Y’know... I don’t get Toei/Toriyama/Toyotaro’s decisions at times.

[Marlowe89]

I've seen more people hyped or cautiously optimistic for this than people who are legitimately angry.

Put me in the 'cautiously optimistic' camp. The concept of Broly is honestly fine in my eyes, it's the execution that was always trash. With Toriyama having a lot of involvement, I think there's some untapped potential here at least.

[jeffbr92]

Put me in the 'cautiously optimistic' camp. The concept of Broly is honestly fine in my eyes, it's the execution that was always trash. With Toriyama having a lot of involvement, I think there's some untapped potential here at least.

How so?

[sintzu]

Super sure has been brimming with originality. I guess the Champa arc is as good as it gets.

Alternate saiyan and Freeza aren't that original.

[HeroR]

Oh jeez the over reactions already makes me want to steer away from when the main thread opens. People already throwing the "lazy" world around... Give me strength.

Take my advise, this site is the last place you want to be when anything happens. Come here for the news and then run for the exit.

[Yuli Ban]

Put me in the 'cautiously optimistic' camp. The concept of Broly is honestly fine in my eyes, it's the execution that was always trash. With Toriyama having a lot of involvement, I think there's some untapped potential here at least.

How so?

I mean if you want to get real fundamental, Broly is basically just Evil Sun Wukong. Like if you fused Goku and Broly together (not referring to Karoly), kept the crown, and gave them Gohan's special outfit, you'd literally have a DB-fied Sun Wukong in full. Not even a parody anymore.
I can always go for more Sun Wukong, as long as there's a reason.

Likewise, in universe, Broly is a victim of King Vegeta and Freeza's paranoia. Freeza feared the Saiyans outright because of the possibility of the Legendary Super Saiyan arising, and King Vegeta feared Broly because he knew that he was the one Freeza feared and had to get rid of him. As "Chosen One" stories always go, Broly survived and fulfilled the prophecy, only to discover he was too late to overthrow Freeza because some upstart named Kakarot already did it, except Freeza's now back and it's apparently Kakarot's fau—

Wait.

I hope I'm not inadvertently spoiling the movie somehow.

[SupremeKai25]

I was confident that we were going to get an arc full of original concepts, but I guess I was wrong. Now we have...
1. Evil Goku

"Evil Goku" was actually Zamasu, a young Supreme Kai in-training who wanted multiversal peace and order through annihilation of all lesser species, and believed himself to be the sole harbringer of justice in a multiverse ruled by worthless Gods and tainted by violent mortals. That is an original concept for a Dragon Ball villain.

[PFM18]

I was confident that we were going to get an arc full of original concepts, but I guess I was wrong. Now we have...
1. Evil Goku

"Evil Goku" was actually Zamasu, a young Supreme Kai in-training who wanted multiversal peace and order through annihilation of all lesser species, and believed himself to be the sole harbringer of justice in a multiverse ruled by worthless Gods and tainted by violent mortals. That is an original concept for a Dragon Ball villain.

Yeah he gave probably the worst possible example of an unoriginal concept

[Bergamo]

Super sure has been brimming with originality. I guess the Champa arc is as good as it gets.

Alternate saiyan and Freeza aren't that original.

It's original comparatively. Besides, analogs of characters we've seen before is better than characters we've seen before.

I was confident that we were going to get an arc full of original concepts, but I guess I was wrong. Now we have...
1. Evil Goku

"Evil Goku" was actually Zamasu, a young Supreme Kai in-training who wanted multiversal peace and order through annihilation of all lesser species, and believed himself to be the sole harbringer of justice in a multiverse ruled by worthless Gods and tainted by violent mortals. That is an original concept for a Dragon Ball villain.

Yeah he gave probably the worst possible example of an unoriginal concept

I just want to clarify that I don't dislike Goku Black, and that I actually like Zamas. The Black arc turned out fine, but when I see evil Goku and Future Trunks, I just see dollar signs, and it kind of detracts from my overall enjoyment, if only a bit. Also, Black is either evil Goku like in the anime, or exactly the same as Zamas like in the manga. Both interpretations have their problems.

[Master Xar]

Super sure has been brimming with originality. I guess the Champa arc is as good as it gets.

Alternate saiyan and Freeza aren't that original.

It's original comparatively. Besides, analogs of characters we've seen before is better than characters we've seen before.

"Evil Goku" was actually Zamasu, a young Supreme Kai in-training who wanted multiversal peace and order through annihilation of all lesser species, and believed himself to be the sole harbringer of justice in a multiverse ruled by worthless Gods and tainted by violent mortals. That is an original concept for a Dragon Ball villain.

