Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby Asura » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:21 am

So haven't heard anyone bring it up yet buuuuuut, what's the deal with Jiren's aura being exactly like Goku's Ultra Instinct aura but red? I'm almost 99% sure they gave it to him because it looked cool and contrasted with Goku, and not for any actual reasons to do with Ultra Instinct.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby lord turbo » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:21 am

RIP_Power_Levels wrote:I don’t understand why some are letting Super’s narrative, character development, plot, etc weigh it down so much in their opinion. For a lot of shows I watch I do value these aspects, just not for Dragon Ball. Why? Because this show is meant to be eye candy first. This isn’t Game of Thrones (admittedly one of the best shows ever made). It’s supposed to be a visual, super powered spectacle to sell merchandise first and foremost, and this episode delivered on that goal spectacularly. If Super had a great narrative I would love this show even more, fantastic. If it doesn’t, I won’t let it bother me and cause me to hate the show. As long as the narrative is so-so I’m happy.


Not attacking you, I've said this before, but what you just said probably represents the majority of fans that support DBS overall which is why its a so so/meh show to begin with. Again, not attacking you or anything, but couldn't help notice your post is perfectly in line of why DBS is less than stellar

Extreme_kai wrote:
fadeddreams5 wrote:I was actually hoping for Frieza to have been the one to incapacitate Goku at the end, if only to firmly cement his place as a villain. I really, really, REALLY don't like the direction they're heading with that character.


I hear you, I don't want him to be "good" either but, I don't think it would have been smart for him to do that at that point. After all Freeza's beam would do nothing to a fully powered UI Goku unless he specifically timed it when he lost it. Freeza would still have to contend with Jiren, who despite being weakened is vastly stronger than him. I don't think Freeza's ever going to be good he's just biding his time, playing it smart and fighting for his own survival.


That would have probably been the perfect time, DBS made it abundantly clear off guard does critical damage. I'm actually surprised it wasn't Freeza attacking Goku just to completely spit in the face of the "trusting my allies" speech, it would have been a devasting realization that sometimes that kind of thing simply isn't true or enough.

That would have been a good time for 17 to make his appearance and save a heavily wounded Goku s from being thrown out by Freeza so it becomes a 3 way battle between a weakened Jiren, Freeza, and 17 while Goku is sidelined for letting his guard down at a crucial moment.

8bitdee wrote:Except it's the truth. Goku is where he is because of everything he has gone through. All the people he has met, all the people he fought who are now his friends, and have become a reason for him to protect, give him the power to surpass his limits. As much as he wants to fight people for his pleasure, his love for his friends are what have pushed him past his limits. It's what Goku is known for. It's typical for of a shounen character, and Goku is not an exception to the rule. I dont understand why it's such a foreign concept for you now.


Not really, that's Toei's interpretation which clashes wifh Toriyama's interpretation. I ain't saying Goku is heartless, but Toriyama makes it very clear through out all of Dragon Ball its not his love for his friends or family that pushes him past his limits, Vegeta's speech while Goku is fighting Kid Buu illustrates this bluntly. Guess what, no friends or family empowering mention in sight. Goku is actually an atypical shonen character, his personality is a contrast to the standard shonen archtype. Make no mistake, he is the exception and that is what makes Goku unique.

Doctor. wrote:
jeffbr92 wrote:I agree with all the bold parts, but I don't agree with you saying characters were getting stronger because of their loved ones... Who in this episode did that? The only thing that I saw was Goku pissed because Jiren trying (ridiculously) murder his friends.

Khai and Belmod specifically state Goku's speed and strength increased after Goku's speech about how everyone's counting on him and Piccolo and Roshi explain that Goku's gotten stronger because he has everyone's support. Later, after Jiren got stronger himself and tried to kill them, Goku gets stronger after talking about how he won't forgive someone for trying to hurt his friends, in typical One Piece/Naruto/Fairy Tail fashion.

Jiren himself didn't get a friendship power-up. He got the opposite of that. He got a power-up by remembering his traumatic past and refusing to acknowledge friendship as a source of strength.

Jesus, this script reads like a Naruto vs Sasuke fight.


To further add Goku literally craps on the concept of friendship power and support when he brushed off U2's Zirlion and friends love power by saying that love stuff is nicie and all, but i prefer GUTS and proceeds to overwhelm them with sheer brute force. Keep in mind U2 was being powered by friendship, love, and support from their teammates and entire universe that believed and put their trust in them (the very same hamfisted message this episode is delivering) and they still got oneshotted by Goku's dickish attitude due to possessing simply greater power.

