Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

[prince212]

Jiren attacking u7 shows how easy a good person can become a villain if he lives his own reality in his shell.
This episode was epic

[Slaythe]

I don't really know what to think of 17 being alive. It would have been more epic for only Frieza and Goku to be there. The two guys who were enemies between each other long ago working together. 17 being there takes that impact away a lot, at least for me. I also said time again before my thoughts about 17's crazy power up in Super, about how I dislike it, and making him outlasting Vegeta in the tournament seems weird, I did expect that from Frieza, being a powerful and important villian throughout the series, but from 17? Wow it's like watching a different show to be totally honest.

I'm still puzzled why people find it unacceptable for Android 17 to be that strong. When he was introduced he was stronger than SSJ1, so right out of the gate he was stronger than 100%-powered Frieza. Why is Frieza allowed to grow so much stronger in six months but not 17 in the decade since he was introduced?

It's hypocrisy at its finest.

Toriyama had said on record years ago 17 could get stronger. Now they had the chance to do it. It literally did nothing bad, 17 didn't overpower anybody, all he did was use his strategies and abilities to stand out, he's just strong enough to not be turned into a useless punching bag. He's a welcome addition since he adds something that had been missing from this show for a long long time.

Goku Freeza 17 is a wonderful trio. Super varied.

The only odd thing is that they didn't bother to do anything great with Piccolo. But that's not 17's fault.

[prince212]

Take a look at this, someone has uploaded a video of the episode being shown in a bar in Mexico and everyone goes nuts watching it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=307s&v=phbGt_7Qvj8

Hahahahahahaha people telling matalo matalo , kill him kill him amazing , thanks

[Hawk9211]

A really dumb bullshit episode.I did not know that goku was based on luffy,not the other way around.Do people remember all the complaining about manga black?It's even worse now.He is a generic dragon ball villain,that is done much better multiple times.

Well done toei, you completely played us...

Everyone knew since day one that toei would play the card "pretend Freeza is not there, and have him steal the win at the end" but nobody predicted that #17 would also reappear (except in ironic memes, nobody can say that they truly believed that).

Episode was 10/10, the final minutes had me pulling my hair, the art was incredible.

Multiple people in this forum including me predicted that.

[Slaythe]

I don't really know what to think of 17 being alive. It would have been more epic for only Frieza and Goku to be there. The two guys who were enemies between each other long ago working together. 17 being there takes that impact away a lot, at least for me. I also said time again before my thoughts about 17's crazy power up in Super, about how I dislike it, and making him outlasting Vegeta in the tournament seems weird, I did expect that from Frieza, being a powerful and important villian throughout the series, but from 17? Wow it's like watching a different show to be totally honest.

I'm still puzzled why people find it unacceptable for Android 17 to be that strong. When he was introduced he was stronger than SSJ1, so right out of the gate he was stronger than 100% Frieza. Why is Frieza allowed to grow so much stronger in six months but not 17 in the decade since he was introduced?

Because Frieza's power up had an explanation. His race was born like that and Frieza directly said that he would make big increases when training because of that. With 17 however, there was no statement whatsoever explaing his big power up, I understand if he gets stronger than SSJ3 and weaker than the God form, I would even tolerate if it was closer to the latter. But blue level? There are even lots of feats proving that and I just don't aprove of that.

Toriyama said that 17's enhancements are all organic. Which is why he can train and get stronger. He has infinite stamina and had 10 years in front of him... On top of that, in the present, 17 had NEVER powered up, or used ki attacks. We know thanks to the manga he was aware of everything that happened while inside Cell, so he must have picked up a few things, considering how much he is using both ki attacks and powers up now.

So what it means is that, JUST LIKE FREEZA, 17 wasn't anywhere near his max potential when we saw him. And it also explains why "perfect" Cell lost to a 12 years old. It's also stated the only reason Gero considered 17 a failure is that he refused to take any order. Which means he is confident in this model. In fact 17 himself says he is the ultimate android. Probably because Gero told him.

Anyway, yes it could have been elaborated on in Super, but they didn't do shit for Trunks' rage form and how Gohan caught up to blue level in a day, it's just how it is.

17 lasted that long by running away, shielding himself, hiding etc... is it really worth the whining ? He's strong, not the strongest. There's nothing wrong with having multiple characters being powerful. He was off screen 10 years, that's quite the price to pay.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

This is probably one of my favourite reactions. Absolutely amazing. The crowd went off.

[8bitdee]

Because Frieza's power up had an explanation. His race was born like that and Frieza directly said that he would make big increases when training because of that.

Android 17 was also "born" strong. Yeah, he was just a normal human before, but simple organic enhancements by Gero turned him into something more powerful than any human being in existence, so when he became Android 17 he was just automatically stronger than anyone at that point in the story. So by your logic, his training should also provide big increases in power.