Yeah he gave probably the worst possible example of an unoriginal concept

I just want to clarify that I don't dislike Goku Black, and that I actually like Zamas. The Black arc turned out fine, but when I see evil Goku and Future Trunks, I just see dollar signs, and it kind of detracts from my overall enjoyment, if only a bit. Also, Black is either evil Goku like in the anime, or exactly the same as Zamas like in the manga. Both interpretations have their problems.

So then why mind it? Shiuesha and his editors may give him ideas here and there, but they are made with Toriyama’s heart and soul put into them as well as the staff that are working on the show, if they didn’t care about Super or the quality of it we’d have been nowhere near close to the animation quality of the ToP arc nor the really good filler in the show. This is going to be a complete reboot of Broly with a supposed multi-faceted story and a “new side” to his character if not just a complete remake of his personality and backstory.

There is heart and soul in the show, just a few loose cogs in the works messing up the potential of things.

[Bergamo]

Alternate saiyan and Freeza aren't that original.

It's original comparatively. Besides, analogs of characters we've seen before is better than characters we've seen before.

Yeah he gave probably the worst possible example of an unoriginal concept

I just want to clarify that I don't dislike Goku Black, and that I actually like Zamas. The Black arc turned out fine, but when I see evil Goku and Future Trunks, I just see dollar signs, and it kind of detracts from my overall enjoyment, if only a bit. Also, Black is either evil Goku like in the anime, or exactly the same as Zamas like in the manga. Both interpretations have their problems.

So then why mind it? Shiuesha and his editors may give him ideas here and there, but they are made with Toriyama’s heart and soul put into them as well as the staff that are working on the show, if they didn’t care about Super or the quality of it we’d have been nowhere near close to the animation quality of the ToP arc nor the really good filler in the show. This is going to be a complete reboot of Broly with a supposed multi-faceted story and a “new side” to his character if not just a complete remake of his personality and backstory.

There is heart and soul in the show, just a few loose cogs in the works messing up the potential of things.

Unoriginal ideas are still limited in how good they can be despite execution. Frieza obtaining godly strength in 6 months and the super regeneration chamber were pretty lazy concepts that obviously existed to allow Goku vs Frieza to happen. Zamas taking Goku's body was also not done very well.

I don't think that Broly's appearance means that movie 20 will automatically be bad, but it's upsetting when they could do much better with an original idea.

[sintzu]

It's upsetting when they could do much better with an original idea.

I understand why fans want original ideas but I also understand why the heads of DB are falling back on familiar ground. If you can make 60-70 million on an original idea or 80+ million on a familiar idea, what would you do ? Keep in mind that everyone from Toriyama to Toei's staff are telling you they can make said familiar idea work so you won't be forcing them to do something they don't want to.

[Bergamo]

It's upsetting when they could do much better with an original idea.

I understand why fans want original ideas but I also understand why the heads of DB are falling back on familiar ground. If you can make 60-70 million on an original idea or 80+ million on a familiar idea, what would you do ? Keep in mind that everyone from Toriyama to Toei's staff are telling you they can make said familiar idea work so you won't be forcing them to do something they don't want to.

I don't agree with creators sacrificing quality and originality for marketability. It's still important for an new entry to enrich the lore of the series. If we have 5 more arcs that recycle villains, take place before Uub, and don't expand upon who created the super dragon balls and why, then even if they are enjoyable to watch, what does it do for the series besides make money?

[Master Xar]

It's original comparatively. Besides, analogs of characters we've seen before is better than characters we've seen before.

I just want to clarify that I don't dislike Goku Black, and that I actually like Zamas. The Black arc turned out fine, but when I see evil Goku and Future Trunks, I just see dollar signs, and it kind of detracts from my overall enjoyment, if only a bit. Also, Black is either evil Goku like in the anime, or exactly the same as Zamas like in the manga. Both interpretations have their problems.

So then why mind it? Shiuesha and his editors may give him ideas here and there, but they are made with Toriyama’s heart and soul put into them as well as the staff that are working on the show, if they didn’t care about Super or the quality of it we’d have been nowhere near close to the animation quality of the ToP arc nor the really good filler in the show. This is going to be a complete reboot of Broly with a supposed multi-faceted story and a “new side” to his character if not just a complete remake of his personality and backstory.

There is heart and soul in the show, just a few loose cogs in the works messing up the potential of things.

Unoriginal ideas are still limited in how good they can be despite execution. Frieza obtaining godly strength in 6 months and the super regeneration chamber were pretty lazy concepts that obviously existed to allow Goku vs Frieza to happen. Zamas taking Goku's body was also not done very well.

I don't think that Broly's appearance means that movie 20 will automatically be bad, but it's upsetting when they could do much better with an original idea.