However, they now want to villify Jiren and say he's in the wrong for believing in power when Goku is no different and wins his battles through sheer greater power level (regardless of reasons) You can't have your cake and it with such polarizing depictions in the narrative, Goku is a character known for being a selfish prick, yet Toei wants to pull the fast and furious "I don't need help, I got nakama" nonsense? * I'm sorry, but Goku did not get this far through his suppose allies support and trust, he got this far purely through asspull UI and Deus Ex Machina, get it right Toei.

This reminds me of Cars 3 where the story vilifies the antagonist to paint ths protagonist as being in the right from the start, that's weak storytelling to me.
"Before one may reach Heaven, they must endure Hell first. Only then will you be able to attain serenity beyond a sea of strife." & "Fear is not a sign of cowardice but the recognition of danger. Those who ignore this basic emotion do so out of vanity and are thus quelled before victory." - Roy Teal Jr.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby Vegito Black » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:22 am

Loved the episode.

On the 17 power debate the problem isn't that yeah he got strong like this in 10 years and Freeza was 4 months. The problem is future 17 was not this strong and it's the exact time period where he killed future Gohan.

Future 17 even had a super Saiyan Gohan to fight against for 10 years and never got this strong that's the inconsistent part. Present 17 has only been fighting poachers.

Still love 17 in this tournament but just saying is all

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby Kurakaio » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:31 am

Vegito Black wrote:Loved the episode.

On the 17 power debate the problem isn't that yeah he got strong like this in 10 years and Freeza was 4 months. The problem is future 17 was not this strong and it's the exact time period where he killed future Gohan.

Future 17 even had a super Saiyan Gohan to fight against for 10 years and never got this strong that's the inconsistent part. Present 17 has only been fighting poachers.

Still love 17 in this tournament but just saying is all



I'd argue that 17 trained offscreen in Super, while Future 17 just fought Gohan and fucked around. Fighting and training are different things.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby Amir » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:38 am

Doctor. wrote:
precita wrote:Jiren is an asshole who only cares about strength, and this ep showed his true colors. Not sure what you expected, Jiren was always a jackass. Glad to see it confirmed.


Yes, and that is generic and makes the character seem like a caricature of a DB villain. That was my point.

Zeno never marked 17 off as far as I remember. Likewise being an Android they shouldn't be able to sense his energy. I also don't think it makes his sacrifice pointless, it just highlights what 17 was willing to do and the surprise of seeing him still around. Looking back at it now people said his sacrifice didn't have enough impact, now I can see why because he was planned to return.


That's a poor excuse. The Grand Priest and the Angels have shown a greater ability to assess the situation than everyone else; they should have known #17 was still alive just like Whis and the Grand Priest pointed out multiple times during the tournament that someone was alive when someone thought a character was dead or knocked out. It's pointless because it's a poor bait-and-switch. It tries to get you emotionally invested in a character that you think will die only to show that he's OK after all.

Jiren is still unbelieveably powerful and Goku just mastered it with his body not being used to it. It was never supposed to make you completely un=hittable.


Again, nice excuses. A shame the show doesn't provide them to you.

This is the same thing Dragonball has always done, what the Spirit Bomb scenes are about, what characters giving Goku energy is about, and what Goku always does. He'll always save and believe in his friends and fight for them. This is what Dragonball is about.

Not exactly sure which show you've been watching, but Dragon Ball has never been this melodramatic and was always subtle in its execution of its emotional moments. You very rarely have characters blatantly screaming out what they're about, what they're fighting for and making big speeches to power-up because of their resolve. That's not Dragon Ball. That's Naruto, Bleach, Fairy Tail, garbage.


1. No. Jiren only cares about strength because he has a legit reason behind it, it was shown and executed very well in this episode so it's different from the other Z villains. And even if it wasn't different, it's not bad writing, just generic stuff the franchise has always come up with, like in all of Z.

2. It's not poor. Whis and the Grand Priest had no idea Goku was still alive after Goku took the Genki Dama head on, and they didn't know 17 had survived his own self destruction in episode 127, so it makes sense within the continuity that the Grand Priest wouldn't spot an android who can't be sensed under rubble. Nowhere was it ever stated that angels have the ability to sense everything there is and they're not all knowing, so there was absolutely nothing wrong with that objectively. Also, what's wrong with getting the viewer emotionally invested in a character that you think will die only to show that he's ok after all? I just don't get it, you just stated a fact without explaining why it's a bad thing. You are complaining over completely subjective stuff that aren't really flaws and then you call them awful writing which is wrong. I think it was a really great surprise moment. I really thought 17 was dead, but now seeing him alive surprised me, so it did it's job just perfectly, especially after that intense fight with Jiren and it also made sense 100%, he stated himself that it was a gamble and that he wasn't sure he was gonna survive. There is no flaw here, it's just that you didn't like the twist because of your own personal preferences - Just because you think a character is dead and then it's revealed that he is not doesn't make it automatically bad, it would be bad only if it made no sense at all and was flawed within the narrative context of the show.

