I think Toriyama's time is over with the Dragonball series

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by kn83 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:55 pm

Cetra wrote:
kn83 wrote:There is no Dragonball without Toriyama, GT proved that lol.
GT "proves" nothing. That is an absolutely unscientific claim.
The point was that there's no way you could make good official DB product without Toriyama's direct input.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by PFM18 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 8:25 pm

SuperCyan2 wrote:
PFM18 wrote:Of the 4 Dragon ball series the only one that you could objectively say is bad is the only one not written by Toriyama. I do not think that this is a coincidence. The other three are amazing(only the latter half for super but still)
Something being 'poor' is subjective in all of its entirety. You may not like it but that doesn't mean it's necessarily bad either, unfortunately GT was cursed by the 'Not a Toriyama series' and many based on that alone despise it without giving it a fair chance. I love GT and would happily watch it any day over Super.

I find it funny you'd call Super "amazing" but hey, that's your opinion so I respect it.
Well to a certain extent all of this is subjective but calling GT a "failure" is as close to bjective as you are going to get in these conversations.

I thought the Baby arc in GT(not the black star db arc) was pretty good but everything else is downright awful.

To me atleast Super past episode 47 has been as good or better than ODB and DBZ.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Asura » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:22 pm

The man gets paid to scribble notes on a napkin after a night at the bar and handing it off to Toyotaro and TOEI, I doubt that he's done with the series.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Sonofman » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:27 pm

I do humbly think Akira is still in love with the whole Dragonball series. I just don't think he'll be as interactive with it as he was with DB or DBZ. I mean, the guy is getting pretty old now, but he still has lots of ideas still left to tell! Who knows! Maybe he'll stop being involved with the DBS series. It's his choice! :D
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by prince212 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:29 pm

Sonofman wrote:I do humbly think Akira is still in love with the whole Dragonball series. I just don't think he'll be as interactive with it as he was with DB or DBZ. I mean, the guy is getting pretty old now, but he still has lots of ideas still left to tell! Who knows! Maybe he'll stop being involved with the DBS series. It's his choice! :D
62 years is not extremely old , sure he can !!!!
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by sintzu » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:56 am

Cetra wrote:If what you say were true - which it is not...
If what I say isn't true then GT would've gone above and beyond 100 episodes, not get cancelled after 64.
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Analytical Delusion » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:47 am

kn83 wrote:There is no Dragonball without Toriyama, GT proved that lol.
Spot on. This is how I feel as well.

I'm not really interested in Dragon Ball, other than the universe (or I guess I should say multiverse?) Toriyama envisions. It's difficult enough trying to parse out which ideas are and are not his from Super. If he walks away, then the story is over.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Firebolt » Sat Mar 24, 2018 5:10 am

Analytical Delusion wrote:
kn83 wrote:There is no Dragonball without Toriyama, GT proved that lol.
Spot on. This is how I feel as well.

I'm not really interested in Dragon Ball, other than the universe (or I guess I should say multiverse?) Toriyama envisions. It's difficult enough trying to parse out which ideas are and are not his from Super. If he walks away, then the story is over.
This 100%. GT lacked the "Toriyama feel" that DB, Z and Super (to a lesser degree) had, and it suffered severely because of it. Super - despite it's numerous flaws - still is very enjoyable due the aforementioned "Toriyama feel".

If Toriyama retires completely and someone like Toyotaro takes over - I'd be concerned about the future of DB. Despite the Super manga's more consistent writing, it's plot points and "epicness" felt a bit too tame in my eyes, as if Toyo is unwilling to take risks. Toyo absolutely butchered the characterization and backstory of Goku Black and Zamasu.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by sintzu » Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:05 am

Firebolt wrote:If Toriyama retires completely and someone like Toyotaro takes over - I'd be concerned about the future of DB.
He's the closest one working with Toriyama so if anyone's qualified it's him. Although I like the manga more than the anime, I don't think he's in a place to take over now but he should be after a few more years working with Toriyama.
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Cetra » Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:36 am

PFM18 wrote: GT was objectively a poor series but it still doesn't PROVE anything. It isn't definitively saying anything it still ultimately comes down to your opinion whether or not it was still alive
Just because you guys add more big words like "proves", "factually" or "objectively" from the scientific side does not make it more true. GT cannot be an objectively bad series from a purely universal, unrelated perspective. It can only be a bad series if you have already set a certain standard and only in this relation it can be considered "bad". It is not possible however to call it a "bad" series objectively in absolutely every standard. And it is quite silly to claim that under all circumstances it is as not everyone lives with the set standards of you guys.
kn83 wrote:
The point was that there's no way you could make good official DB product without Toriyama's direct input.

