The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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SSJ YUSUKE
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The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby SSJ YUSUKE » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:32 pm

I hear a lot of people complaining about how the human characters were wasted in the Anime version of the TOP. All the Humans have been given theit time to shine and actaully had actaul battles. Both in the ROF and TOP arc the characters actaully did something and I'm satisfied with that. Tien with the exception of one moment in the Cell and the fight with Nappa in the saiyan saga did not have a proper fight and Krillin did absolutly nothing after Freeza saga. I love that even though they are not able to compete with the stronger characters they still got a chance to shine as fighters. This is a breath of fresh air compared to the Buu saga where they were background characters with zero relevance to the story. Could more have been done? Sure but they still got more than what they had in Z.
And to add to this I actaully think Piccolo and the Androids were treated with far more respect then they were in the Buu saga. Piccolo who was at one point the strongest character in the middle of the Cell arc became a baby sitter in the Buu arc while 18 wasn't even treated as a fighter despite being incredibly strong and 17 was basically ignored. Super made all these characters more relevant than they were in the Buu saga and that is more than what I expected.

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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby kemuri07 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:02 am

Super made all these characters more relevant than they were in the Buu saga and that is more than what I expected.


The thing is, Super cheated to make that happen. The thing I like about Z: you always knew were every character stood in terms of power level. Which added tension (remember that word?) when low-level characters like Gohan and Kuririn (during the namek saga) have to deal with fighters that completely outclass them.

NOT SO IN SUPER...where any character can stand his ground with either a bullshit power up or unseen "training" that inexplicably makes them far powerful than they were before. Super doesn't give a shit, because nothing matters; Trunks can fight against Zamasu purely because "that's what the fanboys want." Gohan gets back into fighting mode after two episodes because "that's what the fanboys want" (and still doesn't do shit anyways). And Vegeta gets to take down Toppo for no reason other than "that's what the fanboys want."

Realistically (you know for Dragonball), Kuririn, Tien, and Roshi shouldn't have been anywhere near this tournament. There inclusion was purely for hype (something that I fell for even though I should have known better), knowing full well that people desperately wanted these characters to matter in some way.


edit: holy shit, does this forum automatically replace "Kuririn" with Kuririn? Hahahaha.

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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby Nickolaidas » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:28 am

SSJ YUSUKE wrote:I hear a lot of people complaining about how the human characters were wasted in the Anime version of the TOP. All the Humans have been given theit time to shine and actaully had actaul battles. Both in the ROF and TOP arc the characters actaully did something and I'm satisfied with that. Tien with the exception of one moment in the Cell and the fight with Nappa in the saiyan saga did not have a proper fight and Krillin did absolutly nothing after Freeza saga. I love that even though they are not able to compete with the stronger characters they still got a chance to shine as fighters. This is a breath of fresh air compared to the Buu saga where they were background characters with zero relevance to the story. Could more have been done? Sure but they still got more than what they had in Z.
And to add to this I actaully think Piccolo and the Androids were treated with far more respect then they were in the Buu saga. Piccolo who was at one point the strongest character in the middle of the Cell arc became a baby sitter in the Buu arc while 18 wasn't even treated as a fighter despite being incredibly strong and 17 was basically ignored. Super made all these characters more relevant than they were in the Buu saga and that is more than what I expected.


Power level bullcrap aside, I agree with what you say where Roshi and Krillin are concerned. Tien and Yamcha not so much. They were treated better in Z, especially in the filler.

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Lionel
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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby Lionel » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:48 am

Providing a moderately higher standard of involvement relative to the Buu arc isn't too good of a benchmark. I think many fans hold the Buu arc to a somewhat lower standard in comparison to what we might consider to be Toriyama's "peak" -- i.e the material going from the Daimao arc in Dragon Ball original all of the way up to Freeza in Z. You keep them visible in some of the chapters and even take it one step further by putting them on the frontlines once again after multiple arcs worth of inactivity. Does it sound irrational or unreasonable to hope for something more under those circumstances? I think about that especially in light of the asinine exclusivist policy that was adopted later on where no one except a Saiyan is allowed to have meaningful opportunity -- keep everyone except Goku and Vegeta away from the tools they need to make something of themselves once again and what do you expect will happen? I do feel a good bit of authorial based disapprobation towards Toriyama because of that, yeah.

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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby TobyS » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:13 am

Lionel wrote:Providing a moderately higher standard of involvement relative to the Buu arc isn't too good of a benchmark. I think many fans hold the Buu arc to a somewhat lower standard in comparison to what we might consider to be Toriyama's "peak" -- i.e the material going from the Daimao arc in Dragon Ball original all of the way up to Freeza in Z. You keep them visible in some of the chapters and even take it one step further by putting them on the frontlines once again after multiple arcs worth of inactivity. Does it sound irrational or unreasonable to hope for something more under those circumstances? I think about that especially in light of the asinine exclusivist policy that was adopted later on where no one except a Saiyan is allowed to have meaningful opportunity -- keep everyone except Goku and Vegeta away from the tools they need to make something of themselves once again and what do you expect will happen? I do feel a good bit of authorial based disapprobation towards Toriyama because of that, yeah.