But whatever, this thread isn't about that so this is where I stop discussing this topic.

Take a look at this, someone has uploaded a video of the episode being shown in a bar in Mexico and everyone goes nuts watching it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=307s&v=phbGt_7Qvj8

Goddamn, this is beautiful. I'm originally from Mexico so I can understand the energy and excitement emanating from video. I wish I had been in a place like that. This is what DragonBall is about. It's not some Fullmetal Alchemist-level of shounen anime like a lot of people on the internet want it to be. It's just fun fights with a so-so narrative that ties them all together.

[dragonball0900]

Toriyama said that 17's enhancements are all organic. Which is why he can train and get stronger. He has infinite stamina and had 10 years in front of him... On top of that, in the present, 17 had NEVER powered up, or used ki attacks. We know thanks to the manga he was aware of everything that happened while inside Cell, so he must have picked up a few things, considering how much he is using both ki attacks and powers up now.

So what it means is that, JUST LIKE FREEZA, 17 wasn't anywhere near his max potential when we saw him. And it also explains why "perfect" Cell lost to a 12 years old. It's also stated the only reason Gero considered 17 a failure is that he refused to take any order. Which means he is confident in this model. In fact 17 himself says he is the ultimate android. Probably because Gero told him.

Anyway, yes it could have been elaborated on in Super, but they didn't do shit for Trunks' rage form and how Gohan caught up to blue level in a day, it's just how it is.

The thing with Future Trunks' rage form is because that was a form, a transformation, the same with Gohan's SSJ2 against Perfect Cell, it was a transformation itself, not just his base power. And I never said that Android 17 couldn't get stronger, surely he can get stronger, but getting that much stronger, he could've easily fight Buu in Buu arc, or fight Beerus in BOG (probably reaching Goku's god strength at the time!). The saiyans became that strong because of the transformations they recieved, as well as training with gods and all of that. 17 on the other hand just trained, and probably didn't even trained that hard like Goku and Vegeta. That's what makes it nonsensical at best.

Also about 17 not powering up, if that was the case then he would've resisted against Imperfect Cell back then, powering up and then defeating him, the infinite stamina thing also doesn't matter if the opponent is on a higher level and that's what happened with Cell against him and 18 back then. 17 being absorbed by Cell could've also made him reach to higher levels instead of just being beaten up by Vegeta.

[Morbidden]

So...with Jiren attempting to murder U7 can we finally classify him as a villain? What he did is no different than what Majin Vegeta did back in the Boo Saga. Truly despicable villain behavior.

Zeno is truly the worst villain. He is gonna murder all of them as well if Goku loses.

[Morbidden]

Jiren attacking u7 shows how easy a good person can become a villain if he lives his own reality in his shell.
This episode was epic

Except he is really not a villainous at all. Zeno would kill them anyway, so he was using them to make a point.

If Jiren accepts that Goku's strength of bonds and friendships are stronger than his power, it would make his whole life completely worthless. His whole ideology would collapse.

If all of Goku's friends were dead and killed he would be Jiren.

[Slaythe]

Toriyama said that 17's enhancements are all organic. Which is why he can train and get stronger. He has infinite stamina and had 10 years in front of him... On top of that, in the present, 17 had NEVER powered up, or used ki attacks. We know thanks to the manga he was aware of everything that happened while inside Cell, so he must have picked up a few things, considering how much he is using both ki attacks and powers up now.

So what it means is that, JUST LIKE FREEZA, 17 wasn't anywhere near his max potential when we saw him. And it also explains why "perfect" Cell lost to a 12 years old. It's also stated the only reason Gero considered 17 a failure is that he refused to take any order. Which means he is confident in this model. In fact 17 himself says he is the ultimate android. Probably because Gero told him.

Anyway, yes it could have been elaborated on in Super, but they didn't do shit for Trunks' rage form and how Gohan caught up to blue level in a day, it's just how it is.

The thing with Future Trunks' rage form is because that was a form, a transformation, the same with Gohan's SSJ2 against Perfect Cell, it was a transformation itself, not just his base power. And I never said that Android 17 couldn't get stronger, surely he can get stronger, but getting that much stronger, he could've easily fight Buu in Buu arc, or fight Beerus in BOG (probably reaching Goku's god strength at the time!). The saiyans became that strong because of the transformations they recieved, as well as training with gods and all of that. 17 on the other hand just trained, and probably didn't even trained that hard like Goku and Vegeta. That's what makes it nonsensical at best.