I know what the point was. And it is still baseless. "GT suxxorz, it ain't cannnnnen, Toriyama didn't write it!!!!oneoneone" does not make GT or any other series or product of the franchise actually bad. It is just the 8732454658777654th expression of the same opinion and that's it. I despise Fukkatsu no F but if that is what you want, go for it. Akira Toriyama will always be honoured for the work he did but treating him like he is the only one who can produce a "Dragon Ball feeling"; which is wrong from the get-go (why? because then I would not feel the same and if yours count, mine count as well) as so many people for so long work on the franchise and have also produced products that so many love and recognize as Dragon Ball. And as a matter of fact, what I feel "different" sometimes from Dragon Ball is something I adore lots of and is part of the best of the franchise I have ever seen because Dragon Ball overall when compared to shows with lots of narration can get very shallow for someone like me who watches such shows or plays mostly JRPGs. Every new feeling or glimpse of more writing is welcomed by me. The most beloved moment for me might be Pan recognizing that Goku is still here, shedding a tear and then flying back with the background music. And I am grateful that Toei is included in this work. Such am I also grateful for the Toei version of the Zamasu arc as the original idea sounds like something where I would have said "cool ideas that ultimately fell short here and there" while the Toei version truly gave me what I can call at least a good attempt.
Last edited by Cetra on Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:58 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Luffy123 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 6:37 am

Agree Toriyama isn't a good writer PlagueOfGripes makes a pretty good video all 3 of them r quite interesting however the last 2 is most important. He's a great artist or atleast was because Jiren and other universe designs r pretty bad, he the man who made some the most iconic designs not just db and dbz however games like chrono trigger, dragon quest.... Plus he's a great on the moment mangaka he knows how to make a moment cool because he how he utlise page of a manga making some dynamic panels. Plus he fantastic in gag like original dragon ball where his character was much much better.

I think his involvement is key however considering how bad GT was, Toriyama really the only one who can do it but just he's a misguided writer. a lot of the dialogue in super not even coming from him just him providing notes thats why Toei in super is so lost they literally have no real direction while Toyotarō because its not a community he can make the story how he wants it. Thats why the writing in the manga much better, despite the action sequences in the anime being better obviously however Toyotaro fast paced nature and concise script is much better to view. Heck the tournament of Power in the manga actually feels like a battle royale and 46min seem more legit where as super 46min hahaha.

Toriyama just needs to work with one other person so the other person ( who is a talent writer and script) can make sense of it.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Sonofman » Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:58 am

prince212 wrote:
Sonofman wrote:I do humbly think Akira is still in love with the whole Dragonball series. I just don't think he'll be as interactive with it as he was with DB or DBZ. I mean, the guy is getting pretty old now, but he still has lots of ideas still left to tell! Who knows! Maybe he'll stop being involved with the DBS series. It's his choice! :D
62 years is not extremely old , sure he can !!!!

You never know when you'll just drop dead though. It can be today, tomorrow, or the next hour. We live in a place where people are dying every single minute. Akira is not immune to that. But, we'll at least continue to see what he's been up to this year with the up-coming movie.
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Shinsa » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:20 am

Doctor. wrote:
sintzu wrote:The Bardock special is just that, a special. They tried to continue DB as a series without Toriyama and it failed, despite there being some really good ideas.
I mean, there are plenty of other series that also continued without the original author and have had fantastic results. Just look at most franchises in the West. I don't think that's a good example at all.

GT failed because it was a cash-grab. I'm talking about bringing someone in who has a vision and genuine love for the series, not letting the Toei execs mess around with the universe for the sake of selling more merch. Because that's basically what Super is already.

This 1000%

What Dragonball needs is a person with vision and passion. Clearly Toei is in it for money and not thinking to create a good product which would be an extention of DB. I also think the "dont fix what ain't broke" is a silly excuse. DB super fails because the show relies on nostalgia and tropes from the past.