3. I can see your point, but Whis said to Goku that not even he can't keep up with the Grand Priest and that he would lose to him easily in combat, and Whis has UI. Whis has been caught of guard before, like when he fought Goku in Vegeta in ROF and Vegeta got him from behind, or Goku biting his hand right before the TOP. So there are examples in the show that suggest UI is not completely perfect. Goku is facing a very powerful guy, strogner than GoDs, so even in UI it's no guarantee that he would be able to avoid everything, and with the examples I've mentioned earlier that show UI is not perfect, it somewhat makes sense, but I still agree with you that it needed a bit of an explanation by Whis or something to make it more clear. But that's still pretty minor and doesn't make the writing bad as a whole.

4. Emotional outbursts have always increased characters's strength in the DB franchise. Gohan constantly got massive rage boosts, Goku went SSJ, Gohan used the same rage boosts with un upgrade to become SSJ2, emotional stuff like that don't always work, they work only when the story wants which creates inconsistencies, so you might call that bad writing as well, it's kinda like the zenkai boosts, just not as bad.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby KingKaash » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:41 am

Wow beautiful episode! :clap: Aesthetically it's the best final battle we've ever seen. Storyline was insane too. I'm surprised that Jiren hates friendship this much and I would've never thought Jiren would stoop so low to blast the audience. Doing that brought out hell-bent Goku and that was Jiren's biggest mistake. Still I would give Jiren a lot of credit that he stayed almost even with Ultra Instinct Goku for most of the episode until he got Goku triggered. That just shows strong Jiren is. And that scene with everyone talking about how much Goku means to them made me teary only because this is the last time we'll see these characters in DBS.

As for the ending, that was the best ending to a DB episode ever. I thought Goku was going to get the win for sure until the negative effects of his limit-breaking shattered him in a terrifying way. That reversion from UI to base with Goku breathing heavy and then getting negative shock waves was intense. And then the internal struggle of Jiren was very interesting. Jiren wants his strength to be absolute but there he is hesitating at the end to eliminate a battered down Goku just because it doesn't feel fair even though it's a battle for survival and you should take every advantage you get without thinking twice. You could feel the uncertainty. And I like at the end how Jiren chose to blast the stage instead of blasting Goku. I felt like that was a sign of respect. And then Frieza and Android 17 jump out to save Goku! I knew Frieza was going to come back in eventually but Android 17 was a shocker. I thought he was dead and gone so I was cheering when he came back.

"Gohan, let it go. It is not a sin to fight for the right cause. There are those who words alone will not reach. Cell is such a being. I know how you feel Gohan, you are gentle, you do not like to hurt. I know because I too have learned these feelings. But it is because you cherish life that you must protect it. Please drop your restraints. Protect the life I once loved. You have the strength, my scanners sensed it..." -Android 16

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby kemuri07 » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:42 am

My issue with 17 surviving has nothing to do with whether or not he was "strong enough," it entirely has to do with the execution of his "sacrifice" and how it's completely undone by that reveal.

Like, it was already absurd that we were expected to believe that Freeza somehow was able to make his presence not known despite the fact that the ring was quickly being blown to bits, but accepting that 17, all this time, was hiding beneath a pile of rubble all along. I get that this Dragonball, and some goofy shit has occurred throughout the series, but my suspension of disbelief can only go so long.

And of course people are making their own head canon so they can justify this. Because of course they are.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby Vegeta_Sama » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:42 am

I didn't know that hearing Jiren's painful screaming would be so pleasurable. Besides that, I gotta apologize for all the people who theorized the return of 17 for making fun of them. Sorry guys :oops: .
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby 8bitdee » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:48 am

lord turbo wrote:
Not really, that's Toei's interpretation which clashes wifh Toriyama's interpretation. I ain't saying Goku is heartless, but Toriyama makes it very clear through out all of Dragon Ball its not his love for his friends or family that pushes him past his limits, Vegeta's speech while Goku is fighting Kid Buu illustrates this bluntly. Guess what, no friends or family empowering mention in sight. Goku is actually an atypical shonen character, his personality is a contrast to the standard shonen archtype. Make no mistake, he is the exception and that is what makes Goku unique.


