Bizarre Adventures, and especially Part 3 of it. Yeah, Jotaro does and says really cool shit but he never truly evolves enough from the characterization he's given upon his debut of being the cunning, stoic badass who spouts cool one liners. That's not to say his battles aren't fun to watch, because out of all the protagonists in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure I find he's the most entertaining to watch in any kind of confrontation. But out of all the protagonists in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, I also find he's the most underdeveloped in personality. So while I just don't give a shit about his character because there's not enough for to get personally invested with him, I still find him immensely entertaining in conflicts despite that. It's the same deal with Jiren, for me.

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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby The gr » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:27 pm

I'm one of the few who isn't bothered at the backstory I'm moreso angry at the lack of build up for this moment and I also hate that they made Jiren to a guy who play with his food instead of the no nonesense guy from the special.

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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby Bullza » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:37 pm

Jiren seems more like a Movie Villain that was stretched out over a long saga.

He's not really a good character and won't be considered as memorable as some of the others. If he weren't powerful then nobody would care about him.

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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby Miracles » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:44 pm

Vegeta_Sama wrote:
Miracles wrote:Jiren told Goku to get lost in his first appearance.
Jiren does a winning pose after sending his prey flying.
Stepped on Goku's back when he was down.
Told team 7 how does it feel to taste their last victory after defeating Anilaza.
Clowned Vegeta for having a false exaggerated view of himself with impure punches.
Rebuked Toppo for throwing away justice for destruction. Commended Vegeta for staying true to who he is.
Jiren's character has been consistent.

Yeah, consistently bland


IF SOMEONE ISN'T MAKING ME LAUGH THEY ARE BLAND.

The logic of this culture today. :thumbdown:
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Jiren is a straight to the point powerhouse. He is all business.

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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby Onibaku » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:49 pm

I'm fine with his character, but boy he's ugly as hell.

They could've made him more last villain worthy appearance wise. All we got is a gray, tight clothed and bald alien who's bulky. Can't get uglier unless you're Toppo.

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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby Exline » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:23 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:
Asura wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:Jiren is the Jotaro Kujo of Dragon Ball. Both are characters that have quite bland personalities but their presence in combat is so immense that it overshadows their two dimensional nature of being the "cool acting guy who does cool shit in fights and say cool things". The main purpose of Jiren was him to be the biggest obstacle in the arc and provide a spectacle in every battle he takes part in to live up to the role, and goddamn, mission accomplished in that department. No Dragon Ball fan will every forget (Ultra Instinct) Goku vs Jiren.

All the while, any kind of character development Jiren was going to get was put on the back-burner until it was needed for narrative purposes. That's not say that Jiren could have handled much better from a character perspective, because he certainly could have developed better and your mileage will always vary with how much you get out Jiren's character.


I definitely wouldn’t say that Jiren is the Jotaro of Dragon Ball. Jotaro’s personality isn’t nearly as bland as Jiren’s, nor is it as inconsistent. I’m a big fan of Jotaro and it has very little to do with his combat prowess and more to do with his cool kid, calm and calculating personality.

Jiren on the other hand is almost entirely emotionless, motivation and backstory still not all that clear, definitely not someone who is always calculating his next move like Jotaro, and he doesn’t really have any of those cool kid traits aside from a catchline and being quiet. Jotaro is quiet but when he spoke he usually had something to say. When Jiren speaks he doesn’t really add anything, it’s mostly just weak insults or him talking about strength.

I personally find Jotaro Kujo a terribly static and underdeveloped character and I LOVE JoJo's Bizarre Adventures, and especially Part 3 of it. Yeah, Jotaro does and says really cool shit but he never truly evolves enough from the characterization he's given upon his debut of being the cunning, stoic badass who spouts cool one liners. That's not to say his battles aren't fun to watch, because out of all the protagonists in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure I find he's the most entertaining to watch in any kind of confrontation. But out of all the protagonists in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, I also find he's the most underdeveloped in personality. So while I just don't give a shit about his character because there's not enough for to get personally invested with him, I still find him immensely entertaining in conflicts despite that. It's the same deal with Jiren, for me.


In Parts 4 and 6, his personality does change somewhat. He goes from being the foul-mouthed and stoic 17 year old from Stardust Crusaders, into someone who becomes much more analytical and calm during intense situations. You can't say Jotaro Kujo in Parts 3 and 4 have the same personality because there is clearly some change.

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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby CriticalThinker » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:26 pm

When he was first revealed I wasn't to crazy about him as I found his design to be pretty boring and uninteresting. My opinion on him didn't improve since he didn't do much until 109 and 110. I did like his fight aganist Goku and I started to like Jiren a bit more after seeing him rag doll Goku, also enjoyed his fight against Hit. Problem was he went right back to doing nothing which annoyed me. Come the final and my already meh opinion of him only got worse as it went on. Maybe it's just me but I was alright with Jiren no selling Goku in the special, but quickly became bored of it after watching multiple episode of him no selling stuff. Them dragging out the fight between Jiren vs Goku and Vegeta, guest starring Freeza and 17, really soured my outlook on him as it seemed like he was screwing around even though he really shouldn't have been at this point. Also didn't help that Jiren got a terribly generic backstory. Also to add is that his personality didn't do much to make me like him either. Also can't say if the way he's acting now is inconstant or not since he was pretty emotionless up until the final, but I guess it might as well. Since I've not watched GT yet, Jiren to me is the worst major antagonist of any Dragonball arc thus far and I doubt 130 will do much to make me like him.