I always give Legend of Korra as an example. Not as great as Last Air bender but it evolved its universe, story telling and characters to match the time we live in now. Dragonball is a kids show but Toriyama and Toei should understand that plenty of people in there 30s...heck even 40s love the series! The show should have also appealed to us, not dumbing it down for kids with its terrible writing and characters....and quite frankly juvenile comedy.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by sintzu » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:29 am

Shinsa wrote:Toei is in it for money and not thinking to create a good product which would be an extention of DB. DB super fails because the show relies on nostalgia and tropes from the past.

Toriyama and Toei should understand that plenty of people in there 30s...heck even 40s love the series! The show should have also appealed to us, not dumbing it down for kids with its terrible writing and characters....and quite frankly juvenile comedy.
The problem is that Super's success is based on how much merchandise it sells, not the quality of the show itself so to them, it's a huge hit.

I fully agree with this as DB (the original manga and anime) and other Shonen are enjoyed by people of all ages with One Piece's fan base mostly being adults but like I said, they're in it for the merchandise, not the show itself. Thankfully the manga is a lot closer to the original so at least we have that.
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by Vegeta_Sama » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:31 pm

Toriyama stepping down? Now way that would be good. If anything he needs to get more involved and give Toei and Toyotaro more to wrok with. After all, he's the only one who can truly write Dragon Ball.
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by kn83 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:34 pm

sintzu wrote:
Shinsa wrote:Toei is in it for money and not thinking to create a good product which would be an extention of DB. DB super fails because the show relies on nostalgia and tropes from the past.

Toriyama and Toei should understand that plenty of people in there 30s...heck even 40s love the series! The show should have also appealed to us, not dumbing it down for kids with its terrible writing and characters....and quite frankly juvenile comedy.
The problem is that Super's success is based on how much merchandise it sells, not the quality of the show itself so to them, it's a huge hit.

I fully agree with this as DB (the original manga and anime) and other Shonen are enjoyed by people of all ages with One Piece's fan base mostly being adults but like I said, they're in it for the merchandise, not the show itself. Thankfully the manga is a lot closer to the original so at least we have that.
The Super manga is in many ways worse than the anime, especially when it comes to the Black arc.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by sintzu » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:50 pm

kn83 wrote:The Super manga is in many ways worse than the anime, especially when it comes to the Black arc.
I think the manga's Black arc is a huge improvement over the anime's as the pacing is better and things make more sense.
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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by kn83 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:53 pm

Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Doctor. wrote: I don't have any nostalgic attachment towards the franchise and Super still can't touch the original series. This excuse is stupid.
It isn't necessarily an excuse. i am not excusing anything considering I didn't concede the notion that Super needs fixing and then make an excuse for it. I was just trying to rationalize the hatred for it because I don't really understand it. Like I said episode 130 is to many(including me) the single greatest episode of the entire franchise. And for good reason it had everything going for it. If anything the story elements have progressed further especially from the painfully generic villain who is "evil just for the sake of being evil" in contrast with Zamasu and his motives and Jiren being the main antagonist but still a good person.
You never just had just 'evil for the sake of being evil' characters considering Majin Vegeta, Roshi, Tenshinhan, the androids, Piccolo and Mr. Boo were all antagonists in the original series. 130 is everything but good in terms of its writing. It's a vast departure from the way that the original series portrayed itself and it seems to me more like a ploy to grab the fans of modern, lesser Shounen that rely heavily on emotional manipulation and melodrama masquerading as 'deep' character drama to gain viewers. I won't blame this on Toriyama though; I'm almost sure it was Toei's doing, but this doesn't excuse Toriyama's terrible plot points and ideas all throughout the modern DB revival, starting with Resurrection 'F' way back in 2015.
Saiyan saga Vegeta, Piccolo and his dad, The Crane School, Frieza, The Red Ribbon army, The Future Androids, Cell, Evil Buu, anyone from the movies and the Shadow Dragons were all "evil for the sake of being evil" characters, so stop lying to yourself. Roshi was never an antagonist/villain in the first place either. Jiren (who isn't even a villain), Goku Black and Zamasu are all types of antagonist that Dragonball had never seen before and had better motivations for who they are than the majority of the original villains. Even TeamFourStar of all people pointed that out. Trying to downplay the quality of ep.130 show how blinded by nostalgia you are. And what exactly is so "cheap" about the way Jiren was potrayed in ep.130, what exactly was the major writing problems? Goku vs Jiren was essentially a fight between different ideals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyaKrvRipXY, rather than the usual battle between good vs evil. Its like these delusional nostalgia-tards refuse to admit it whenever Super does anything better than Z and Early DB.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by kn83 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:57 pm