It's also Toriyama's interpretation that Goku became the legendary SSJ after losing his best friend and obtained God Ki only through the help of his friend and family literally holding his hand.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby Dragono » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:50 am

kemuri07 wrote:My issue with 17 surviving has nothing to do with whether or not he was "strong enough," it entirely has to do with the execution of his "sacrifice" and how it's completely undone by that reveal.

Like, it was already absurd that we were expected to believe that Freeza somehow was able to make his presence not known despite the fact that the ring was quickly being blown to bits, but accepting that 17, all this time, was hiding beneath a pile of rubble all along. I get that this Dragonball, and some goofy shit has occurred throughout the series, but my suspension of disbelief can only go so long.

And of course people are making their own head canon so they can justify this. Because of course they are.

But here is the thing, this is dragon ball, 17 was going to come back either way.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby thezander » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:53 am

Will 17 and freeza fuse? Ace in the hole, also the attacks they did on jiren they were masked by blue power light stuff. The shocked look on the Kai's faces you could tell they had their earrings however I think they will fuse or combine energy in some facet.

On a different note looks like whiz was finally Dead wrong for once and Goku is back in action charging at something once again.

Also my take on the end of the series is based on the title, farewell until we me again? How could they meet again unless it was possible? Maybe this universe eraser thing isn't as permanent as I thought considering the recent news about movies.

.

Oh now about the attempted attack at the stands. First off how could it be u7 directed solely? They are clearly clustered together krillin is practically rubbing elbows with that lizard God. Besides all of that godly power bundled there u7 had angels there, I'm talking whiz and Marie they could double tap their staff and have a mega dome. Beerus could swipe it away clean. That was clearly not a good faith effort, jiren knew it wasn't going to do anything, he was testing this theory he's rejecting. He knows Goku will flip out once you throw an energy bomb at his boys so he did it intentionally. He wanted that blow up in power that is crushing his reality which it then does and Goku bust him through 5 blocks teeth first. Jiren got what he wanted and Goku realized that too.


Now my confusion with jiren begins, what does everyone get from him character wise did he have a major reveal twist of ideals. Up to this day I thought jiren was all about team work and togetherness I mean he's the first member of the dk crew, the justice guys. However all along he never believed in it and in fact believed the absolute polar opposite. I don't care at all about this but I'm wondering if I am picking up on it correctly.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby sangofe » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:55 am

prince212 wrote:
sangofe wrote:So... I'm asking this question because I hope for a couple of people to quote me and reply; is this worth watching twice? I have planned to watch it with a real life friend tomorrow but it's 7 am and I can't sleep more on this sunday morning.

So is this worth watching twice for the action, the art, the animation, the fight itself? Or should I just wait a little bit more and just whatch it one time?

It’s , but is worthed to watch the first time with somebody just for the emotion , after that alone , so ... wait hahahaha



I watched it now either way. Whoa, this has gotta be the best animated episode of the entire Dragon Ball franchise ever. Like good movie quality. Everything's perfect here. And I'd NEVER imagine 17 still being in the game! Freeza I'm not surprised about. I wonder how the last episode will conclude...

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby Nevaeh » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:56 am

Bullza wrote:Take a look at this, someone has uploaded a video of the episode being shown in a bar in Mexico and everyone goes nuts watching it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=307s&v=phbGt_7Qvj8

Seen on twitter that they packed a stadium or some shit to watch the episode :shock:

Bandai not giving Latin America their own dub for DB video games continues to be criminal

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby lord turbo » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:04 am

8bitdee wrote:
lord turbo wrote:
Not really, that's Toei's interpretation which clashes wifh Toriyama's interpretation. I ain't saying Goku is heartless, but Toriyama makes it very clear through out all of Dragon Ball its not his love for his friends or family that pushes him past his limits, Vegeta's speech while Goku is fighting Kid Buu illustrates this bluntly. Guess what, no friends or family empowering mention in sight. Goku is actually an atypical shonen character, his personality is a contrast to the standard shonen archtype. Make no mistake, he is the exception and that is what makes Goku unique.


It's also Toriyama's interpretation that Goku became the legendary SSJ after losing his best friend and obtained God Ki only through the help of his friend and family literally holding his hand.


SSJ had nothing to do with his friends putting their trust, support, and belief into Goku to utilize nakama power, in fact, it was a freak accident that just happened to unlock a transformation for him and Goku outright stated he hated the fact he was forced to rely on others to attain something he couldn't get on his own only to rejoice when he made that same power his own.