Yeah you put it brilliantly. I suggest very politely tweeting your disappointment to Toyo and Toei. Artists need feedback to improve.
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Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby kemuri07 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 7:43 am

Real talk: when fanboys start directing how a story should be told is usually when said show goes down the shitter.

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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby lancerman » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:41 am

kemuri07 wrote:Real talk: when fanboys start directing how a story should be told is usually when said show goes down the shitter.


And fans didn't start directing Vegeta and other Saiyans being the more prominent characters? People saw where the series was going in the Cell arc and how that path led to GT becoming the Goku does everything show and everybody but Goku and Pan being glorified third tier characters.

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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby kemuri07 » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:28 pm

And somehow Super isn't the Goku does everything show how?

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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby The_Destroyer » Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:08 pm

You mean ROSHI is treated better in Super than in Z. The other 3 not so much.

I guess Krillin gets better treatment in Super’s anime, but Krillin wasn’t shafted that much in Z. He got to do shit in every arc except maybe Buu saga. I’d say his relevance stayed about the same. The manga treatment is an absolute joke.

I don’t think Tien needs explaining.

Yamcha doesn’t even get to go to fights anymore. Even if he didn’t win any in Z he at least was there and he got to fight. Now? He gets left behind every time.

Seriously, just because Roshi is treated better doesn’t mean all humans are.

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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby Raphael_Z » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:18 pm

The_Destroyer wrote:You mean ROSHI is treated better in Super than in Z. The other 3 not so much.

I guess Krillin gets better treatment in Super’s anime, but Krillin wasn’t shafted that much in Z. He got to do shit in every arc except maybe Buu saga. I’d say his relevance stayed about the same. The manga treatment is an absolute joke.

I don’t think Tien needs explaining.

Yamcha doesn’t even get to go to fights anymore. Even if he didn’t win any in Z he at least was there and he got to fight. Now? He gets left behind every time.

Seriously, just because Roshi is treated better doesn’t mean all humans are.


In the Super anime, Krilin at least got some filler episodes dedicated to him and his new life as a policeman plus he fought and won against Frieza's henchmen and against some nobodies in the TOP (as opposed to Buu Saga where he was just a retired fighter not unlike Yamcha).

In the Cell Saga, Krilin was irrelevant and didn't have a real fight. His only real moment to shine was when he chose not to destroy 18 which in turn allowed Cell to become perfect.

In the Namek and Saiyan Saga, Krilin only provided a support role and that's pretty much it.

Tien in Super at least fought and won against Frieza's henchmen and against some nobodies in the TOP. In Z, the only thing he did was stall Cell and Boo (which was kind of crucial story-wise for the heroes to recover/escape but not really a big character moment) plus being Nappa's ragdoll.

Yamcha...well, in this one I agree.

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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby WittyUsername » Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:02 pm

I'm not sure I can fully agree with that. The only Earthling character who I think was really treated better in Super than in Z has been the Muten Roshi. Kuririn has received a few spotlight episodes, but he still got eliminated pretty quickly in the ToP (which is even worse in the manga) and Yamcha is nothing more than a punchline. Granted, the latter wasn’t exactly treated very well in Z either, but he at least got to participate in a few fights. As far as Super is concerned, Yamcha is such a joke that no one even considered recruiting him for the ToP.

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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby Olympian » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:23 pm

I don`t think it is a general rule. "Humans" are represented at a universal TOP so it`s still good but it really depends on the characters. Roshi was returned great and Kuririn got a nice technique boost but overall they just were present less in the overall story.

The only main consensuous is, nobody was dirtied as much as Yamcha in Super. Nobody. Not even Yamcha in Z.
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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby Boku no Hitto » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:23 pm

I qonder if the treatment would have been better without toriyamas restrictions?

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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby dragonball0900 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:36 pm

I disagree totally on this. At least only Master Roshi was treated better. But the others? No, I don't think so.

Krillin got to shine a lot in the Saiyan and Frieza arcs, managing to hold his own against guys like Nappa and Frieza, as well as how he managed to make him, Gohan and Dende escape from Dodoria with the Solar Flare. He was also the one to find Dende when they already gathered the Dragon Balls, and was like a good role model for Gohan since neither Goku or Piccolo were around. In the Cell and Buu arcs, he didn't do that much, yeah he was the one who first got the remote control to turn off the androids but then later ruined everything in the end.