Also about 17 not powering up, if that was the case then he would've resisted against Imperfect Cell back then, powering up and then defeating him, the infinite stamina thing also doesn't matter if the opponent is on a higher level and that's what happened with Cell against him and 18 back then. 17 being absorbed by Cell could've also made him reach to higher levels instead of just being beaten up by Vegeta.

1) He's not a saiyan. He has a unique biology. It took Freeza 4 months to get there. Toriyama loves his androids (Arale forever), get over it man. He also stated "he didn't spend all this time sitting around" and put efforts into it. 17 was stronger than the regular SSJ without a form, I don't see why this is nonsensical that he can get that much stronger.
For the record, Gohan stated 17 and 18 are basically "super humans". And while 17 is indeed very strong, he is weaker than Goku. Keep in mind 17's strongest attack only merely damaged Jiren. That's an enormous gap. The fact Super Saiyan Blue is wonky is kinda irrelevant. Especially when Goku can use Kaioken x20 freely now...

As for Buu and Beerus, he never got the Babidi vision and given the short time the Buu saga took place in, he probably found out when the earth exploded. He had not seen Goku since the Cell saga when Goku asked for helped (genkidama). And as for Beerus, 17 made clear he doesn't mind complete erasure of everything at once so maybe he wouldn't have cared.

And AGAIN, if UI Goku is on Beerus' level, 17 could only scratch Jiren, a guy about as strong as UI Goku.

2) That's my point exactly, he didn't know how to power up (and I don't think it would have changed much because Cell absorbed millions of people to surpass 17). He does now. As I said, you will not find a single scene where present 17 uses a ki attack or powers up or has an aura. 18 didn't either until Krilin taught her some (which she used in the Buu saga). The future versions did. "Then why were they so weak ?" you're gonna ask, in the manga, 17 toys with Gohan and reveals he hadn't used half his power last time they met, he then proceeds to kill Gohan alone. The anime version made them super weak. Also, Future Trunks when he came back was just way too powerful and eliminated them in seconds before they could really react. Keep in mind they can't feel power levels.

I know games and other media did give them ki attacks, using the future versions as template, but the point remains that never happened in the manga.

[Asura]

You know, I think that my biggest issue with this episode isn't with 17 coming back, but just in terms of how poorly it was handled. Just imagine if after we see Goku saved the camera slowly pans to 17. Everyone would be expecting Freeza, but instead it's the "holy shit" reveal of 17 still being alive.

But no, instead he just anti-climatically gets up from behind a rock after Freeza's done the deed, and goes "oh hey guys i'm here now by the way." Just... why? As much as I love Freeza saving Goku, that should have been 17. It was just such poor, poor writing, especially since I think it literally happens in the last minute of the episode.

EDIT: Also, the title of the episode is "The Greatest Showdown of all Time! The Ultimate Survival Battle!!" - I think it lives up to the name.

[dragonball0900]

1) He's not a saiyan. He has a unique biology. It took Freeza 4 months to get there. Toriyama loves his androids (Arale forever), get over it man. He also stated "he didn't spend all this time sitting around" and put efforts into it. 17 was stronger than the regular SSJ without a form, I don't see why this is nonsensical that he can get that much stronger.
For the record, Gohan stated 17 and 18 are basically "super humans". And while 17 is indeed very strong, he is weaker than Goku. Keep in mind 17's strongest attack only merely damaged Jiren. That's an enormous gap. The fact Super Saiyan Blue is wonky is kinda irrelevant. Especially when Goku can use Kaioken x20 freely now...

As for Buu and Beerus, he never got the Babidi vision and given the short time the Buu saga took place in, he probably found out when the earth exploded. He had not seen Goku since the Cell saga when Goku asked for helped (genkidama). And as for Beerus, 17 made clear he doesn't mind complete erasure of everything at once so maybe he wouldn't have cared.

And AGAIN, if UI Goku is on Beerus' level, 17 could only scratch Jiren, a guy about as strong as UI Goku.

2) That's my point exactly, he didn't know how to power up (and I don't think it would have changed much because Cell absorbed millions of people to surpass 17). He does now. As I said, you will not find a single scene where present 17 uses a ki attack or powers up or has an aura. 18 didn't either until Krilin taught her some (which she used in the Buu saga). The future versions did. "Then why were they so weak ?" you're gonna ask, in the manga, 17 toys with Gohan and reveals he hadn't used half his power last time they met, he then proceeds to kill Gohan alone. The anime version made them super weak. Also, Future Trunks when he came back was just way too powerful and eliminated them in seconds before they could really react. Keep in mind they can't feel power levels.

I know games and other media did give them ki attacks, using the future versions as template, but the point remains that never happened in the manga.

I know that Toriyama loves his androids, and it's a shame (specially since it seems he prefers 18 more than Piccolo, which really shocks me a lot, but that's not the point here). Can you compare all of the training Goku and Vegeta had with 17's?