I would like to think context is important here.
"Before one may reach Heaven, they must endure Hell first. Only then will you be able to attain serenity beyond a sea of strife." & "Fear is not a sign of cowardice but the recognition of danger. Those who ignore this basic emotion do so out of vanity and are thus quelled before victory." - Roy Teal Jr.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby Dragono » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:14 am

lord turbo wrote:
8bitdee wrote:
lord turbo wrote:
Not really, that's Toei's interpretation which clashes wifh Toriyama's interpretation. I ain't saying Goku is heartless, but Toriyama makes it very clear through out all of Dragon Ball its not his love for his friends or family that pushes him past his limits, Vegeta's speech while Goku is fighting Kid Buu illustrates this bluntly. Guess what, no friends or family empowering mention in sight. Goku is actually an atypical shonen character, his personality is a contrast to the standard shonen archtype. Make no mistake, he is the exception and that is what makes Goku unique.


It's also Toriyama's interpretation that Goku became the legendary SSJ after losing his best friend and obtained God Ki only through the help of his friend and family literally holding his hand.


SSJ had nothing to do with his friends putting their trust, support, and belief into Goku to utilize nakama power, in fact, it was a freak accident that just happened to unlock a transformation for him and Goku outright stated he hated the fact he was forced to rely on others to attain something he couldn't get on his own only to rejoice when he made that same power his own.

I would like to think context is important here.

nah, goku going super saiyan because his best friend died is the basis for nakama power. your friends give you strength. while the levels vary, like fairy tail is known for, hell even one piece does it, its still there.


besides goku lost anyway, so what does it matter.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby 8bitdee » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:22 am

Guys, this sequence...

Image
Image


...is reused animation.

Image
Image


How dare you Toei??!!

You're all wrong, this episode actually sucks.



:lol:

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby sangofe » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:24 am

8bitdee wrote:Guys, this sequence...

Image
Image


...is reused animation.

Image
Image


How dare you Toei??!!

You're all wrong, this episode actually sucks.



:lol:


I'm not sure if you're serious or not, and I don't care if some of it is re-used. I just don't give a damn. It's beautiful. It flows well, the fight coregraphy's great. The things that happened were unexpected to me. I'm happy.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby 8bitdee » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:25 am

sangofe wrote:
I'm not sure if you're serious or not, and I don't care if some of it is re-used. I just don't give a damn. It's beautiful. It flows well, the fight coregraphy's great. The things that happened were unexpected to me. I'm happy.


Maybe just one laughing emoji was not enough to show my intent.

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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby Vegeta_Sama » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:35 am

8bitdee wrote:
sangofe wrote:
I'm not sure if you're serious or not, and I don't care if some of it is re-used. I just don't give a damn. It's beautiful. It flows well, the fight coregraphy's great. The things that happened were unexpected to me. I'm happy.


Maybe just one laughing emoji was not enough to show my intent.

Rule n.1: always gotta put at least 5 laughing emojis
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Re: Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

Postby lord turbo » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:41 am

Dragono wrote:
lord turbo wrote:
8bitdee wrote:
It's also Toriyama's interpretation that Goku became the legendary SSJ after losing his best friend and obtained God Ki only through the help of his friend and family literally holding his hand.


SSJ had nothing to do with his friends putting their trust, support, and belief into Goku to utilize nakama power, in fact, it was a freak accident that just happened to unlock a transformation for him and Goku outright stated he hated the fact he was forced to rely on others to attain something he couldn't get on his own only to rejoice when he made that same power his own.

I would like to think context is important here.

nah, goku going super saiyan because his best friend died is the basis for nakama power. your friends give you strength. while the levels vary, like fairy tail is known for, hell even one piece does it, its still there.


besides goku lost anyway, so what does it matter.


I would disagree with that since its not nakama or more commonly known as power of friendship, but standard rage power up. PoF is typically what you see in Fairy Tail, One Piece, Toriko, Saint Seiya, YYH, Rurouni Kenshin, or Bleach (not even limited to shonen as we see this in Guardians of the Galaxy, though its hard to tell if that'a PoF or Power.of Love) where the protagonist is beaten into a corner and the voices or thoughts of his allies running through his head (usually followed by a montage) gives them not only the Rocky Balboa style second wind, but a mysterious huge surge of new found power, typically allowing the protagonist to overwhelm the antagonist.

Today's episode is a text book example, we've have never before seen that happen in DB until recently with DBS.
"Before one may reach Heaven, they must endure Hell first. Only then will you be able to attain serenity beyond a sea of strife." & "Fear is not a sign of cowardice but the recognition of danger. Those who ignore this basic emotion do so out of vanity and are thus quelled before victory." - Roy Teal Jr.


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