I guess a lot of the problems I have with Jiren are due to the poor writing from the show, as I kinda like the manga version of Jiren a bit more, but even then I still don't care much for him.

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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby Super Saiyan Swagger » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:49 pm

Jiren is basically Toguro from Yu Yu Hakusho. I liked Toguro. He made for a very intimidating antagonist. Jiren accomplishes the same thing.

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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby Lord Beerus » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:05 pm

Exline wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:
Asura wrote:
I definitely wouldn’t say that Jiren is the Jotaro of Dragon Ball. Jotaro’s personality isn’t nearly as bland as Jiren’s, nor is it as inconsistent. I’m a big fan of Jotaro and it has very little to do with his combat prowess and more to do with his cool kid, calm and calculating personality.

Jiren on the other hand is almost entirely emotionless, motivation and backstory still not all that clear, definitely not someone who is always calculating his next move like Jotaro, and he doesn’t really have any of those cool kid traits aside from a catchline and being quiet. Jotaro is quiet but when he spoke he usually had something to say. When Jiren speaks he doesn’t really add anything, it’s mostly just weak insults or him talking about strength.

I personally find Jotaro Kujo a terribly static and underdeveloped character and I LOVE JoJo's Bizarre Adventures, and especially Part 3 of it. Yeah, Jotaro does and says really cool shit but he never truly evolves enough from the characterization he's given upon his debut of being the cunning, stoic badass who spouts cool one liners. That's not to say his battles aren't fun to watch, because out of all the protagonists in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure I find he's the most entertaining to watch in any kind of confrontation. But out of all the protagonists in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, I also find he's the most underdeveloped in personality. So while I just don't give a shit about his character because there's not enough for to get personally invested with him, I still find him immensely entertaining in conflicts despite that. It's the same deal with Jiren, for me.


In Parts 4 and 6, his personality does change somewhat. He goes from being the foul-mouthed and stoic 17 year old from Stardust Crusaders, into someone who becomes much more analytical and calm during intense situations. You can't say Jotaro Kujo in Parts 3 and 4 have the same personality because there is clearly some change.

Jotaro already portrays being a very analytical and a calm person in intense situations Part 3. Hell, Jotaro comes out top in many confrontations because of him acting like that.

Okay, this is getting off track...

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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby Torturephile » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:43 pm

I never liked him. Nothing about him has stood out for me, whether design, moveset, or personality. His manga counterpart is better at least in personality.
From Super episode 113 thread:
MaskedRider wrote:
Torturephile wrote:
hunduel wrote:I liked this episode. I seriously don't know why people hate it.

namekiansaiyan wrote:I seriously don't see why some of you like this episode when nothing happened and was basically filler.

The fandom in a nutshell.

The duality of man.

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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby Aman » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:28 pm

Not a fan of his character, he serves little purpose once Goku has surpassed and defeated him.

Hit although a lot more interesting as also fallen away to the way side as more characters have surpassed him in power.

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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby Marlowe89 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:47 pm

It wouldn't be particularly controversial to say he's undoubtedly one of the worst - if not the worst - major antagonists in all of Dragon Ball, but for me, the more engaging topic is discussing his role in the narrative. The anime obviously seems to have him exist solely for the sake of having the audience focus on Goku's growth (with only a small bit of backstory on the side), but the manga already appears to be building up to something more. Toyotaro did mention back in November that his reason for fighting would be portrayed differently than in the anime, so it's not too surprising that people find him much more interesting in that medium.

There's not much more I can say about that. My disappointment with Jiren as a character is not too dissimilar from my disappointment with the Tournament of Power in general. The arc isn't terrible, but it does feel undercooked -- and if that's undercooked, then Jiren is really just the equivalent of raw meat.

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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby precita » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:51 pm

Jiren exists because he's a gray alien.

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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby Kodoshin » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:53 pm

Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:Jiren is basically Toguro from Yu Yu Hakusho. I liked Toguro. He made for a very intimidating antagonist. Jiren accomplishes the same thing.


Really? I don't see it at all. Toguro had a significant role in the life of Yusuke's mentor and certainly a much stronger characterization. I feel like Jiren, even after his typical Naruto villain backstory, hasn't shown us much of anything.

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Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

Postby Spider-Man » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:17 pm

He is very generic and say nothing interesting just weak insults or talk about his strength.
    The only positive of this character is that he works as a wall to Goku.Overall I don't care for this character.
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    Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

    Postby Super Saiyan Swagger » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:27 am

    Kodoshin wrote:
    Super Saiyan Swagger wrote:Jiren is basically Toguro from Yu Yu Hakusho. I liked Toguro. He made for a very intimidating antagonist. Jiren accomplishes the same thing.