The problem then rises when people compare characters like Hit or Golden Frieza with 17 and say that 17 is much stronger than them because he did better against Jiren, that's what makes me feel nasty about this whole thing of 17's power up, so even if he's weaker than Goku, there's still room for him to be stronger than the characters I mentioned, and that's something that again, I will say, I'm not happy about.

Where's the proof that he didn't get the Babidi vision? Guidebooks also say that the only ones who survived Buu's energy attacks to kill every people on earth were Tien, Chiaotzu and Mr Satan, no mention of 17.

It's not that he wouldn't have cared, it's the fact that there was SOMEONE ELSE apart from Goku who could've give suppressed Beerus a good fight, when it was said in a narrative story point that Goku was the strongest on Earth by a lot after reaching the God form, and that the god form was the best thing ever on Earth at the time.

The thing you're saying about him not powering up is just speculation. It was never stated anywhere in any form of source or material that the androids powering up could've made them insanely stronger. Also Future Trunks said that he was able to give the future Androids a better fight than the present ones, which disproves your point about them becoming stronger after using ki blasts. The story does seem to suggest that the androids were way weaker than Future Trunks when he killed them. 17 and 18 could've also power up against Cell, specially 18 since she knew how strong Cell had become not only Imperfect but Semi Perfect Cell who was even stronger too. But she didn't. They could've fight Cell along 16 when he was Imperfect too.

Also 17 said he became serious when knowing how strong was Piccolo fused with Kami, so he wasn't really going easy on him, he could've powered up as you said, but he did say he was serious and was giving all he got, they were equal at that point and the only advantage 17 had was the stamina.

I will answer tomorrow if being replied back since I have to go to sleep. But my point still stands, the androids were just overpowered dreadfully with no reason, statement or proof whatsoever.

[prince212]

Jiren attacking u7 shows how easy a good person can become a villain if he lives his own reality in his shell.
This episode was epic

Except he is really not a villainous at all. Zeno would kill them anyway, so he was using them to make a point.

If Jiren accepts that Goku's strength of bonds and friendships are stronger than his power, it would make his whole life completely worthless. His whole ideology would collapse.

If all of Goku's friends were dead and killed he would be Jiren.

Exactly. Villains have his own point , he’s not a villain but he made a villain act because of his ideology .
He didn’t become a villain thanks to Goku , but he acted like that

[sangofe]

So... I'm asking this question because I hope for a couple of people to quote me and reply; is this worth watching twice? I have planned to watch it with a real life friend tomorrow but it's 7 am and I can't sleep more on this sunday morning.

So is this worth watching twice for the action, the art, the animation, the fight itself? Or should I just wait a little bit more and just whatch it one time?

[prince212]

So... I'm asking this question because I hope for a couple of people to quote me and reply; is this worth watching twice? I have planned to watch it with a real life friend tomorrow but it's 7 am and I can't sleep more on this sunday morning.

So is this worth watching twice for the action, the art, the animation, the fight itself? Or should I just wait a little bit more and just whatch it one time?

It’s , but is worthed to watch the first time with somebody just for the emotion , after that alone , so ... wait hahahaha

[Asura]

So... I'm asking this question because I hope for a couple of people to quote me and reply; is this worth watching twice? I have planned to watch it with a real life friend tomorrow but it's 7 am and I can't sleep more on this sunday morning.

So is this worth watching twice for the action, the art, the animation, the fight itself? Or should I just wait a little bit more and just whatch it one time?

It's probably worth watching at least 5 times, if not more. It might quite possibly be the best episode in the entirety of Super, the only reason I say might is because of how poorly 17 was handled which kinda brings down the episode a little.

In terms of animation it is by far the best episode of Super, easily surpassing 109/110

[prince212]

So... I'm asking this question because I hope for a couple of people to quote me and reply; is this worth watching twice? I have planned to watch it with a real life friend tomorrow but it's 7 am and I can't sleep more on this sunday morning.

So is this worth watching twice for the action, the art, the animation, the fight itself? Or should I just wait a little bit more and just whatch it one time?

But I guess that considering you are in this post you have been spoiled ..so watch it hahaha

[Kurakaio]

Best episode of Super without a doubt. Honestly expected Hit to pop up after 17.

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

You know, I think that my biggest issue with this episode isn't with 17 coming back, but just in terms of how poorly it was handled. Just imagine if after we see Goku saved the camera slowly pans to 17. Everyone would be expecting Freeza, but instead it's the "holy shit" reveal of 17 still being alive.

Yeah I definitely would’ve preferred that now that you mention it. Would’ve been such a curveball because we all expected it to be Freeza.