Tien. I disagree greatly on this one. He was treated so well in Z. Specially against Cell (without him, Cell would've absorbed 18 earlier and Vegeta and Trunks wouldn't do much at all after the ROSAT), and Buu (without him Mr Satan would be killed and there would be no help in the Spirit Bomb), and if we mention filler, against the Ginyu Force. In Super, however, he only defeated a whole bunch of Frieza Soldiers who didn't even matter at all, they even got tired and needed senzus for that! Then before the TOP, he got defeated by Roshi, and in the TOP, he was the one who had less eliminations than any other of U7. One with help from Roshi, and the other just sacrificing himself falling out.

Yamcha... This doesn't need big explanation. It's quite obvious. There was NOTHING he did in Super apart from that baseball episode. In Z, however, he had at least fillers that were good for him, like surviving longer than Krillin against the past saiyans on Kami's lookout, as well as throwing a punch on Piccolo and defeating Recoome on King Kai's planet. And at least he was shown in battle in the Cell Games.

So in short, no. The humans were not treated better in Super. I will say, however, that Krillin wasn't treated that bad, but falling first from the TOP arena was the downfall for his Super treatment. Tien and Yamcha, they were treated the worst.

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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby OhHiRenan » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:38 am

I cannot agree with this at all. Not a single Earthling has a character arc in Super save for Roshi.

The Z-era gave us a character arc for Kuririn, great character moments for Tenshinhan and Yamcha, and actually kept the Earthlings reasonably active in the plot even if they weren’t fighting.

Super gave us some Earthling representation in Resurrection F and that was pretty much it until the Tournament of Power.
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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby Muffin Man » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:34 am

Everyone acts like Krillin wasn't a major character in Z all be because he loses most of his fights, but winning fights isn't all there is to a character. Krillin was almost always active in the story throughout DB and DBZ (with his biggest absences being in the original DB, actually), even if he was the weakling underdog who ended up getting his ass kicked most of the time.

Of course, since Super is mostly just "People Fighting in Tournaments: The Series", it's easy to forget what it's like to have an actual story for a character to be active in without constantly fighting.

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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby Lionel » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:53 am

Krillin does have some non-fight related uses in the Freeza and Cell arcs like assuming the role of de facto commander of the Z-team on Namek and his perusal of Gero's secret underground laboratory to destroy the present day iteration of Cell while happening upon #17's blueprints. Sadly, those moments don't really exist anymore. Except for Bulma -- whose scientific and technical aptitude has helped bridge the gap towards the protagonists achieving their goals -- battle strength and fights is the singlemost overriding factor that determines your worth in Dragon Ball. Most of these characters don't have a lot of versatile skills beyond fighting -- and with the functionally challenged nature of Toriyama's merit system, it more or less spells "doom" for the involvement of Krillin and the others.

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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby Kataphrut » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:06 am

It feels like they were, but it only 100% applies to Roshi and maybe Bulma if we count non-combatants. Tien has been treated worse, while Yamcha has been treated about the same, but with the added joke factor that comes with changing perceptions of his character since the original series ended. Also, Satan and Videl weren't really involved in any of the story in Super. That said, they had some of the best roles in filler episodes like the Super Satan episode and the Barry Kahn two-parter.

Krillin is a complicated example. He wasn't really an active player at any point in Super compared to how he was in Z. However, he did get four really great focus episodes that explored his character in interesting ways. Unfortunately the payoff at the end of it all was a tail in the face from Frost and spending the majority of the Tournament of Power sitting on the sidelines while his less prominent wife went on to be one of the MVPs. Still better treatment than Buu saga or GT I guess.

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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby GamerSkull » Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:52 pm

I agree with most others here. Roshi was the only one with any good treatment... and he makes the least sense.

In fact, as far as Yamcha is concerned, the last thing he did in Super was get shit on by his friends because they didn't even acknowledge him.

Tenshinhan was treated poorly and while Kuririn got some good moments, he got fucked in the end too.
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Re: The human characters were treated better in Super than Z

Postby Lionel » Fri Mar 23, 2018 4:14 pm

In retrospect, keeping the earthlings out may have been for the best. To me, it seems apparent that Toriyama doesn't have the willingness to invest anything substantial for their growth as characters and fighters. What flimsy short-term existence in the manga tournament they had was hollow and could have been removed without any detriment to the arc's narrative. Roshi has to be artificially propped up, much to the annoyance of many fans, for whatever role Toriyama feels he should be allowed to play. His involvement might have garnered just as much criticism as it did acclaim. Moreover, I think that with the pandemonium that's in abundance throughout this tournament that Toriyama could have afforded to shave down the number of competitors to 40 instead of 80. It's still a hefty sum of fights with more potential to be given some proper focus. In Universe 7's case, I would have probably left out Piccolo and #18, leaving just the Saiyans, Freeza, and #17 to fight. Whatever role they have can be played by others since the originality of perks and abilities seems to be limited these days.


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