Wrong. Execution and purpose the story is going for is everything, you can do infinitely different amounts of things with an old idea just as much as you can do with an original one. And that’s an oversimplified version of the movie and it’s purpose. Zamasu taking Goku’s body was a purpose to his motive and what drives him, his reason for taking Goku’s body was actually very good, he sees Goku as a symbol of all the failures of both the gods and the mortals, he sees himself as a martyr, he does all he does and truly believes in his justice.

Again. Maybe, maybe not. You can’t really say that when it’s just the one character that’s getting rebooted or what the story is to contextualize him being there.

[HeroR]

So then why mind it? Shiuesha and his editors may give him ideas here and there, but they are made with Toriyama’s heart and soul put into them as well as the staff that are working on the show, if they didn’t care about Super or the quality of it we’d have been nowhere near close to the animation quality of the ToP arc nor the really good filler in the show. This is going to be a complete reboot of Broly with a supposed multi-faceted story and a “new side” to his character if not just a complete remake of his personality and backstory.

There is heart and soul in the show, just a few loose cogs in the works messing up the potential of things.

Unoriginal ideas are still limited in how good they can be despite execution. Frieza obtaining godly strength in 6 months and the super regeneration chamber were pretty lazy concepts that obviously existed to allow Goku vs Frieza to happen. Zamas taking Goku's body was also not done very well.

I don't think that Broly's appearance means that movie 20 will automatically be bad, but it's upsetting when they could do much better with an original idea.

Wrong. Execution and purpose the story is going for is everything, you can do infinitely different amounts of things with an old idea just as much as you can do with an original one. And that’s an oversimplified version of the movie and it’s purpose. Zamasu taking Goku’s body was a purpose to his motive and what drives him, his reason for taking Goku’s body was actually very good, he sees Goku as a symbol of all the failures of both the gods and the mortals, he sees himself as a martyr, he does all he does and truly believes in his justice.

Again. Maybe, maybe not. You can’t really say that when it’s just the one character that’s getting rebooted or what the story is to contextualize him being there.

Wanted to add, in terms of storytelling there are no ‘original ideas’. Any ‘original’ story you can think of for Dragon Ball has been done somewhere. What makes an idea work is always its execution. For example, people loved the Android/Cell Saga despite it being Toriyama’s version of Terminator. That and Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 is almost a copy of Goku going Super Saiyan on Namek, yet people love it.

I mean, the original base of Dragon Ball was Journey to the West.

[Master Xar]

Unoriginal ideas are still limited in how good they can be despite execution. Frieza obtaining godly strength in 6 months and the super regeneration chamber were pretty lazy concepts that obviously existed to allow Goku vs Frieza to happen. Zamas taking Goku's body was also not done very well.

I don't think that Broly's appearance means that movie 20 will automatically be bad, but it's upsetting when they could do much better with an original idea.

Wrong. Execution and purpose the story is going for is everything, you can do infinitely different amounts of things with an old idea just as much as you can do with an original one. And that’s an oversimplified version of the movie and it’s purpose. Zamasu taking Goku’s body was a purpose to his motive and what drives him, his reason for taking Goku’s body was actually very good, he sees Goku as a symbol of all the failures of both the gods and the mortals, he sees himself as a martyr, he does all he does and truly believes in his justice.

Again. Maybe, maybe not. You can’t really say that when it’s just the one character that’s getting rebooted or what the story is to contextualize him being there.

Wanted to add, in terms of storytelling there are no ‘original ideas’. Any ‘original’ story you can think of for Dragon Ball has been done somewhere. What makes an idea work is always its execution. For example, people loved the Android/Cell Saga despite it being Toriyama’s version of Terminator. That and Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 is almost a copy of Goku going Super Saiyan on Namek, yet people love it.

I mean, the original base of Dragon Ball was Journey to the West.

Exactly. “Pure originality” is a either extremely rare or can be found in some form somewhere else. Go to TV Tropes and look at any medium. There really isn’t much nowadays the doesn’t fall under a blanket or is “cliché” I don’t fault a story for a having a Tsunderé or Yanderé, it’s how they pull off and execute how that is what I judge a story on and if it’s my cup of tea? Hell yeah.

[Bergamo]

Wrong. Execution and purpose the story is going for is everything, you can do infinitely different amounts of things with an old idea just as much as you can do with an original one. And that’s an oversimplified version of the movie and it’s purpose. Zamasu taking Goku’s body was a purpose to his motive and what drives him, his reason for taking Goku’s body was actually very good, he sees Goku as a symbol of all the failures of both the gods and the mortals, he sees himself as a martyr, he does all he does and truly believes in his justice.