sintzu wrote:
kn83 wrote:The Super manga is in many ways worse than the anime, especially when it comes to the Black arc.
I think the manga's Black arc is a huge improvement over the anime's as the pacing is better and things make more sense.
The manga version ruined Black's character, turning him into a generic brute that loses his shit whenever things don't go his way (which we've seen hundreds of times already) as opposed to the claim and charismatic badass that was always one step ahead of the heroes in the anime. It also removed much of the character interaction between Trunks, Mai and Bulma, which was part of what made the anime version of the Black arc enjoyable.

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Re: i think Akira's time is over with the Dragonball series

Post by PFM18 » Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:01 pm

kn83 wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
It isn't necessarily an excuse. i am not excusing anything considering I didn't concede the notion that Super needs fixing and then make an excuse for it. I was just trying to rationalize the hatred for it because I don't really understand it. Like I said episode 130 is to many(including me) the single greatest episode of the entire franchise. And for good reason it had everything going for it. If anything the story elements have progressed further especially from the painfully generic villain who is "evil just for the sake of being evil" in contrast with Zamasu and his motives and Jiren being the main antagonist but still a good person.
You never just had just 'evil for the sake of being evil' characters considering Majin Vegeta, Roshi, Tenshinhan, the androids, Piccolo and Mr. Boo were all antagonists in the original series. 130 is everything but good in terms of its writing. It's a vast departure from the way that the original series portrayed itself and it seems to me more like a ploy to grab the fans of modern, lesser Shounen that rely heavily on emotional manipulation and melodrama masquerading as 'deep' character drama to gain viewers. I won't blame this on Toriyama though; I'm almost sure it was Toei's doing, but this doesn't excuse Toriyama's terrible plot points and ideas all throughout the modern DB revival, starting with Resurrection 'F' way back in 2015.
Saiyan saga Vegeta, Piccolo and his dad, The Crane School, Frieza, The Red Ribbon army, The Future Androids, Cell, Evil Buu, anyone from the movies and the Shadow Dragons were all "evil for the sake of being evil" characters, so stop lying to yourself. Roshi was never an antagonist/villain in the first place either. Jiren (who isn't even a villain), Goku Black and Zamasu are all types of antagonist that Dragonball had never seen before and had better motivations for who they are than the majority of the original villains. Even TeamFourStar of all people pointed that out. Trying to downplay the quality of ep.130 show how blinded by nostalgia you are. And what exactly is so "cheap" about the way Jiren was potrayed in ep.130, what exactly was the major writing problems? Goku vs Jiren was essentially a fight between different ideals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyaKrvRipXY, rather than the usual battle between good vs evil. Its like these delusional nostalgia-tards refuse to admit it whenever Super does anything better than Z and Early DB.
I 100% agree with everything you said outside of Roshi never being an antagonist. Roshi was an antagonist during the first tenkaichi budokai but there was absolutely nothing involved in the dynamic like we have with Jiren vs Goku. Jiren and Zamasu are far more original than any of the villians previously shown in the series. The ideals of Jiren clashes with the ideals of Goku extremely well and it gives a different dynamic fighting agianst somebody who isn't inherently evil. People seem to think he's evil after attacking the stands but I don't think so because A. he is fighting for his life and he thought that could possibly be a way to take away goku's advantage of the crowd cheering for him. B. or he knew that the angels on the sideline mean that Goku's friends were never actually in danger and he wanted to prove the point that they could be gone in an instant.

and while this may not be entirely applicable to everybody in this thread or anything like that but I think a lot of people are blinded by nostalgia when comparing Super to dbz and odb. They see DBZ as this flawless diamond and automatically seeing Super inferior in comparison. In several aspects Super has brought entirely new interesting elements to the Dragon Ball franchise that it is hardly given credit for. Why? Because it doesn't give them that feeling that they remember when they were a kid watching DBZ for the first time.

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