    Really? I don't see it at all. Toguro had a significant role in the life of Yusuke's mentor and certainly a much stronger characterization. I feel like Jiren, even after his typical Naruto villain backstory, hasn't shown us much of anything.

    It's been a while since I've seen Yu Yu Hakusho so I forgot that whole thing between Genkai and Toguro. But I do remember when Toguro's comrades were murdered by a creature from the Dark Tournament, similar to how Jiren's family and friends were killed by the evil-doer. Both events moulded the characters to become who they're known for in the show.

    They're also both incredibly powerful and stoic characters. A wall for Goku and Yusuke to overcome. I definitely like Toguro more than Jiren though.

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    Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

    Postby KingKaash » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:49 am

    Goresh wrote:I'm generally someone who tries to find the best in things and I really want DBS to succeed. There have only been a handful of episodes that I can genuinely say that I have not liked, but I have been extremely put-off with the way that the team has handled Jiren as a character. It seems that when they were deciding on the flow of story in this arc, there was not really a well-thought out structure for how the flow of events would play out, which resulted in this sort of episodic narrative ever since the ToP began. This played into Jiren's poor characterization because without a predetermined overarching tone that is consistent throughout the arc, Jiren is seen as someone who consistently contradicts his values as each episode is seen as more of its own story instead of pieces of a puzzle. I can't speak to the brainstorming process the team used for this arc, but I think it would have benefited the series a great deal if all of the writers sat down in a room together and just spent however long they needed to flesh out the tone, characters, and story progression so that the arc would at last have some remnants of flow to it. Hopefully they can squeeze in some kind of additional characterization for Jiren during these final episodes because up until now, he is probably the most uninteresting antagonist in Dragon Ball history.


    From beginning to end, I agree with this comment 100%. I feel like the only thing the writers sat down and agreed on regarding Jiren was how insanely strong he would be. Once they figured that out they thought that would be enough I guess
    "Gohan, let it go. It is not a sin to fight for the right cause. There are those who words alone will not reach. Cell is such a being. I know how you feel Gohan, you are gentle, you do not like to hurt. I know because I too have learned these feelings. But it is because you cherish life that you must protect it. Please drop your restraints. Protect the life I once loved. You have the strength, my scanners sensed it..." -Android 16

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    Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

    Postby ZenkaiBoosts » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:00 am

    Miracles wrote:Jiren told Goku to get lost in his first appearance.
    Jiren does a winning pose after sending his prey flying.
    Stepped on Goku's back when he was down.
    Told team 7 how does it feel to taste their last victory after defeating Anilaza.
    Clowned Vegeta for having a false exaggerated view of himself with impure punches.
    Rebuked Toppo for throwing away justice for destruction. Commended Vegeta for staying true to who he is.
    Jiren's character has been consistent.

    This 100%

    People will just criticise Super without having actually payed attention to what they were watching

    Also how did this thread basically turn into "this is why the manga is better?" Like really? This isnt the place for that (as if the manga crowd have some kind of inferiority complex over the anime)

    Are people forgetting that Jiren was shown in the same way in the last manga chapter, as he has been in the anime? Cocky, arrogant, stand offish etc

    The manga will be following the same Toriyama outlines that the anime followed.

    The only difference is the TOP in the manga will be Toyotaro's Interpretation of the Toriyama/Toei anime TOP (The Toryiama/Toei anime of the TOP arc came first, it IS the quintessential canon that set the standard to follow. Toyotaro will just be offering a supplement to it/his interpretation)
    Last edited by ZenkaiBoosts on Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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    Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

    Postby ZenkaiBoosts » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:07 am

    Avenant wrote:
    GreatSaiyaJeff wrote:ANime wise, it feels like they really haven't done much with him until the end, which is a shame since how much they were building him up since the 2nd OP started. The manga though was smart and established who he is and get a sence of character. So while the anime is meh, there is hope for the manga.


    I never take the Anime serious and just enjoy the ride. The Manga is the quentessential Dragonball to me and what I look forward to most. That said, I'm super excited to see how the tournament plays out in the Manga, no pun intended! I expect Jiren to be much more developed and intriguing.

    Toyotaro is so over rated. He doesn't come close to prime Toriyama. Sorry, I can't ever say that a Toyotaro manga is ever the "quintessential" version of anything Dragon Ball.

    In fact, did you know that Toriyama's outlines did NOT have Vegetto? That was Toyotaro. So again how is his manga interpretation quintessential dragon ball?

    The anime followed the same Toriyama outlines that Toyotaro will be following.

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    Re: Jiren -such a huge disappointment

    Postby Bruma rabu » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:57 am

    I think I'm in the minority, I'm honestly ok with the way jiren is. I don't really think this arch has a main villain and it doesn't really need it. I see jiren as just a wall for goku to overcome. I would like for Jiren to have been fleshed out but Toriyama probably wasn't interested in fleshing him out.
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