Again. Maybe, maybe not. You can’t really say that when it’s just the one character that’s getting rebooted or what the story is to contextualize him being there.

Wanted to add, in terms of storytelling there are no ‘original ideas’. Any ‘original’ story you can think of for Dragon Ball has been done somewhere. What makes an idea work is always its execution. For example, people loved the Android/Cell Saga despite it being Toriyama’s version of Terminator. That and Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 is almost a copy of Goku going Super Saiyan on Namek, yet people love it.

I mean, the original base of Dragon Ball was Journey to the West.

Exactly. “Pure originality” is a either extremely rare or can be found in some form somewhere else. Go to TV Tropes and look at any medium. There really isn’t much nowadays the doesn’t fall under a blanket or is “cliché” I don’t fault a story for a having a Tsunderé or Yanderé, it’s how they pull off and execute how that is what I judge a story on and if it’s my cup of tea? Hell yeah.

Writing a story that is vaguely similar to something that has been written previously in time is not the same thing as literally reusing a character. That's a laughable concept, and it implies that the only way to make content is to emulate other popular stories.

[HeroR]

Wanted to add, in terms of storytelling there are no ‘original ideas’. Any ‘original’ story you can think of for Dragon Ball has been done somewhere. What makes an idea work is always its execution. For example, people loved the Android/Cell Saga despite it being Toriyama’s version of Terminator. That and Gohan going Super Saiyan 2 is almost a copy of Goku going Super Saiyan on Namek, yet people love it.

I mean, the original base of Dragon Ball was Journey to the West.

Exactly. “Pure originality” is a either extremely rare or can be found in some form somewhere else. Go to TV Tropes and look at any medium. There really isn’t much nowadays the doesn’t fall under a blanket or is “cliché” I don’t fault a story for a having a Tsunderé or Yanderé, it’s how they pull off and execute how that is what I judge a story on and if it’s my cup of tea? Hell yeah.

Writing a story that is vaguely similar to something that has been written previously in time is not the same thing as literally reusing a character. That's a laughable concept, and it implies that the only way to make content is to emulate other popular stories.

Except in the case of Broly it is a reimagined of an old character not the same character, something done in fiction all the time. Like Goku himself is a reimagined character. Your point would make more sense if we were talking about Freeza or the return of Black.

[Bergamo]

Exactly. “Pure originality” is a either extremely rare or can be found in some form somewhere else. Go to TV Tropes and look at any medium. There really isn’t much nowadays the doesn’t fall under a blanket or is “cliché” I don’t fault a story for a having a Tsunderé or Yanderé, it’s how they pull off and execute how that is what I judge a story on and if it’s my cup of tea? Hell yeah.

Writing a story that is vaguely similar to something that has been written previously in time is not the same thing as literally reusing a character. That's a laughable concept, and it implies that the only way to make content is to emulate other popular stories.

Except in the case of Broly it is a reimagined of an old character not the same character, something done in fiction all the time. Like Goku himself is a reimagined character. Your point would make more sense if we were talking about Freeza or the return of Black.

How do you not understand that making Broly 4 and very loosely basing 1 arc of a series on journey to the west are different things?

[Master Xar]

Writing a story that is vaguely similar to something that has been written previously in time is not the same thing as literally reusing a character. That's a laughable concept, and it implies that the only way to make content is to emulate other popular stories.

Except in the case of Broly it is a reimagined of an old character not the same character, something done in fiction all the time. Like Goku himself is a reimagined character. Your point would make more sense if we were talking about Freeza or the return of Black.

How do you not understand that making Broly 4 and very loosely basing 1 arc of a series on journey to the west are different things?

It’s literally been over a decade since the last “official” Broly movie and this is a remake, and yes that’s generally how something can be based as a “ripoff.” You see it all the time with modern shows like MHA being a “ripoff/recycled.” It’s what Shonen is called all the time by non-shonen fans.

And that still doesn’t effect the overall quality and execution of the story. It’s purely subjective.

[Bergamo]

Except in the case of Broly it is a reimagined of an old character not the same character, something done in fiction all the time. Like Goku himself is a reimagined character. Your point would make more sense if we were talking about Freeza or the return of Black.

How do you not understand that making Broly 4 and very loosely basing 1 arc of a series on journey to the west are different things?

It’s literally been over a decade since the last “official” Broly movie and this is a remake, and yes that’s generally how something can be based as a “ripoff.” You see it all the time with modern shows like MHA being a “ripoff/recycled.” It’s what Shonen is called all the time by non-shonen fans.

And that still doesn’t effect the overall quality and execution of the story. It’s purely subjective.

Just answer one question for me. Would you have a problem with Super if it was entirely composed of ideas recycled from previous entries in the series, but with good execution?